Stuffing A Turkey Through The Beak: Leading With Doubt

[Okrahomer]

I very much enjoyed Elder Holland’s talk today about faith. I felt he was spot on when he admonished us not to “lead with our doubts.”

“…when problems come and questions arise do not start your quest for faith by saying how much you do not have. That is like trying to stuff a turkey through the beak! I am not asking you to pretend to faith you do not have. I am asking you to be true to the faith you do have. Sometimes we act as if an honest declaration of doubt is a higher manifestation of moral courage than is an honest declaration of faith. It is not!”

Do any "here" disagree with Elder Holland? Why?

[Rivers]

I don't understand the the whole turkey stuffing analogy. Maybe somebody needs to explain it to me. I did, however, enjoy this talk. Elder Holland always gives great talks.

I found this one to be particularly remarkable.

This is a talk that definitely needed to be given. It was great to hear him address people who are struggling with faith. I loved the part where he told the story of hugging the young boy who said he couldn't say that he knew the church was true. It was a breath of fresh air to hear him say that it is ok if you aren't able to say "I know."

I also liked the part where he said that it is ok to have concerns and questions that need to be answred.

I agree with Elder Holland that what we do know is more important than what we don't know. Things that we do know can provide an anchor for us in the church and become a foundation for further light and knowledge.

[tyler90az]

I very much enjoyed Elder Holland’s talk today about faith. I felt he was spot on when he admonished us not to “lead with our doubts.”

“…when problems come and questions arise do not start your quest for faith by saying how much you do not have. That is like trying to stuff a turkey through the beak! I am not asking you to pretend to faith you do not have. I am asking you to be true to the faith you do have. Sometimes we act as if an honest declaration of doubt is a higher manifestation of moral courage than is an honest declaration of faith. It is not!”

Do any "here" disagree with Elder Holland? Why?

The talk was remarkable to say the least. Just wonder why he kept saying this is for the youth. Although one time he said it fits everyone. I think he was straddling the line of how everyone says I know. Therefore, he almost had to address it to the youth. It would be interesting to understand more about his choice of emphasizing the talk to the youth.

I think the statement you underlined varies from situation to situation. In a church setting most people do not have the moral courage to say they doubt or ask questions. I would say in most states and countries that statement is true. As far as Utah goes I would have to disagree.

It was also interesting to hear him say he gained faith when he was 14. I liked that part.

[Calm]

I don't understand the the whole turkey stuffing analogy. Maybe somebody needs to explain it to me.

I assume you know how to stuff a turkey. If not, see this video:

Assuming that one would even leave the head with the beak attached...which one doesn't, why would one bother to try and force the stuffing down to the cavity when it is so much more effective to do it the opposite way. I believe he is simply saying approaching a faith issue that way is making it much, much harder than one needs to.

Edited April 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[LDSGuy]

I'm probably a little partial to Elder Holland because he was my Area President in Chile on my mission. I always enjoy his talks, and he always has a great message delivered by the Spirit. He is plain and bold in his statements, and this talk was perfect for the times.

[Questing Beast]

I very much enjoyed Elder Holland’s talk today about faith. I felt he was spot on when he admonished us not to “lead with our doubts.”

“…when problems come and questions arise do not start your quest for faith by saying how much you do not have. That is like trying to stuff a turkey through the beak! I am not asking you to pretend to faith you do not have. I am asking you to be true to the faith you do have. Sometimes we act as if an honest declaration of doubt is a higher manifestation of moral courage than is an honest declaration of faith. It is not!”

Do any "here" disagree with Elder Holland? Why?

It was a figure of speech worthy of the prophet Joseph Smith. I enjoyed his talk quite a lot.

