The Misinformation Around Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith Young

[USU78]

God commanded it in the case of levirate marriages at the very least.

Given the legal background in which the Hagar incident occurred, the same argument can be made for G-d having commanded that Abraham accede to his wife's contractual* demand that he father a son on her slave woman.

*A "Sarah Marriage Contract" has been unearthed containing a "no refund, no return of dowry or wife" clause for infertile aristocratic brides dating to the right time and occurring in the right place for Sarah to have had such a wedding contract clause's protection.

[Stone holm]

Given the legal background in which the Hagar incident occurred, the same argument can be made for G-d having commanded that Abraham accede to his wife's contractual* demand that he father a son on her slave woman.

*A "Sarah Marriage Contract" has been unearthed containing a "no refund, no return of dowry or wife" clause for infertile aristocratic brides dating to the right time and occurring in the right place for Sarah to have had such a wedding contract clause's protection.

Yeah I wonder how well that works in a tribe where the Patriarch feels comfortable with strolling off to sacrifice his son?

[USU78]

Yeah I wonder how well that works in a tribe where the Patriarch feels comfortable with strolling off to sacrifice his son?

Looks like an inapposite aside to me.

[Closet Doubter]

And IMNSHO it is totally irrelevant today.

How is whether or not God commanded polygamy or merely allowed polygamy irrevelent today? This either true doctrine or false doctrine has impacted the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. It continues to impact the lives of thousands of people today that believe in the gospel just as much as you or I do but believe the mainstream church went apostate in the late 1900's. It impacts the entire credibility of whether or not we should follow the prophet. If the prophet could teach a false doctrine that had such over-reaching impact as Polygamy then in what other areas can we be led astray.

BTW, my favorite section in the D&C is section 107 because it lays out the method for assuring false doctrine doesn't get taught. The prophet by himself can't just declare doctrine, it has to be approved by the full first presidency and if the three of them are decieved, the quorum of 12 as a quorum can overturn the doctrine. The Lord set up a procedure to follow because he realized that any individual including the prophet can be deceived. It is even possible that 3 imperfect individuals in the first presidency can make a mistake, but it would be very difficult for the entire top 15 leaders to collectively make a mistake. The relevance of whether or not polygamy was a mistake might be that we need to learn to follow the procedure laid out by the Lord in D&C 107 and if it had been followed, we at least wouldn't have had polygamy until 1852 and probably wouldn't have had it at all because William Law of the first presidency would not have felt the need to leave the Church over what he strongly considered a false doctrine that was being taught in secret and lied about in public.

[ERayR]

How is whether or not God commanded polygamy or merely allowed polygamy irrevelent today? This either true doctrine or false doctrine has impacted the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. It continues to impact the lives of thousands of people today that believe in the gospel just as much as you or I do but believe the mainstream church went apostate in the late 1900's. It impacts the entire credibility of whether or not we should follow the prophet. If the prophet could teach a false doctrine that had such over-reaching impact as Polygamy then in what other areas can we be led astray.

There is no practice of polygamy today. Whether it was right or wrong does not affect me today. Polygamy issues are totally irrelevant now. The most relevant questions are 1) have you had a personal revelation of the truthfulness of the gospel? 2) Do you accept it as true? If polygamy were to be reintroduced as a practice of the Church and you were asked to live it then it would become relevant.

[Kenngo1969]

You just got a break. Mostly because I didn't know I belonged to an "ilk". I once joined the "Elks" of the Elks of Canada, but I presume you mean something else.

But your right, of course, I shouldn't have used the comparison of belief to reality. I meant belief and delusion. If you go back and exchange where you used "reality" and replace it with "delusion" you'll see how better it fits.

I disagree. I think either word shows a remarkable misunderstanding of the nature of belief and is disrespectful of believers. Either word conveys the message that believers are poor, benighted souls, and alas, only the truly enlightened can see the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, faith in Jesus Christ, and belief in and adherence to religious tenets for what they are. My point still stands

P.S.: Not even most mental health professionals today equate religious belief and practice with delusion. You obviously know better than they. Congratulations.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

There is no practice of polygamy today. Whether it was right or wrong does not affect me today. Polygamy issues are totally irrelevant now. The most relevant questions are 1) have you had a personal revelation of the truthfulness of the gospel? 2) Do you accept it as true? If polygamy were to be reintroduced as a practice of the Church and you were asked to live it then it would become relevant.

But ya hafta Monog before you can Polyg!

Sincerely,

The Board’s Resident Confirmed Bachelor (and yes, there is such an ordinance in the Church; while I don’t remember having received that ordinance, I must have, given the fact that The Female of the Species ™ is not only content, but downright bound and determined to ignore me! )

[SeekingUnderstanding]

There is no practice of polygamy today. Whether it was right or wrong does not affect me today. Polygamy issues are totally irrelevant now.

