Stuffing A Turkey Through The Beak: Leading With Doubt

[mfbukowski]

False. Responding sans reasoning to an off-topic declaration that was made sans reasoning, is not only entirely warranted, but respectful to the author of the thread.

Fallacious and misconstrued. There are different meanings, senses, and usages of the words "exist" and "God" in this context such that it doesn't necessitate a contradiction. Nor, did my statement have your misconstual in mind. However, I can accept that such nuanced notions may not compute in your seemly mono-dimensional, black/white mind. Oh well...

But, again, this is off topic, so I shan't say more.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Do unicorns "exist"? Most certainly- as an imaginary being pictured in art and literature. That's one obvious example. "Are they real or not?"

It depends on what you mean by "real"-

[mfbukowski]

X can not be both true and false.

Is the cat on the mat? True or false? Can't it be both at different times? These things are relative to a context as are all linguistic statements.

Truth is relative to the meaning of the sentence- nothing more nothing less. This guy needs to read some of Wittgenstein's later stuff

Edited April 12, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Jersey Girl]

Lol. Given Kerry has, I understand, declared a belief that there is no God, why would he consider his comments inspired by the spirit (apologies if I've mischaracterised your views Kerry)?

How is it that you "understand" that he has declared a belief that there is no God, when he's stated that exactly nowhere online that I or anyone else can see it? Has someone told you this second hand? Just curious...

Edited April 12, 2013 by Jersey Girl

[Jersey Girl]

Kerry, with all his decades of serious efforts with Mormonism, seems not to have grasped the essential intents and purpose of Mormonism, or even LDS apologetics for that matter. The gospel isn't about building strong intellectual argumentation, but about building strong spiritual character and relationship and joy. It isn't about trusting in man, but in God. It isn't about attacking and challenging opposing belief systems or disbelief system (we allow them the same right as us to worship how, where, or what they may), but about spreading the good news and bringing people to Christ. How he was so unable to see this with all his seeking, and get it so wrong, is a mystery for the ages. Perhaps one of his towering giants in Atheism can explain it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Why are you talking about him when you can address him directly on this thread?

[Jersey Girl]

I would respond to the OP but I will get banned from the thread, so what's the point of trying to assess this? I will assess it as I find time on my Facebook account. That way you CAN actually see what an honest analysis is rather than ululations and paeans of praise for very little reason. Sorry this board is so biased I am gunshy to try and actually have a conversation here. Holland spouts sloganeering all over the place with shallow analysis. You can read the indepth stuff on my Facebook when I get around to it. It's not all that good of a talk so it's not like I feel a need to make it a priority.

Your turn. :-)

I don't blame you for not wanting to discuss here since that can be a little tricky. It's not helpful to simply see an "honest analysis" when one cannot respond with questions or challenge. IOW, when you address an audience, many of whom are held captive without a voice or when the respondents are self selected.

In any case, I've read much of your recent expressions. I've read the comments of others to your commentaries in various locations online. For the life of me, I cannot understand why the board folks think they are seeing something new in you or why they think there is suddenly a new revelation in your life. All hail Kerry the apologist turned apostate! Depending on what "side" is transmitting--respect him! Pray for him! Pity him! Celebrate him!

What?

From what I can see, you are doing what you have always done, true to form in every respect. I'm surprised that no one sees it. Haven't they been reading you for the last 100 years? I guess not.

Oh, maybe a little "louder" than in the past.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Jersey Girl