If I qualify anything Holland said, it is downplaying doubt to a nullity. "Ignore it", was the gist of Holland's advice. Doubt is every bit as real as faith. One defines the other. Doubt should never be ignored or denied. It has reasons for existing every bit as real and valid as faith. "Leading with your doubts" is sometimes impossible to avoid, because they get to be so big, because your mind has reasoned evidence, "facts", into a paradigm where doubt is the dominant factor. Too recant on all of your research and say that it doesn't mean anything is like a big lie. If the evidence points to a doubtful conclusion, despite all of your original good intentions to get more educated on Church history and personalities, because of a worthy desire to know more than you have known, and it all led you somewhere else, then to turn away from this is like lying to yourself. Holland is warning early doubters. His advice cannot reach "seasoned doubters", they have moved too far.

Faith is always there. Doubting is not a sin. Denying truth we feel to be real is a sin. So the doubter that turns craven and grasps at the shreds of a former faith, is worse off than before s/he started to learn through study.

If faith does not remain with study, then something is going wrong. Study should always lead to more study, never to conclusions. We never know enough in this world to draw conclusions. We should always look at where we are, what we know, as a "working hypothesis". If the working hypothesis seems to keep working then faith will increase in it. Many Mormons, et al. religious dogmatics go both ways: either sticking with the dogmatic paradigm, or allowing it to be modified by what they think they know from further evidence. The one thing that subverts either way is fear of the consequences. Daffy Duck has it right: "Consequences-shmonsequences, as long as I'm rich". That kind of dogged adherence to a decision, a value system, is the most direct road to discovery of truth. It is the wishy-washy, lukewarm, characterless life that doesn't even come to a deciding point on anything. That is why Jesus Christ said he would "spit you out of his mouth", if you are a drink of water, and are neither hot nor cold. Someone who is burning hot or freezing cold can tell from the extremism of their life's approach where the direction lies to a better way. Someone who just plods along without thinking isn't using either faith or doubt, they merely exist insensibly. Many prefer this netherworld to reality, because it does not demand anything from them. They want someone else to maneuver them through life's pitfalls and hard choices. Holland was talking to them, trying to get them to move by looking at their faith instead of their equally present doubts....

[thesometimesaint]

"Don't let what you can't do interfere with what you can do".

John Wooden.

[The Mean Farmer]

The talk was remarkable to say the least. Just wonder why he kept saying this is for the youth. Although one time he said it fits everyone. I think he was straddling the line of how everyone says I know. Therefore, he almost had to address it to the youth. It would be interesting to understand more about his choice of emphasizing the talk to the youth.

I think the statement you underlined varies from situation to situation. In a church setting most people do not have the moral courage to say they doubt or ask questions. I would say in most states and countries that statement is true. As far as Utah goes I would have to disagree.

It was also interesting to hear him say he gained faith when he was 14. I liked that part.

As the father of the a "Youth" that struggles the exact same way I think I understand. My Daughter reads her scriptures EVERY EVERY EVERY day! It is never too late for her to skip a day. She attends early morning seminary, goes to church etc.... yet she "believes", but doesn't exactly know the Church is what it claims to be. And she is struggling to lean on her parents testimony and we are both in the "Know" category. I fear she potentially thinks that she is wrong, inferior, maligned, or unloved by the Lord or by her parents because she doesn't state that she "Knows".

That isn't true and Elder Hollands talk will be part of our family discourse many many many times over the next 6 months. Mere belief is where we all start, I hope she is given her first dose of "Know" sooner rather than later. I don't want my kids to bloom later in life than I did in any respect.

[Lightbearer]

Excellent talk as usual (Elder Holland is my favorite speaker...he reminds me a lot of Elder Bruce R. McConkie). His remarks on doubt and how some (especially many on this very board) tend to look as doubt as a strength even a virtue, he hit it right on the mark. Doubt is the opposite of faith, not the steps to obtaining faith. He also was not advocating ignoring doubts, on the contrary he was saying we should do something about them by increasing our faith. We don't do that by our reading Anti-Mormon propaganda or listening to the ravings of the critics of the Chuch or the pride of the worldly. But we humble ourselves and listen to God and study what He has revealed to us. Only then can the seeds of faith grow. Allowing God to touch our hearts instead of hardening it against the spirit of God like Laman and Lemuel did. The writing of faithless critics has a predictable outcome, loss of the spirit, and stirring up to anger against the truth. When one reads "faith promoting" things it does just that, it invites the spirit. Why do you suppose no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God? The converse is true, when we draw near to the spirit of God then evil and darkness flees from us. Of course what Elder Holland said is not pleasing to the carnal mind or the natural man, because it rejects the forbidden paths of darkness and calls for repentance and following the Lord.