This is not strictly true. Most members believe in polygamy in the eternities. Elder Oaks in 2002 said "When I was 66, my wife June died of cancer. Two years later—a year and a half ago—I married Kristen McMain, the eternal companion who now stands at my side"

My wife and many women I know have expressed concerns about having to share their husbands in the eternities. This is something that really impacts them in the here and now and many women struggle with the idea of sharing their spouse.

[ERayR]

This is not strictly true. Most members believe in polygamy in the eternities. Elder Oaks in 2002 said "When I was 66, my wife June died of cancer. Two years later—a year and a half ago—I married Kristen McMain, the eternal companion who now stands at my side"

My wife and many women I know have expressed concerns about having to share their husbands in the eternities. This is something that really impacts them in the here and now and many women struggle with the idea of sharing their spouse.

You conflate believing with the practice. Unless you are called on to practice it it has no relevancy to you.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

You conflate believing with the practice. Unless you are called on to practice it it has no relevancy to you.

Yet we do indeed practice / expect to practice celestial polygamy which has a real mental impact on people in the here and now. Many people are in actuality sealed to two different people, so I can't see how you can say it is not relevant to them.

[teddyaware]

But that doesn't make him perfect. We need to take Joseph at his word on this one. In fact, one problem that he faced were people thinking that he should be perfect or above the standard of human behavior.

I don't believe he was perfect; and in my post, I neither said nor implied he was perfect,

[crixus]

Wow. I just came across this and I must say this is sad.

To throw a faithful man under the bus like that is just inexcusable. This is either blatant dishonesty or ignorance, take your pick.

This man's life of faith and service to the Church, along with his loyalty to his Prophet (allowing him to take his wife without putting up even an argument, let alone a fight) obviously meant very little to the Church, when all was said and done.

[ERayR]

Yet we do indeed practice / expect to practice celestial polygamy which has a real mental impact on people in the here and now. Many people are in actuality sealed to two different people, so I can't see how you can say it is not relevant to them.

The ones having the problem are not the ones practicing it as it exists today. Those who are having a problem need not worry about having to practice it because no one is coerced. Polygamy is neither taught nor practiced as a church today.

[ERayR]

Wow. I just came across this and I must say this is sad.

To throw a faithful man under the bus like that is just inexcusable. This is either blatant dishonesty or ignorance, take your pick.

This man's life of faith and service to the Church, along with his loyalty to his Prophet (allowing him to take his wife without putting up even an argument, let alone a fight) obviously meant very little to the Church, when all was said and done.

What nobody takes into account is that we don't have any idea what kind of marriage they had. Given the rate of failure of monogamous today I am sure some were less than harmonious. So while we are pretending to know what Joseph and Brigham were thinking lets just pretend that maybe Zina's marriage was not a harmonious one and she would rather have a polygamous one than what she had. And just for arguments sake lets say that Jacobs agreed. Now I have no way of knowing if this scenario is true but it has just as much going for it as most of the other speculation.

[crixus]

What nobody takes into account is that we don't have any idea what kind of marriage they had. Given the rate of failure of monogamous today I am sure some were less than harmonious. So while we are pretending to know what Joseph and Brigham were thinking lets just pretend that maybe Zina's marriage was not a harmonious one and she would rather have a polygamous one than what she had. And just for arguments sake lets say that Jacobs agreed. Now I have no way of knowing if this scenario is true but it has just as much going for it as most of the other speculation.

The problem is this publication didn't present it as "speculation." It presented it as fact. It dragged this man's good name through the mud for no good reason. There is no evidence to support the accusation, but it does serve the purpose of putting a silver lining on the polygamy, by suggesting the Prophet was saving this poor woman from an awful marriage. There is no evidence anywhere, from neither the Prophet, from Jacobs, nor from his wife, indicating he was derelict in his duties as husband.

[canard78]

There is no practice of polygamy today. Whether it was right or wrong does not affect me today. Polygamy issues are totally irrelevant now. The most relevant questions are 1) have you had a personal revelation of the truthfulness of the gospel? 2) Do you accept it as true? If polygamy were to be reintroduced as a practice of the Church and you were asked to live it then it would become relevant.

Actually there are two forms of polygamy practiced today:

1) First sealed wife dies, man can get sealed to a second wife for eternity.

2) Civil divorce but no annulment, man can get sealed to a second wife for eternity (I have a friend in this situation).

[Kenngo1969]

Whatever problems Sister Zina, Brother Henry, Brother Joseph, and Brother Brigham may have had relative to their relationships with one another, I'm sure that those problems have long since been ironed out ... or if not yet, that they will be.