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Kerry, with all his decades of serious efforts with Mormonism, seems not to have grasped the essential intents and purpose of Mormonism, or even LDS apologetics for that matter. The gospel isn't about building strong intellectual argumentation, but about building strong spiritual character and relationship and joy. It isn't about trusting in man, but in God. It isn't about attacking and challenging opposing belief systems or disbelief system (we allow them the same right as us to worship how, where, or what they may), but about spreading the good news and bringing people to Christ. How he was so unable to see this with all his seeking, and get it so wrong, is a mystery for the ages. Perhaps one of his towering giants in Atheism can explain it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I love it! This is what apologetics has been utterly reduced to, mere twaddle. So because my learning doesn't end up with the same conclusions you or other Mormon apologists do, I am the one who doesn't get it......got it! Thank you for absolutely affirming what the atheists say about how apologetics respond to the actual evidence and analysis, with mere ad hominim and red herring. Truly Wade........your non-response here is fascinating to me. I know, I used to think just like you did when I was accepting the irrational assertions of theology. The one thing I can honestly say about the atheists that I have begun to really LOVE them for is they have shown me how to finally learn to think. To use reason to assess what is said. To TEST all assertions, no matter who (pick yer holy man, I don't give a flip which one) says it. The issue is never who says what, the issue is how valid is what the holy man says based on our current best knowledge of how the world and universe actually works. Is there any actual basis of reality to the theological assertions? That is what is at issue, not whether poor Kerry (who's IQ I am sure is on the verge of being attacked because he no longer does Mormon group think, so obviously it too is lowering as all critics' IQ's do, according to the apologetic ad hominim assertion said in derision and ignorance) is missing the boat. That is what the actual thinker works on in understanding. And thus is my road I am on, a road of learning. It truly is delightful actually. I am astounded all the sudden I am seen as the enemy. I am simply doing what Joseph Smith advocated as did Brigham Young. But then again, as we all now know, they didn't really understand God and were merely presenting their own fallible and limited opinions, right? Now it is only necessary to have faith and believe. If I recall from the apologetic days, that is precisely what as an apologist I was fighting against in Protestantism. Now it's virus infected Mormonism and it's O.K.? Well, whatever you say man, carry on!

Edited April 13, 2013 by Kerry A. Shirts

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Your turn. :-)

I don't blame you for not wanting to discuss here since that can be a little tricky. It's not helpful to simply see an "honest analysis" when one cannot respond with questions or challenge. IOW, when you address an audience, many of whom are held captive without a voice or when the respondents are self selected.

In any case, I've read much of your recent expressions. I've read the comments of others to your commentaries in various locations online. For the life of me, I cannot understand why the board folks think they are seeing something new in you or why they think there is suddenly a new revelation in your life. All hail Kerry the apologist turned apostate! Depending on what "side" is transmitting--respect him! Pray for him! Pity him! Celebrate him!

What?

From what I can see, you are doing what you have always done, true to form in every respect. I'm surprised that no one sees it. Haven't they been reading you for the last 100 years? I guess not.

Oh, maybe a little "louder" than in the past.

Hi Jersey Girl! Hope all is well. Yes, I am continuing to learn, but my conclusions don't match group think conclusions, so I am seen as being whacko or better yet, now a mere, to quote Jeffrey R. Holland in a hilarious interview he held and got slapped silly in, a "Dodo." Nah, learning is fun, testing assertions and assumptions is absolutely necessary, and having faith in no evidence simply is irrational. If I have learned anything this last year it is that. God bless!

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Do unicorns "exist"? Most certainly- as an imaginary being pictured in art and literature. That's one obvious example. "Are they real or not?"

It depends on what you mean by "real"-

The rhinocerus is one candidate for the "unicorn." The Narwhal is another. However, if we are talking the white horse with a horn out of the center of its forehead, then, no, in reality, the unicorn is merely imaginary.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Kerry A. Shirts

[Jersey Girl]

Hi Jersey Girl! Hope all is well. Yes, I am continuing to learn, but my conclusions don't match group think conclusions, so I am seen as being whacko or better yet, now a mere, to quote Jeffrey R. Holland in a hilarious interview he held and got slapped silly in, a "Dodo." Nah, learning is fun, testing assertions and assumptions is absolutely necessary, and having faith in no evidence simply is irrational. If I have learned anything this last year it is that. God bless!

Okay, here it comes. I think that some of your conclusions DO equal group think. Show me where I can debate you on that and I'll be glad to show up.

