bcuzbcuz Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Dunno how bcuzbcuz can be so very certain of something, when his whole point about not believing is that nobody can be so very certain of something. Being certain is quite easy. I have seen death and experienced the loss of loved ones. Those are cold, hard facts. I have absolutely zero facts about the supposed idea of life after death. I could "choose" to have ideas about death that are comforting, trying, or willing myself to feel good about what I "hope" will be. But that would be like trying to believe in Santa Claus after you've seen who really puts the presents under the tree.We all make choices. You "choose" to believe. I "choose" not to.
bcuzbcuz Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 bcuxbcuz, I lost my first wife in 1988. The only "sting" is in missing her. It took a while to get over that. But I know I will, if I live worthily, be with her again in the next life. That is what the "o death, wher is thy sting" is all about.What bcuzbcuz and QB's remarks highlight though, is our own inability to really put ourselves in another's shoes. We do not have the background, the experiences to do so. Only a person who has conversed with God face to face, or has seen angels and received commandments and instructions from them can actually have any way to emphathize with the likes of Joseph, Moses, Nephi, etc. That is so many can make so light of their dilemma's.Only a person who has walked a mile in someone else's shoes can really understand what the other person is going through. A person who has not went through the utterly dibilitating hopelesness of a deep depression can really understand why all too many finally give up and take their own lives.No who has never had serious doubts about the gospel can understand how those with doubts can have those doubts.I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your first wife. I hope you have many good memories.Our view of that which follows after death, differ greatly. I had a grievance counsellor who told me, after my first wife's death, to "get over it" and wanted to help me write a personals ad to find someone new, so I agree that not everyone can imagine what death's sting is like. I just read your most recent post. And, yes, it is probably off topic, but I think I understand your sentiments. My children have been greatly, negatively, effected by the death of their mother. They have at times expressed a wish, almost a desire, to be able to spill their troubles in heart to heart conversations with their mother. In truth, I'm nowhere near the listener their mother was and do a poor job of filling in the gap. I, like most men, am a "fixer", someone who looks for solutions. My kids would rather have someone who doesn't try to fix things, just listen intently. That to me is the "sting of death". Once a person is gone, there is no plugging the hole.
bcuzbcuz Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 I understand you viewpoint a lot better now that you have enlightened us about your feelings and beliefs. There are times that I really wish you were right, when I really would like to "check out" of this life, to cease to exist completely. But I cannot afford to do that because of the knowledge I have gleaned from the Holy Ghost.But we are getting a bit off the track of the O.P. of this thread.GlennI responded just a few minutes ago after seeing this most recent post. I wonder if there are others here who share sentiments about recovering from the loss of a loved one?
blueadept Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 I had a grievance counsellor who told me, after my first wife's death, to "get over it" and wanted to help me write a personals ad to find someone new, ....IMHO, that grievance counsellor needs to find a new job. 2
USU78 Posted May 6, 2013 Posted May 6, 2013 Being certain is quite easy. I have seen death and experienced the loss of loved ones. Those are cold, hard facts. I have absolutely zero facts about the supposed idea of life after death. I could "choose" to have ideas about death that are comforting, trying, or willing myself to feel good about what I "hope" will be. But that would be like trying to believe in Santa Claus after you've seen who really puts the presents under the tree.We all make choices. You "choose" to believe. I "choose" not to.When you assert, as you did on the prior page, that there is nothing and that nobody can honestly believe in something you do more than choose for yourself. You choose for me and everybody else.I think you're quite wrong. But I do not choose for you when I assert that you're wrong. You might be right, but my experiences have taught me of possibilities that feel and smell and taste like TRVTH so much that those possibilities I know as much as I know anything. Kant called it "apprehension" in my collegiate translation: comprehension by other than material means. Interestingly, the old film Contact was on this morning while I was doing the garbage and the dishes and the rest of my morning ritual. Remember how the man of faith kept asking those impossible questions? If everything must be established by material means, how do you go about proving you love[d] your father? How do you go about proving the contact with the alien species during microseconds as materially measured, but that felt like hours to the participants?There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy.Radical materialism is not a philosophy I think very much of. 1
Questing Beast Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 And you came to this conclusion how? Did God tell you this?GlennNo more so than "God" told me Joseph Smith is a prophet and Jesus is the Christ, or that GtF is a glorified (once mortal) man. Or that the BoM is "true" in the dogmatically real history sense, ditto the Bible. And so it goes. "God" does not tell me anything in so many words. But my gut tells me that the evidence available for scrutiny does not support the notion that any religion is exclusively the "true faith", i.e. "the true and living church". Unless or until I come in possession of a stronger alternate feeling pointing me toward a specific religion I can't see me ever changing my mind (back) on this one....
