canard78 Posted April 15, 2013 Posted April 15, 2013 The mountain analogy can cover both at the same time....The mountain is tall beyond imagining and as one gets closer and closer to its exalted heights the choice in possible paths narrows until there is only one and as one gets near the top, one is actually stepping in the footprints of those who have gone before, doing exactly as they have done in order to reach the highest point.But on the wider foothills of the mountain and on its middle ranges, there are a multitude of paths that may lead one slowly upward though not as effective and quickly as the one, true path....the path that goes all the way to the top without deviation, the path which all those who lead closer to the top must eventually intersect with to actually get there. Some may need to leave that path for a time as they not able to endure the steepness of a particular section or need to build up their spiritual strength and endurance in order to make it up all the way and thus may take a longer, slower path for awhile (with the type of obstacles that they can manage and that push them in the areas they need to be pushed in to achieve a better overall spiritual physique), but the ultimate issue is whether or not someone keeps their eye on the highest point and does not allow themselves to linger too long or get too involved in the scenic moments or decides the leisurely pace of the foothills is too pleasant to leave or even worse, decides to wander off completely to see what is out on the plain giving up on the mountain as an impossible, impractical, unrealistic endeavour.Wade and Cal. Thanks for both your expansions on the analogy. Excellent. Really excellent. 1
Calm Posted April 15, 2013 Posted April 15, 2013 . In doing so,we may wind up on an entirely different mountain.If the Spirit is guiding our steps, why would we?
Glenn101 Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 If the Spirit is guiding our steps, why would we?That is the point. If we are being led by the spirit, we should not be on divergent paths. It is when we are not being led by the spirit that we can be led or just take off on our own, along divergent paths. I can find no scriptural support for a divergent but parallel path which eventually merges back with the straight and narrow.Glenn
canard78 Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 That is the point. If we are being led by the spirit, we should not be on divergent paths. It is when we are not being led by the spirit that we can be led or just take off on our own, along divergent paths. I can find no scriptural support for a divergent but parallel path which eventually merges back with the straight and narrow.GlennThen why would our prophets say otherwise:Elder Uchtdorf Latter-day Saints believe that all human beings are God’s children and that He loves all of us. He has inspired not only people of the Bible and the Book of Mormon but other people as well to carry out His purposes through all cultures and parts of the world. God inspires not only Latter-day Saints but also founders, teachers, philosophers, and reformers of other Christian and non-Christian religions. The restored gospel holds a positive relationship with other religions. Intolerance is always a sign of weakness. The Latter-day Saint perspective is that of the eleventh article of faith: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may” (Articles of Faith 1:11).The Church teaches that members must not only be kind and loving toward others but also respect their right to believe and worship as they choose. George Albert Smith, the eighth President of the Church, publicly advocated the official Church policy of friendship and tolerance: “We have come not to take away from you the truth and virtue you possess. We have come not to find fault with you nor to criticize you. . . . We have come here as your brethren . . . to say to you: ‘Keep all the good that you have, and let us bring to you more good, in order that you may be happier and in order that you may be prepared to enter into the presence of our Heavenly Father.’”On February 15, 1978, the First Presidency of the Church issued the following declaration: “The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. . . . Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are the sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.”