[Jersey Girl]

Oh, your piece on spirituality. Yeah, that one.

[volgadon]

I love it! This is what apologetics has been utterly reduced to, mere twaddle. So because my learning doesn't end up with the same conclusions you or other Mormon apologists do, I am the one who doesn't get it......got it! Thank you for absolutely affirming what the atheists say about how apologetics respond to the actual evidence and analysis, with mere ad hominim and red herring.

Kerry, this sweeping dismissal is, ironically, ad hominem.

[canard78]

How is it that you "understand" that he has declared a belief that there is no God, when he's stated that exactly nowhere online that I or anyone else can see it? Has someone told you this second hand? Just curious...

I've been corrected on this by Kerry in this thread. I had misunderstood some previous posts on this board. I tried to edit my previous speculative post but the edit deadline had passed.

Some previous posts such as this one might have suggested he was:

But posts like this clarified his position then: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58558-im-not-an-atheist/

And his post above is his position now.

Edited April 13, 2013 by canard78

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I honestly do not not believe in God. What I don't believe is all the theological assertions/speculations concerning God that are so incoherent, contradictory, and simply wrong. Theology has never gotten it correct, not even in Mormonism which is as messy, incoherent, and illogical as anything anywhere else. The real problem for us is that mankind has simply projected himself onto an ideal man and called it God. We haven't been able to make any coherent sense of it ever since. It's not God I disbelieve, but all the contradictory teachings from theology in the various religions. And all claiming that God told em that was the truth. God appears to me to be the ultimate author of complete confusion. I am just not able to defend the indefensible anymore is all. Spiritual communication is simply a manmade doctrine to keep the rest of us in line with whatever theology is being espoused through one of the multitudinous thousands of organized religions. All of them claim God through his spirit has told them the truth. So they cannot be trusted. And, if God were real, he can't be trusted either. So, well.....there ya have it. Dan Barker, the former Evangelical preacher turned atheist in his book "Godless," really tells the issue quite strongly. You wanna see a Mormon missionary? There he is. His religion is exactly like ours, revealed to him by God through the Holy Ghost, or Spirit and Light of Christ, whatever you want to call it. And I guarantee none of us would have believed him either. God hasn't helped anything once one just opens their eyes to the evidence of the many religions and their silly theological assertions that have no evidence. I am simply observing the evidence, and it's not conducive to God's reality, especially not the pronouncement that God has infinite love for all. That is just bald assertion and is directly and decisively refuted by the world we can see right in front of our eyes. If we can shut our eyes, plug our eyes and scream la la la la all day in order to proclaim such an obvious falsehood, then heck man, we can say anything we want about God, theology, as well as anyone else, and we'd all be correct. The fact is, we are all, everyone of us, simply wrong.

And the fascinating thing is, Mormonism has not clarified the picture at all for the other religions. It has ended up being just another voice in the cacophany of competition in theology and religion. It hasn't solved anything for the world. The world still believes its own versions of God. And why not? He revealed himself to them as well. Too bad he can't get the message the same for all. Perhaps it is the theology assumption that is wrong. Perhaps there is no uniformity of knowledge or understanding about God. You certainly can't find such either between the religions or within them. The evidence simply doesn't give us a justified, actual picture of a reality we label as God. How could it, since it is merely man presenting himself ideologically in his wishful thinking that things were not as they actually are. The problem is, things really are, just as they are. And this reality doesn't fit any theology in existence.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Kerry A. Shirts

[Jersey Girl]

I've been corrected on this by Kerry in this thread. I had misunderstood some previous posts on this board. I tried to edit my previous speculative post but the edit deadline had passed.