[pmccombs1]

I very much enjoyed Elder Holland’s talk today about faith. I felt he was spot on when he admonished us not to “lead with our doubts.”

“…when problems come and questions arise do not start your quest for faith by saying how much you do not have. That is like trying to stuff a turkey through the beak! I am not asking you to pretend to faith you do not have. I am asking you to be true to the faith you do have. Sometimes we act as if an honest declaration of doubt is a higher manifestation of moral courage than is an honest declaration of faith. It is not!”

Do any "here" disagree with Elder Holland? Why?

Yes, I disagree in part; and at the same time express admiration for the talk.

It's a matter of context, you see. In an environment where belief and faithfulness are all around, it takes little courage to be be believing and faithful. In an environment of disbelief and self-seeking, it takes little courage to doubt God. But sometimes when a doubter stands in the midst of all these family and friends who believe, and expresses doubt rather than faith, that can take a great deal of courage. And because of the difficulty of expressing doubt in such a context as this, it can seem a very valuable thing.

Doubt is not the opposite of faith, but the opposite of certainty, and I distinguish the doubting faithful from the certain faithful. Indeed, there are many among the certain who are less faithful than some who doubt. It is certainty that is the real destroyer of faith, mind you; for when one has a perfect knowledge, one no longer has the need for faith. But doubt enables faith, for then we may choose loyalty in spite of everything.

[Cobalt-70]

The talk was remarkable to say the least. Just wonder why he kept saying this is for the youth. Although one time he said it fits everyone. I think he was straddling the line of how everyone says I know. Therefore, he almost had to address it to the youth. It would be interesting to understand more about his choice of emphasizing the talk to the youth.

I think he was addressing the youth because it is the youth that are apparently leaving the church in droves now as a result of learning about the "other side of the story" that they don't tell you, or respond to in any credible way, in Seminary or through CES. I'm surprised that of the Twelve, only Holland seems to want to publically address this slow bleed head on. The church's "internet problem" is the ready availability of history, not porn.

[canard78]

Is the transcript up yet? Would like to reread it. Great message and appreciate it.

I also think that he is the one to deliver this message, in light of his interactions with Dehlin and older talks that are more extreme in their all or nothing 'sudden death' position.

[Calm]

Is the transcript up yet? Would like to reread it. Great message and appreciate it.

I also think that he is the one to deliver this message, in light of his interactions with Dehlin and older talks that are more extreme in their all or nothing 'sudden death' position.

http://www.lds.org/p...elieve?lang=eng

Just to be clear, only the 'highlights' are up at this point transcriptwise. My memory says the full one goes up usually by Tuesday nowadays, but I may be thinking of something else.

Here is a link to the page which will have the link to the transcripts when they are available: http://www.lds.org/general-conference/sessions/2013/04?lang=eng

Edited April 9, 2013 by calmoriah

[Okrahomer]

Yes, I disagree in part; and at the same time express admiration for the talk.

...Doubt is not the opposite of faith, but the opposite of certainty, and I distinguish the doubting faithful from the certain faithful. Indeed, there are many among the certain who are less faithful than some who doubt. It is certainty that is the real destroyer of faith, mind you; for when one has a perfect knowledge, one no longer has the need for faith. But doubt enables faith, for then we may choose loyalty in spite of everything.

I very much appreciate how you have expressed this, and I find myself agreeing with you. Thank you for that!