Glenn101 Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 No more so than "God" told me Joseph Smith is a prophet and Jesus is the Christ, or that GtF is a glorified (once mortal) man. Or that the BoM is "true" in the dogmatically real history sense, ditto the Bible. And so it goes. "God" does not tell me anything in so many words. But my gut tells me that the evidence available for scrutiny does not support the notion that any religion is exclusively the "true faith", i.e. "the true and living church". Unless or until I come in possession of a stronger alternate feeling pointing me toward a specific religion I can't see me ever changing my mind (back) on this one....Thanks for your clarification. It is a gut feeling.Glenn
why me Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) Since they tend to misuse quotes (including IIRC sticking together comments made at different times as well as leaving out material that leads to an opposite conclusion of the one they are trying to present), it would be nice to get a more complete form. If you use such questionable sites, don't you think it is imperative to track down the original source to ensure that you are using it correctly and not just post it without a link?Here is part of it:http://en.fairmormon..._book/PolyandryAnother part: This part of the quote is from: Can't find the rest...anyone have In Sacred Loneliness at hand or Mormon Polygamy, the sources that site uses?It appears the pasted together quote from that site is from three different sources, one her autobiography, the other the interview and a third reference in I believe In Sacred Loneliness (hard to tell because the writer does not pinpoint which quotes are from which references...very sloppy but it allows him to make it appear to be one quote though it is many).I agree with this about the site and the quotation. However, it seems that the critics totally discount her spiritual experience with the principle of plural marriage. And this is very unfair toward zina and also unfair toward Joseph Smith and the others. I don't think that zina was a dupe but a rather spiritual person who had a wonderful spiritual experience through prayer. And yet, critics wish to paint her as a victim. The truth is very simple with zina: she was told about the principle, She prayed about the principle. She received a wonderful spiritual experience about the principle of polygamy. What is the problem then with zina and polygamy for the critics? Edited May 7, 2013 by why me
canard78 Posted May 7, 2013 Author Posted May 7, 2013 Even if God told you to do so, and you knew qithout a doubt that it was God? (And were living in Abraham's day)In the case pf polygamy, how compelling would it be to you if an angel were standing before you with a drawn sword ready to "cut you off" if you did not obey?Was God not in His right mind when He allowed His Only Begotten Son to scourged, mocked, and nailed to a cross? Or do you believe that story?Not criticising, just asking.GlennI wonder if Joseph remembered to ask the angel to shake hands. Apparently it's the only way to ensure it's not an evil spirit: 4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. 5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand. 6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear— 7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message. 8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him. 9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God. D&C 129How do you know it wasn't the devil as an angel of light? Or a vivid dream.
canard78 Posted May 7, 2013 Author Posted May 7, 2013 I've had the words "free agency" drilled into my head so many times growing up in this church, that it's difficult to believe an angel with a drawn sword appeared. Joseph just needed that emphasis so that the women would believe it. And he has told untruths before, or stories anyway. Maybe he felt it necessary to restore all things and was compelled to lie. Of course this is only my opinion.This is a fair point. He almost certainly made up the whole Zelph story. He might have made up the 'Adam's altar.' He certainly wasn't entirely open and honest about his polygamy practice. He seemed rather fond of the 'campfire story' approach. The 'sword wielding angel' approach may fit this mould.