Some previous posts such as this one might have suggested he was: http://www.mormondia...entry1209155928

But posts like this clarified his position then: http://www.mormondia...not-an-atheist/

And his post above is his position now.

kthanks

[Duncan]

I honestly do not not believe in God. What I don't believe is all the theological assertions/speculations concerning God that are so incoherent, contradictory, and simply wrong. Theology has never gotten it correct, not even in Mormonism which is as messy, incoherent, and illogical as anything anywhere else. The real problem for us is that mankind has simply projected himself onto an ideal man and called it God. We haven't been able to make any coherent sense of it ever since. It's not God I disbelieve, but all the contradictory teachings from theology in the various religions. And all claiming that God told em that was the truth. God appears to me to be the ultimate author of complete confusion. I am just not able to defend the indefensible anymore is all. Spiritual communication is simply a manmade doctrine to keep the rest of us in line with whatever theology is being espoused through one of the multitudinous thousands of organized religions. All of them claim God through his spirit has told them the truth. So they cannot be trusted. And, if God were real, he can't be trusted either. So, well.....there ya have it. Dan Barker, the former Evangelical preacher turned atheist in his book "Godless," really tells the issue quite strongly. You wanna see a Mormon missionary? There he is. His religion is exactly like ours, revealed to him by God through the Holy Ghost, or Spirit and Light of Christ, whatever you want to call it. And I guarantee none of us would have believed him either. God hasn't helped anything once one just opens their eyes to the evidence of the many religions and their silly theological assertions that have no evidence. I am simply observing the evidence, and it's not conducive to God's reality, especially not the pronouncement that God has infinite love for all. That is just bald assertion and is directly and decisively refuted by the world we can see right in front of our eyes. If we can shut our eyes, plug our eyes and scream la la la la all day in order to proclaim such an obvious falsehood, then heck man, we can say anything we want about God, theology, as well as anyone else, and we'd all be correct. The fact is, we are all, everyone of us, simply wrong.

And the fascinating thing is, Mormonism has not clarified the picture at all for the other religions. It has ended up being just another voice in the cacophany of competition in theology and religion. It hasn't solved anything for the world. The world still believes its own versions of God. And why not? He revealed himself to them as well. Too bad he can't get the message the same for all. Perhaps it is the theology assumption that is wrong. Perhaps there is no uniformity of knowledge or understanding about God. You certainly can't find such either between the religions or within them. The evidence simply doesn't give us a justified, actual picture of a reality we label as God. How could it, since it is merely man presenting himself ideologically in his wishful thinking that things were not as they actually are. The problem is, things really are, just as they are. And this reality doesn't fit any theology in existence.

What about Jesus? What are your thoughts on him?

Edited April 13, 2013 by Duncan

[Jersey Girl]

I honestly do not not believe in God. What I don't believe is all the theological assertions/speculations concerning God that are so incoherent, contradictory, and simply wrong. Theology has never gotten it correct, not even in Mormonism which is as messy, incoherent, and illogical as anything anywhere else. The real problem for us is that mankind has simply projected himself onto an ideal man and called it God. We haven't been able to make any coherent sense of it ever since. It's not God I disbelieve, but all the contradictory teachings from theology in the various religions. And all claiming that God told em that was the truth. God appears to me to be the ultimate author of complete confusion. I am just not able to defend the indefensible anymore is all. Spiritual communication is simply a manmade doctrine to keep the rest of us in line with whatever theology is being espoused through one of the multitudinous thousands of organized religions. All of them claim God through his spirit has told them the truth. So they cannot be trusted. And, if God were real, he can't be trusted either. So, well.....there ya have it. Dan Barker, the former Evangelical preacher turned atheist in his book "Godless," really tells the issue quite strongly. You wanna see a Mormon missionary? There he is. His religion is exactly like ours, revealed to him by God through the Holy Ghost, or Spirit and Light of Christ, whatever you want to call it. And I guarantee none of us would have believed him either. God hasn't helped anything once one just opens their eyes to the evidence of the many religions and their silly theological assertions that have no evidence. I am simply observing the evidence, and it's not conducive to God's reality, especially not the pronouncement that God has infinite love for all. That is just bald assertion and is directly and decisively refuted by the world we can see right in front of our eyes. If we can shut our eyes, plug our eyes and scream la la la la all day in order to proclaim such an obvious falsehood, then heck man, we can say anything we want about God, theology, as well as anyone else, and we'd all be correct. The fact is, we are all, everyone of us, simply wrong.