Glenn101 Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 You misunderstand me. One path, many vehicles to travel on the path. The path is the path to godliness. My vehicle is Mormonism. There are other vehicles.Please name the other vehicles that Christ has chosen.Not lying. Giving the right information to motivate action. As we see in D&C 19:6-7, God is the perfect communicator. What a limited human mind might see as lying is simply God being "more express... that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory."Again, if there were already vehicles in existence that would take people back to Christ, the restoration was not needed. Christ started only one church. Any other vehicle will not take one back to Christ, to exaltation, but can take one to the terrestrial or telestial kingdom.Glenn
Glenn101 Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 (edited) Then why would our prophets say otherwise:On February 15, 1978, the First Presidency of the Church issued the following declaration: “The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. . . . Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are the sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.”You seem to be confused on what they were actually saying. That "portion of God's spirit" is known as the light of Christ. Nowhere do our prophets day that those included alternative ways to exaltation.Glenn Edited April 16, 2013 by Glenn101
Questing Beast Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 (edited) Jesus said he brought a sword to divide families into those who would follow him and everybody else. Of course, that is the New Testament speaking, not God.I think we can allow good to exist equally where it is evident that good is in fact equal. Show me the inferiority in other faiths. Show me the inferiority in not adhering to any dogmatic faith. I look at people only, not their religious or non religious beliefs. If I can talk to another and agree that they are wanting good, it does not matter if they fail to some degree or utterly. Time moves on. We are still "here". Everyone can change and will do so.The "restoration" is a fact. But it isn't the only fact. Where other faiths ultimately lead their believers is not something we can assert to have knowledge of. This planet's temporal existence is, after all, a most brief thing, and we are all immortals. I cannot accept that "slow learners" don't have enough space-time with which to learn everything that they require to be as joyful as God Is.... Edited April 16, 2013 by Questing Beast
Kerry A. Shirts Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 You seem to be confused on what they were actually saying. That "portion of God's spirit" is known as the light of Christ. Nowhere do our prophets day that those included alternative ways to exaltation.GlennIt's amusing to see the condescending thinking of some LDS leaders when it comes to other people who were truly great in civilization like Socrates. So God gave him morals eh? Wasn't he homosexual?
Bikeemikey Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 (edited) It's amusing to see the condescending thinking of some LDS leaders when it comes to other people who were truly great in civilization like Socrates. So God gave him morals eh? Wasn't he homosexual?Yes there is a condescention amoung leadership, but what does intellectual greatness have to do with the conversation? Edited April 16, 2013 by Bikeemikey
Bikeemikey Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 Please name the other vehicles that Christ has chosen.Again, if there were already vehicles in existence that would take people back to Christ, the restoration was not needed. Christ started only one church. Any other vehicle will not take one back to Christ, to exaltation, but can take one to the terrestrial or telestial kingdom.GlennThe only vehilce that will get us to heaven is living according to the dictates of our conscience. Being true to yourself and your beliefs, whatever they are.
Glenn101 Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 The only vehilce that will get us to heaven is living according to the dictates of our conscience. Being true to yourself and your beliefs, whatever they are.I can't seem to find that chapter and verse. Could you clue me in? I could find nothing like that in the scriptures. I did a search for "true" and "to" and "yourself" and could not find that in the scriptures. Is this a new doctrine that has been revealed?Glenn 1
canard78 Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 Please name the other vehicles that Christ has chosen.Again, if there were already vehicles in existence that would take people back to Christ, the restoration was not needed. Christ started only one church. Any other vehicle will not take one back to Christ, to exaltation, but can take one to the terrestrial or telestial kingdom.GlennFirst, I'm talking about vehicles in mortality. We only have a vague understanding of the mechanics of the next life. The work we do in temples hints at this, but doesn't paint the full picture. "39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. (Pearl of Great Price, Moses, Moses 1)"Jesus taught that his "Sheep," from all nations, would get eternal life. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me....45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (New Testament, Matthew, Matthew 25)So... What vehicles are there that aid people in developing godliness through their service of others?Lots: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_RuleEven within Mormonism there are individualised vehicles towards being more sheeplike. Everyone has elements they put more or less effort into. There are many options within Mormonism to serve and none of us do them all. Saving our dead, home teaching, supporting missionaries, ferrying youth to dances, spending many hours in preparing lessons, organising compassionate service, working with bishops storehouse resources. Etc Etc. None of us do it all. We all use a vehicle of our own adaptation to try to avoid being tinkling brass. This doesn't make us cafeteria Mormons. Simply human.
Bikeemikey Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 I can't seem to find that chapter and verse. Could you clue me in? I could find nothing like that in the scriptures. I did a search for "true" and "to" and "yourself" and could not find that in the scriptures. Is this a new doctrine that has been revealed?GlennWe all have the light of christ. Moroni has a lot to say about that specific item.If we follow up honestly and with true intent we will end up being judged well by good... whether we were Mormon in this life will be irrelevant compared to earnestly seeking for and following the inspiration that comes from God.