Calm Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) I wonder if Joseph remembered to ask the angel to shake hands.I might be reluctant to ask if the sword was in the right hand....He went for several years (4 IIRC) between his first and next attempt at plural marriage, and again IIRC did several quite quickly (of the polyandry variety....perhaps as a way to fulfill the command without having to temporally live with them?) and then in the last two years of his life picked up the pace significantly.Seems to me something convinced him he better get going on it....He likely received the revelation in 1831, married Fanny Alger in 33, married Lucinda Harris (married) in 38, married Louisa Beaman (single) in 41, married Zina Jacobs and Presendia Buell (both married) in 41, in 42 married single, married 6 marrieds, one unknown, then around June 42 married 21 singles, 2 unknowns and 2 marrieds (if I have counted them right) by Nov 2, 1843, with 7 wives no significant info on as to timing.I find the pattern of timing combined with single and polyandrous wives very interesting. Edited May 7, 2013 by calmoriah
why me Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) I've had the words "free agency" drilled into my head so many times growing up in this church, that it's difficult to believe an angel with a drawn sword appeared. Joseph just needed that emphasis so that the women would believe it. And he has told untruths before, or stories anyway. Maybe he felt it necessary to restore all things and was compelled to lie. Of course this is only my opinion.The angel with a sword is from the bible. It also happened in the bible. For example here: http://bible.cc/1_chronicles/21-30.htm It is also here: http://bibleapps.com...icles/21-16.htm And here is a discussion about it on a christian forum: http://bibleforums.o...gels-use-swords Why couldn't it happen to Joseph? Critics make this sound like it was something unusual and yet, angels with swords are rather biblical. Perhaps David was a coward and used the sword image for his own inadequacy. Edited May 7, 2013 by why me
cdowis Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) How do you know it wasn't the devil as an angel of light? Or a vivid dream.Interesting. Do you also wonder if Paul saw an angel of light on the road to Damascus, or was a vivid dream. You would suppose that the entire Bible is built on such vivid dreams and campfire stories. Edited May 7, 2013 by cdowis
Storm Rider Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 The angel with a sword is from the bible. It also happened in the bible. For example here: http://bible.cc/1_chronicles/21-30.htm It is also here: http://bibleapps.com...icles/21-16.htm And here is a discussion about it on a christian forum: http://bibleforums.o...gels-use-swords Why couldn't it happen to Joseph? Critics make this sound like it was something unusual and yet, angels with swords are rather biblical. Perhaps David was a coward and used the sword image for his own inadequacy. Oh come now, let's not rely on the Bible to prove the Book of Mormon or that Joseph was a prophet. I wonder if Paul asked God to shake hands in his great theophany? Or if there really is a still, small voice. Heck, I have never seen anyone raised from the dead and everyone knew at the time that the Christians were all liars; there is no way Jesus was really raised from the dead. Faith is so easily lost; so easily tossed aside because each of us knows the arm of flesh has proved throughout history to be so reliable. The constant barrage of "I don't believe" gets a bit tiresome. 1
Tacenda Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 Oh come now, let's not rely on the Bible to prove the Book of Mormon or that Joseph was a prophet. I wonder if Paul asked God to shake hands in his great theophany? Or if there really is a still, small voice. Heck, I have never seen anyone raised from the dead and everyone knew at the time that the Christians were all liars; there is no way Jesus was really raised from the dead. Faith is so easily lost; so easily tossed aside because each of us knows the arm of flesh has proved throughout history to be so reliable. The constant barrage of "I don't believe" gets a bit tiresome.I believe... I believe!! Stormrider, I know there are those that seem to be a broken record of unbelief, but if JS wasn't so imperfect it'd be easier to trust him. He has told a whopper or two. In fact we don't know if he ever said "just kidding" on the Zelph story, that Canard brought up, and I had that in mind when posting my comment about Joseph using the sword as a leverage. Now I see where Joseph may have learned about it, thanks Why Me. But I will have to read those bible verses in context. I don't believe it happened where God commanded polygamy, especially with a sword. Not that Why Me said that. It really was frowned on, I thought. But apparently God merely allowed it, and there were consequences for living it in the bible.