And the fascinating thing is, Mormonism has not clarified the picture at all for the other religions. It has ended up being just another voice in the cacophany of competition in theology and religion. It hasn't solved anything for the world. The world still believes its own versions of God. And why not? He revealed himself to them as well. Too bad he can't get the message the same for all. Perhaps it is the theology assumption that is wrong. Perhaps there is no uniformity of knowledge or understanding about God. You certainly can't find such either between the religions or within them. The evidence simply doesn't give us a justified, actual picture of a reality we label as God. How could it, since it is merely man presenting himself ideologically in his wishful thinking that things were not as they actually are. The problem is, things really are, just as they are. And this reality doesn't fit any theology in existence.

Did you want someone to point out the contradictions in your post, challenge your assertions or did you just want us to "listen with our eyes" and leave it at that?

You spent years of your life defending Mormonism, researching everything you could get your hands on, "burning the box" as it were, and I see no evidence in your comments above that you are open to challenge of these ideas. I see you simply regurgitating every skeptical position that I've ever seen online. You've built a new box and sealed off the lid.

Debate or not. Spirituality.

You choose.

Or simply espouse what you've been conditioned to think and let the flatterers tell you how smart you are....now.

[Tacenda]

Kerry, I think you made an error in that first sentence because later on you state you believe in God just not all the different theology that goes with it.

Today in a third grade class I was subbing in, we were discussing an eagles vision compared to a humans and the differences. We read a passage that said an eagle has a third eyelid that goes across its eye to clean the dirt away so that it can see better in order to catch it's prey. It also has an oily substance along with the watery substance in order to see under water in the salty ocean. And this is one out of hundreds of examples of intrinsic creatures on the earth. Makes you wonder how evolution can do that. There just has to be something more to it.

[canard78]

I honestly do not not believe in God. What I don't believe is all the theological assertions/speculations concerning God that are so incoherent, contradictory, and simply wrong. Theology has never gotten it correct, not even in Mormonism which is as messy, incoherent, and illogical as anything anywhere else. The real problem for us is that mankind has simply projected himself onto an ideal man and called it God. We haven't been able to make any coherent sense of it ever since. It's not God I disbelieve, but all the contradictory teachings from theology in the various religions. And all claiming that God told em that was the truth. God appears to me to be the ultimate author of complete confusion. I am just not able to defend the indefensible anymore is all. Spiritual communication is simply a manmade doctrine to keep the rest of us in line with whatever theology is being espoused through one of the multitudinous thousands of organized religions. All of them claim God through his spirit has told them the truth. So they cannot be trusted. And, if God were real, he can't be trusted either. So, well.....there ya have it. Dan Barker, the former Evangelical preacher turned atheist in his book "Godless," really tells the issue quite strongly. You wanna see a Mormon missionary? There he is. His religion is exactly like ours, revealed to him by God through the Holy Ghost, or Spirit and Light of Christ, whatever you want to call it. And I guarantee none of us would have believed him either. God hasn't helped anything once one just opens their eyes to the evidence of the many religions and their silly theological assertions that have no evidence. I am simply observing the evidence, and it's not conducive to God's reality, especially not the pronouncement that God has infinite love for all. That is just bald assertion and is directly and decisively refuted by the world we can see right in front of our eyes. If we can shut our eyes, plug our eyes and scream la la la la all day in order to proclaim such an obvious falsehood, then heck man, we can say anything we want about God, theology, as well as anyone else, and we'd all be correct. The fact is, we are all, everyone of us, simply wrong.