Glenn101 Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 First, I'm talking about vehicles in mortality. We only have a vague understanding of the mechanics of the next life. The work we do in temples hints at this, but doesn't paint the full picture."39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. (Pearl of Great Price, Moses, Moses 1)"Jesus taught that his "Sheep," from all nations, would get eternal life.So... What vehicles are there that aid people in developing godliness through their service of others?Lots:http://en.m.wikipedi...iki/Golden_RuleEven within Mormonism there are individualised vehicles towards being more sheeplike. Everyone has elements they put more or less effort into. There are many options within Mormonism to serve and none of us do them all. Saving our dead, home teaching, supporting missionaries, ferrying youth to dances, spending many hours in preparing lessons, organising compassionate service, working with bishops storehouse resources. Etc Etc. None of us do it all. We all use a vehicle of our own adaptation to try to avoid being tinkling brass.This doesn't make us cafeteria Mormons. Simply human.You seem to be shifting the goal posts with each post. The sheep from all nations must still follow the path Christ laid out for us. He did not leave us any wiggle room there. Jesus set up His church and used the Prophet Joseph to restore it in these latter days. That is the vehicle that He wants us to use.Glenn
Glenn101 Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 We all have the light of christ. Moroni has a lot to say about that specific item.If we follow up honestly and with true intent we will end up being judged well by good... whether we were Mormon in this life will be irrelevant compared to earnestly seeking for and following the inspiration that comes from God.If we follow up honestly, and with real intent, after reading Moroni's exhortation, we will become LDS. We are back to square one.Glenn
Bikeemikey Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 (edited) If we follow up honestly, and with real intent, after reading Moroni's exhortation, we will become LDS. We are back to square one.GlennLets assume your statement is correct, that does not change the fact that it is irrelavent to the vast majority of the world that still have never read the book and asked about it. Maybe we will one day live in a world where every person has read and prayed about the book of mormon. That is however unlikely.Given that there are real conditions of moral action and conscience that allow us to stand before the judgement bar of god and return to him in the absence of experiencing the BOM while on this earth it is appropriate to consider that they may be.I believe they are simply to follow honesty and fully live the precepts of our conscience, whatever that may be... then we get to the interesting event where someones moral action and consience causes them to be disinterested in listening to the gospel... disinterested in praying about the BOM or even reading it.Would it not be arrogant for us to pronouce, on God's behalf, anything other than admiration for those whose faithfulness to their conscience and moral convictions causes them to be disinterested in entertaining opposing views?Sure, if we ask with real intent we will get the answer... The question is however, will be judged harshly for never being able to get develop intent due to pre-existing moral convictions? And if we are, will we how have asked with real intent then lost that open minded curiosity later as we become more orthodox be similarly judged? Edited April 16, 2013 by Bikeemikey
canard78 Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 You seem to be shifting the goal posts with each post. The sheep from all nations must still follow the path Christ laid out for us. He did not leave us any wiggle room there. Jesus set up His church and used the Prophet Joseph to restore it in these latter days. That is the vehicle that He wants us to use.GlennHow have I moved the goalposts? If you mean the question of vehicles on the path to godliness in mortality (not eternity) then apologies if I was ambiguous, I was always talking about mortality and might not have made this clear. We have little more than vague visions and speculation about what the next life will be like. Will there be "Mormonism" - I doubt it. Mormonism is an earthly and imperfect construct. A useful one, but stil an imperfect one. The church has stated:Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2)http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C14Actually, can I invite you to join the thread on Holy Ghost giving contradicting answers. We're discussing exactly the same thing and it's a little repetitive having the same conversation on two threads.Billions of people will live and die with no knowledge of Joseph Smith nor even Jesus Christ. It's not because they rejected it but because God sent them to a place where it wouldn't even register on their radar. Clearly Mormonism isn't God's only vehicle for helping his children along the path to godliness.