[ERayR]

Whatever problems Sister Zina, Brother Henry, Brother Joseph, and Brother Brigham may have had relative to their relationships with one another, I'm sure that those problems have long since been ironed out ... or if not yet, that they will be.

May I add my perspective? These problems will be ironed out between them and has no relevancy to anyone else.

[ERayR]

Actually there are two forms of polygamy practiced today:

1) First sealed wife dies, man can get sealed to a second wife for eternity.

2) Civil divorce but no annulment, man can get sealed to a second wife for eternity (I have a friend in this situation).

And how does Zina and Henry and Joseph and Brigham have any bearing on the above.

[ERayR]

The problem is this publication didn't present it as "speculation." It presented it as fact. It dragged this man's good name through the mud for no good reason. There is no evidence to support the accusation, but it does serve the purpose of putting a silver lining on the polygamy, by suggesting the Prophet was saving this poor woman from an awful marriage. There is no evidence anywhere, from neither the Prophet, from Jacobs, nor from his wife, indicating he was derelict in his duties as husband.

Cite please.

[Calm]

Yeah I wonder how well that works in a tribe where the Patriarch feels comfortable with strolling off to sacrifice his son?

I think that very much trivializes Abraham's experience. "Comfortable" is the last word I would use to describe his feelings.

[Questing Beast]

The problem is this publication didn't present it as "speculation." It presented it as fact. It dragged this man's good name through the mud for no good reason. There is no evidence to support the accusation, but it does serve the purpose of putting a silver lining on the polygamy, by suggesting the Prophet was saving this poor woman from an awful marriage. There is no evidence anywhere, from neither the Prophet, from Jacobs, nor from his wife, indicating he was derelict in his duties as husband.

Very true. And Zina's own explanation of how to live as a plural wife indicates that she preferred that, along with being married to a man with "higher priesthood", than continued marriage to Jacobs, who was probably too emotionally attached to her for her liking. Zina much later said that too many women in the Church were not in the right frame of mind vis-a-vis plural marriage, expecting romance and attention from their husbands. Plural wives had to be practical and suppress their emotions, be detached in their marriage relationships, in order for plural marriage to work. That kind of attitude would be a cold one in monogamy. Jacobs tried polygamy himself and failed at it. I think the evidence supports the view of a man who, while faithful to the "Lord's anointed", had problems with "the practice" for the rest of his life. He sent imploring letters to Zina, trying to get her to come to California and take up monogamy with him again. She was having none of it. The "fault" of the terminated marriage was hers not Jacobs'....

Edited June 5, 2013 by Questing Beast

[crixus]

Very true. And Zina's own explanation of how to live as a plural wife indicates that she preferred that, along with being married to a man with "higher priesthood", than continued marriage to Jacobs, who was probably too emotionally attached to her for her liking. Zina much later said that too many women in the Church were not in the right frame of mind vis-a-vis plural marriage, expecting romance and attention from their husbands.

So Jacobs was guilty of being too romantic and attentive towards his wife, and the Church spins this history to say he abandoned her.

The "fault" of the terminated marriage was hers not Jacobs'....

Deleted. You need to review the board guidelines.

[crixus]

Cite please.

You want me to cite that there is no evidence for what the Church claims?

[why me]

You want me to cite that there is no evidence for what the Church claims?

I think that we can find it in the Friend:

After Henry deserted Zina and the two little boys, Zebulon and Chariton, she married Brigham Young and crossed the plains to the Salt Lake Valley with his family. A few years later a daughter, Zina Presendia Young, was born.

https://www.lds.org/...-mercy?lang=eng

And this was in 1989 and written by Janet Peterson. I also know that this article is used by critics of the lds church to stress that he church lies about it. What I find amazing is when a writer writes an article and it is printed in a church magazine which has editors, etc, and this article has a 'mistake' suddenly it becomes a church leadership issue. Now of course, one can blame the writer and the editor but can one blame the church leadership? A possible mistake could not have been made by the writer with an oversight by the editor?

Here is a very simple version about her on the lds.org website.

Marriage and Family

Zina married Henry Bailey Jacobs on March 7, 1841. They had two sons but did not remain together. As a plural wife of Brigham Young, Zina had one daughter, and she raised four other children as her own after their mother died. Blessed with the gift of healing and limited medical training, Zina helped the sick and delivered countless babies. She died August 28, 1901, in Salt Lake City.

https://www.lds.org/callings/relief-society/relief-society-presidents/zina-h-young

Notice with this understanding Zina had the gift of healing.

Edited June 5, 2013 by why me