And the fascinating thing is, Mormonism has not clarified the picture at all for the other religions. It has ended up being just another voice in the cacophany of competition in theology and religion. It hasn't solved anything for the world. The world still believes its own versions of God. And why not? He revealed himself to them as well. Too bad he can't get the message the same for all. Perhaps it is the theology assumption that is wrong. Perhaps there is no uniformity of knowledge or understanding about God. You certainly can't find such either between the religions or within them. The evidence simply doesn't give us a justified, actual picture of a reality we label as God. How could it, since it is merely man presenting himself ideologically in his wishful thinking that things were not as they actually are. The problem is, things really are, just as they are. And this reality doesn't fit any theology in existence.

But the points being made on about page 4/5 and in the Holy Ghost different answers is exactly why we need divergent answers. There's no way a one-for-all model would work for 7 billion people.

I don't consider the LDS church to be the only expression of truth. Nor the only true and living church. But the truth for me. Leading too the ultimate truth. I don't think Mormonism fits most humans (99.5% of them). Cut to fit, personalised curriculum.

ETA: "Hoky Ghost" was a typo now fixed. No offence intended! What's that iphone autocorrect website?

Edited April 14, 2013 by canard78

[canard78]

Kerry, I think you made an error in that first sentence because later on you state you believe in God just not all the different theology that goes with it.

Today in a third grade class I was subbing in, we were discussing an eagles vision compared to a humans and the differences. We read a passage that said an eagle has a third eyelid that goes across its eye to clean the dirt away so that it can see better in order to catch it's prey. It also has an oily substance along with the watery substance in order to see under water in the salty ocean. And this is one out of hundreds of examples of intrinsic creatures on the earth. Makes you wonder how evolution can do that. There just has to be something more to it.

He used a double negative: "I honestly do not not believe in God" (in other words "I'm honestly not saying I don't believe in God")

[Tacenda]

He used a double negative: "I honestly do not not believe in God" (in other words "I'm honestly not saying I don't believe in God")

I guess I didn't see the extra "not", whoopsie.

[Tacenda]

Reading Hollands quote (out of context) on a FB post, it could also mean dwelling on the bad we do. I have a big mouth sometimes and commented in the negative about my 23 yr. olds choice of clothing and made him feel bad, I can't quit thinking about it and how I shouldn't look at the external so much.

[teddyaware]

I honestly do not not believe in God. What I don't believe is all the theological assertions/speculations concerning God that are so incoherent, contradictory, and simply wrong. Theology has never gotten it correct, not even in Mormonism which is as messy, incoherent, and illogical as anything anywhere else. The real problem for us is that mankind has simply projected himself onto an ideal man and called it God. We haven't been able to make any coherent sense of it ever since. It's not God I disbelieve, but all the contradictory teachings from theology in the various religions. And all claiming that God told em that was the truth. God appears to me to be the ultimate author of complete confusion. I am just not able to defend the indefensible anymore is all. Spiritual communication is simply a manmade doctrine to keep the rest of us in line with whatever theology is being espoused through one of the multitudinous thousands of organized religions. All of them claim God through his spirit has told them the truth. So they cannot be trusted. And, if God were real, he can't be trusted either. So, well.....there ya have it. Dan Barker, the former Evangelical preacher turned atheist in his book "Godless," really tells the issue quite strongly. You wanna see a Mormon missionary? There he is. His religion is exactly like ours, revealed to him by God through the Holy Ghost, or Spirit and Light of Christ, whatever you want to call it. And I guarantee none of us would have believed him either. God hasn't helped anything once one just opens their eyes to the evidence of the many religions and their silly theological assertions that have no evidence. I am simply observing the evidence, and it's not conducive to God's reality, especially not the pronouncement that God has infinite love for all. That is just bald assertion and is directly and decisively refuted by the world we can see right in front of our eyes. If we can shut our eyes, plug our eyes and scream la la la la all day in order to proclaim such an obvious falsehood, then heck man, we can say anything we want about God, theology, as well as anyone else, and we'd all be correct. The fact is, we are all, everyone of us, simply wrong.