Duncan Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 How have I moved the goalposts? If you mean the question of vehicles on the path to godliness in mortality (not eternity) then apologies if I was ambiguous, I was always talking about mortality and might not have made this clear.We have little more than vague visions and speculation about what the next life will be like. Will there be "Mormonism" - I doubt it. Mormonism is an earthly and imperfect construct. A useful one, but stil an imperfect one.The church has stated:http://www.mormonnew...rmonism-101#C14Actually, can I invite you to join the thread on Holy Ghost giving contradicting answers. We're discussing exactly the same thing and it's a little repetitive having the same conversation on two threads.Billions of people will live and die with no knowledge of Joseph Smith nor even Jesus Christ. It's not because they rejected it but because God sent them to a place where it wouldn't even register on their radar. Clearly Mormonism isn't God's only vehicle for helping his children along the path to godliness.very true but thank heavens for the next life! Elder Orson F. Whitney said, “God is using more than one people for the accomplishment of his great and marvelous work. The Latter-day Saints cannot do it all. It is too vast, too arduous, for any one people.” So, personally I see The Gospel and the Church, to borrow an analogy from Truman Madsen, as a visiting Caesar-many roads to and from Rome but there is only one way to get in and see Caesar. Everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel plan, however and whenever it is presented to them 1
canard78 Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 very true but thank heavens for the next life! Elder Orson F. Whitney said, “God is using more than one people for the accomplishment of his great and marvelous work. The Latter-day Saints cannot do it all. It is too vast, too arduous, for any one people.” So, personally I see The Gospel and the Church, to borrow an analogy from Truman Madsen, as a visiting Caesar-many roads to and from Rome but there is only one way to get in and see Caesar. Everyone will have the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel plan, however and whenever it is presented to themLove the quote Duncan. Thanks.Given I'm trying to consolidate two similar conversations into one thread I'm going to copy your post over to the other thread.
canard78 Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 I stuff my self through the mouth all the timeGood! Better that than the way a thankgiving turkey gets it!!!!
thesometimesaint Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 Lets assume your statement is correct, that does not change the fact that it is irrelavent to the vast majority of the world that still have never read the book and asked about it. Maybe we will one day live in a world where every person has read and prayed about the book of mormon. That is however unlikely.Given that there are real conditions of moral action and conscience that allow us to stand before the judgement bar of god and return to him in the absence of experiencing the BOM while on this earth it is appropriate to consider that they may be.I believe they are simply to follow honesty and fully live the precepts of our conscience, whatever that may be... then we get to the interesting event where someones moral action and consience causes them to be disinterested in listening to the gospel... disinterested in praying about the BOM or even reading it.Would it not be arrogant for us to pronouce, on God's behalf, anything other than admiration for those whose faithfulness to their conscience and moral convictions causes them to be disinterested in entertaining opposing views?Sure, if we ask with real intent we will get the answer... The question is however, will be judged harshly for never being able to get develop intent due to pre-existing moral convictions? And if we are, will we how have asked with real intent then lost that open minded curiosity later as we become more orthodox be similarly judged?We will be judged on what light and truth we have been given.
wenglund Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 The only vehilce that will get us to heaven is living according to the dictates of our conscience. Being true to yourself and your beliefs, whatever they are."There is a alaw, irrevocably decreed in bheaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all cblessings are predicated—And when we obtain any ablessing from God, it is by bobedience to that law upon which it is predicated." D&C 130:20-21Thanks, -Wade Englund- 1
Tacenda Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 "There is a alaw, irrevocably decreed in bheaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all cblessings are predicated—And when we obtain any ablessing from God, it is by bobedience to that law upon which it is predicated." D&C 130:20-21Thanks, -Wade Englund-I really dislike this scripture because it is saying, to me, that we do things in order to get blessings and not because it's the right thing to do, never liked the comment from members...we do it to receive blessings. I usually never gave out rewards to my children because they should do something because it's the right thing not just to get something! But would give $ for extra jobs like mow the lawn etc.but not for cleaning rooms or the house. Can't stand giving rewards in primary to keep them from being noisy, maybe for doing something substantial.
Questing Beast Posted April 16, 2013 Posted April 16, 2013 I can't seem to find that chapter and verse. Could you clue me in? I could find nothing like that in the scriptures. I did a search for "true" and "to" and "yourself" and could not find that in the scriptures. Is this a new doctrine that has been revealed?GlennIt is the only "doctrine" that makes sense out of this world of individuals. Without that belief of being true to your authentic self as the core requirement/definition of "worthy before God", you are reduced (back) to looking for the only answers from the Judeo-Christian scriptures, which is giving into circular logic to justify your dogmatism. Anybody can be dogmatic and renounce all other beliefs that don't have "authority". Then you have a world of camps of separated dogmatists all pointing waging fingers at the rest and looking down their long noses. Religion that divides rather than unites is not of God. "We" have a long ways yet to go....
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