ERayR Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 I believe... I believe!! Stormrider, I know there are those that seem to be a broken record of unbelief, but if JS wasn't so imperfect it'd be easier to trust him. He has told a whopper or two. In fact we don't know if he ever said "just kidding" on the Zelph story, that Canard brought up, and I had that in mind when posting my comment about Joseph using the sword as a leverage. Now I see where Joseph may have learned about it, thanks Why Me. But I will have to read those bible verses in context. I don't believe it happened where God commanded polygamy, especially with a sword. Not that Why Me said that. It really was frowned on, I thought. But apparently God merely allowed it, and there were consequences for living it in the bible.If Jesus hadn't been such a sabbath breaker, what with healing people on the sabbath and harvesting grain to eat as they walked, it would be easier to trust him. Zelph story is a non starter. Any information we have is third or fourth hand.
ERayR Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 This is a fair point. He almost certainly made up the whole Zelph story. He might have made up the 'Adam's altar.' He certainly wasn't entirely open and honest about his polygamy practice. He seemed rather fond of the 'campfire story' approach.The 'sword wielding angel' approach may fit this mould.He might have made up the whole thing just so he could be rich and famous. On the other hand he might not have made it up. Now that you are aware of it the real bummer is that you have to choose what you are going to do. Are you going to accept or reject. I guess you could straddle the fence but straddling the fence usually ends in a sore crotch.
bcuzbcuz Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 The angel with a sword is from the bible. It also happened in the bible. For example here: http://bible.cc/1_chronicles/21-30.htm It is also here: http://bibleapps.com...icles/21-16.htm And here is a discussion about it on a christian forum: http://bibleforums.o...gels-use-swords Why couldn't it happen to Joseph? Critics make this sound like it was something unusual and yet, angels with swords are rather biblical. Perhaps David was a coward and used the sword image for his own inadequacy. It amuses me that you would use First Chronicles and King David to illustrate the use of a sword by an angel to demonstrate that such things occur. Have you read the whole chapter? Did you read the part about 70,000 men being struck dead because David called for a census? And this should compare to Joseph being threatened in order to jump start Polyandry? I fail to see the comparison.
USU78 Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 It amuses me that you would use First Chronicles and King David to illustrate the use of a sword by an angel to demonstrate that such things occur. Have you read the whole chapter? Did you read the part about 70,000 men being struck dead because David called for a census? And this should compare to Joseph being threatened in order to jump start Polyandry? I fail to see the comparison.The Balaam incident might be more instructive and on point: When G-d wants you to do something, He sometimes sends an angel to make dang sure it gets done.Then there's, of course, Jonah: instead of an angel, He sends a storm, and then a big fish.Not every prophet is always immediately obedient.Makes one wonder why so much effort is being spent trying to make JSJr out to be a rat.
Questing Beast Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 ... it seems that the critics totally discount her spiritual experience with the principle of plural marriage. And this is very unfair toward zina and also unfair toward Joseph Smith and the others. I don't think that zina was a dupe but a rather spiritual person who had a wonderful spiritual experience through prayer. And yet, critics wish to paint her as a victim. The truth is very simple with zina: she was told about the principle, She prayed about the principle. She received a wonderful spiritual experience about the principle of polygamy. What is the problem then with zina and polygamy for the critics?I am a critic and I have never discounted Zina et al.'s "wonderful spiritual experiences about the principle of polygamy". I have never discounted JS's visions or revelations. I have never discounted my wife's repeated spiritual confirmation that the BoM is "true". She asked, as instructed, and she received an undeniable spiritual conviction that she has never denied throughout her life.But as I said to her again, only this morning, people ask and receive then they ask no more. If they asked more questions they would receive more answers. I always wanted to know if the LDS faith is the "only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth". That was always at the front of my mind when asking to know if the BoM is "true", if "JS is a prophet of God", etc. I never got a confirmation, no "burning bosom", or anything beyond silence and a feeling that the Church seems like a good idea. So do a lot of other things. But when I ask if all other religions are "true", guess what happens? I get a lot more certain in my feelings, and as time moves on that certainty grows with more evidence. So sure, Zina and my wife got answers of a strong spiritual nature to their questions. My questions were more complex, I guess, so no answers were forthcoming, because the premise of my questioning was different than Zina's or my wife's....