And the fascinating thing is, Mormonism has not clarified the picture at all for the other religions. It has ended up being just another voice in the cacophany of competition in theology and religion. It hasn't solved anything for the world. The world still believes its own versions of God. And why not? He revealed himself to them as well. Too bad he can't get the message the same for all. Perhaps it is the theology assumption that is wrong. Perhaps there is no uniformity of knowledge or understanding about God. You certainly can't find such either between the religions or within them. The evidence simply doesn't give us a justified, actual picture of a reality we label as God. How could it, since it is merely man presenting himself ideologically in his wishful thinking that things were not as they actually are. The problem is, things really are, just as they are. And this reality doesn't fit any theology in existence.

What a wonderful message of hope this conveys to the human heart! All that utter nonsense about the enduring nature of faith, hope, perfect love, the goodness of God, celestial family life, and eternal glory doesn't even hold a candle to this bright and optimistic presentation on the meaning of existence and life! So logical, so beautiful, so inspiring, so motivating -- just perfect!

Edited April 13, 2013 by teddyaware

[Glenn101]

But the points being made on about page 4/5 and in the Hoky Ghost different answers is exactly why we need divergent answers. There's no way a one-for-all model would work for 7 billion people.

I don't consider the LDS church to be the only expression of truth. Nor the only true and living church. But the truth for me. Leading too the ultimate truth. I don't think Mormonism fits most humans (99.5% of them). Cut to fit, personalised curriculum.

Do you have a scriptural reference for your assertions? Is there any other God for us but Our Own Heavenly Father? Os there another Savior besides Jesus Christ? Is the atonement of Jesus for only .5% of the population? Did Jesus lie to Joseph in the vision n the grove? Or did Joseph Smith lie about it? Or was Joseph Smith just mistaken about what Jesus told him?

Glenn

[Glenn101]

And the fascinating thing is' date=' Mormonism has not clarified the picture at all for the other religions. It has ended up being just another voice in the cacophany of competition in theology and religion. It hasn't solved anything for the world. The world still believes its own versions of God. And why not? He revealed himself to them as well. Too bad he can't get the message the same for all. Perhaps it is the theology assumption that is wrong. Perhaps there is no uniformity of knowledge or understanding about God. You certainly can't find such either between the religions or within them. The evidence simply doesn't give us a justified, actual picture of a reality we label as God. How could it, since it is merely man presenting himself ideologically in his wishful thinking that things were not as they actually are. The problem is, things really are, just as they are. And this reality doesn't fit any theology in existence.[/quote']

Actually, the LDS faith does clarify the picture very well, but only if you subscribe to it. If you wish to promote atheist arguments here, you need to direct them against the LDS faith, and not generalize on all faiths. You have yet to make a coherent argument for any of the positions you are now advocating. You have not actually stated any position (except to say that we are wrong) to enagage. It is useless to declare all theology hopelessly wrong headed and completely illogical while holding up unnamed, unframed arguments as the holy grail of logic.

What you need to do is go back to your Mormonism Researched arguments and show us how logically wrong with those presentations, then show us how impeccable your new logic is now.

Glenn

[DBMormon]

I would respond to the OP but I will get banned from the thread, so what's the point of trying to assess this? I will assess it as I find time on my Facebook account. That way you CAN actually see what an honest analysis is rather than ululations and paeans of praise for very little reason. Sorry this board is so biased I am gunshy to try and actually have a conversation here. Holland spouts sloganeering all over the place with shallow analysis. You can read the indepth stuff on my Facebook when I get around to it. It's not all that good of a talk so it's not like I feel a need to make it a priority.

Kerry, This is Bill Reel. I disagree. Elder Holland's Talk was crucial. From one who has doubts at times he made those in the church who doubt no longer lepers. He gave me permission to have doubt and still be a full go member. He told my Brothers and sisters around me that they need to not look down on doubt. That one who doesn't know need not be offended at only having faith (hebrews 11:1) hoping or believing.

I feel like you have a habit of saying the talk is pointless to all simply because it doesn't address your needs. I would kindly disagree with that and let you know his talk meant a lot to me.

Edited April 13, 2013 by DBMormon