why me Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 It amuses me that you would use First Chronicles and King David to illustrate the use of a sword by an angel to demonstrate that such things occur. Have you read the whole chapter? Did you read the part about 70,000 men being struck dead because David called for a census? And this should compare to Joseph being threatened in order to jump start Polyandry? I fail to see the comparison.My point was rather simple. The use of a sword and an angel was not uncommon. God did use an angel and a sword to get his way. I think that death by sword is quite scary. A sword gets to the point. Critics can laugh at the angel and the sword take on it. But on the other hand, I can see this happening because Joseph did stop his own polygamy for a time to placate Emma.
why me Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 I believe... I believe!! Stormrider, I know there are those that seem to be a broken record of unbelief, but if JS wasn't so imperfect it'd be easier to trust him. He has told a whopper or two. . If Joseph were perfect I would trust him less only because I would know that since he were human, he must have been imperfect. Joseph himself admitted his imperfections. He was prone to anger and demonstrated this anger often. Did he lie? Yes. But who doesn't. Show me a person who says that they never lied, and I will show you a liar.
why me Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 Now I see where Joseph may have learned about it, thanks Why Me. But I will have to read those bible verses in context. I don't believe it happened where God commanded polygamy, especially with a sword. Not that Why Me said that. This passage is interesting. Maybe Joseph did not get it from any where but rather he experienced it as others did in the bible. I think that god can be rather hard on his prophets. A command is a command. Since it is claimed that Joseph had a first vision, I am sure that seeing this vision would have an impact on his mind.
why me Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 I am a critic and I have never discounted Zina et al.'s "wonderful spiritual experiences about the principle of polygamy". I have never discounted JS's visions or revelations. I have never discounted my wife's repeated spiritual confirmation that the BoM is "true". She asked, as instructed, and she received an undeniable spiritual conviction that she has never denied throughout her life.But as I said to her again, only this morning, people ask and receive then they ask no more. If they asked more questions they would receive more answers. I always wanted to know if the LDS faith is the "only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth". That was always at the front of my mind when asking to know if the BoM is "true", if "JS is a prophet of God", etc. I never got a confirmation, no "burning bosom", or anything beyond silence and a feeling that the Church seems like a good idea. So do a lot of other things. But when I ask if all other religions are "true", guess what happens? I get a lot more certain in my feelings, and as time moves on that certainty grows with more evidence. So sure, Zina and my wife got answers of a strong spiritual nature to their questions. My questions were more complex, I guess, so no answers were forthcoming, because the premise of my questioning was different than Zina's or my wife's....Maybe you need to simplify your questions. I would go on the good idea and ask another question from there. Not everyone gets the strong spiritual experience. The experience can come in small ways...at times it can even be unnoticed.I would see just what the church has done for the wife and how this translate into your own life and go from there. Also, to assume that only simple questions get the strong spiritual experience is a little problematic. I don't think that Zina asked simple questions. I think that they struggled over the issue and asked in sincerity if the principle was true and got a strong answer that it was.
why me Posted May 7, 2013 Posted May 7, 2013 The Balaam incident might be more instructive and on point: When G-d wants you to do something, He sometimes sends an angel to make dang sure it gets done.Then there's, of course, Jonah: instead of an angel, He sends a storm, and then a big fish.Not every prophet is always immediately obedient.Makes one wonder why so much effort is being spent trying to make JSJr out to be a rat.And here it is here: http://www.biblestudytools.com/numbers/22-23-compare.html Another angel and a sword appearing to a donkey.
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