Edited April 9, 2013 by Okrahomer

[Okrahomer]

duplicate

Edited April 9, 2013 by Okrahomer

[PoisonWell]

I very much enjoyed Elder Holland’s talk today about faith. I felt he was spot on when he admonished us not to “lead with our doubts.”

“…when problems come and questions arise do not start your quest for faith by saying how much you do not have. That is like trying to stuff a turkey through the beak! I am not asking you to pretend to faith you do not have. I am asking you to be true to the faith you do have. Sometimes we act as if an honest declaration of doubt is a higher manifestation of moral courage than is an honest declaration of faith. It is not!”

Do any "here" disagree with Elder Holland? Why?

Is he talking about the church and it's members? If so, that's just not much of an issue, at least in my experience. The other end of the spectrum has always troubled me: when people treat doubt as a sin. That's more likely to drive people off, in my opinion. Doubt often is treated as a pox at best and has never been given more encouragement than faith, in my experience. Although die-hard skepticism as a rule isn't a good thing, people shouldn't treat doubts with anything but love and open discourse.

I also disagree if he isn't talking only about church members. In the general world, an honest declaration of doubt is a higher manifestation of moral courage, at least in most communities. Aside from more atheistic countries, you're very unlikely to get derided or punished for your faith, and you certainly won't suffer bodily harm; You'll get killed for expressing doubt in some of the Middle East. And so critical thinking (which is the father of doubt) should be celebrated, especially outside the church, as it should bring people in.

And if doubt was a bad thing,¹ we should never have converts. All people would remain atheists, catholics, etc. If God didn't intend for you to use your mind, he would've given you just a brain stem.

1. I don't think that Elder Holland is saying all doubt is bad, by the way. He seems to be looking for a middle ground, at least from what I've read here. I'd just like to make my view known as some people seem to think that doubt is a sin.

Edited April 9, 2013 by PoisonWell

[Okrahomer]

I think he was addressing the youth because it is the youth that are apparently leaving the church in droves now as a result of learning about the "other side of the story" that they don't tell you, or respond to in any credible way, in Seminary or through CES. I'm surprised that of the Twelve, only Holland seems to want to publically address this slow bleed head on. The church's "internet problem" is the ready availability of history, not porn.

I wonder about the assertion in your statement which I have underlined above. I recognize that you have qualified it with with the word "apparently”, but I wondered if you had seen any data to support it?

[PoisonWell]

I wonder about the assertion in your statement which I have underlined above. I recognize that you have qualified it with with the word "apparently”, but I wondered if you had seen any data to support it?

I was interested so I found this source at least showing that more people than usual are leaving: http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Number-of-faithful-Mormons-rapidly-declining/rvih3gOKxEm5om9IYJYnRA.cspx

I'm not sure how anyone could substantiate that mainly youth are leaving the church. I'm sure it's much harder to track youth leaving the church, seeing as their parents will often keep them officially a member and even officially active.

I'm prone to believe the youth are falling away more though, since so many seminary and youth leaders have been saying so.

[Okrahomer]

I was interested so I found this source at least showing that more people than usual are leaving: http://www.abc4.com/...om9IYJYnRA.cspx

I'm not sure how anyone could substantiate that mainly youth are leaving the church. I'm sure it's much harder to track youth leaving the church, seeing as their parents will often keep them officially a member and even officially active.

I'm prone to believe the youth are falling away more though, since so many seminary and youth leaders have been saying so.

Thank you for the reference. I have no reason to doubt what Elder Jensen is reported to have said about an “increase” in people leaving the Church; however, I am a bit skeptical of the idea that people are leaving in “droves”, as Cobalt expressed it. I don’t want to minimize the problem—I think it’s a very sad day when any one leaves the Church. But specifically where young members of the LDS Church are concerned, the NSYR study (Soul-Searching: the Religious and Spiritual Lives of American Teenagers http://www.amazon.com/Soul-Searching-Religious-Spiritual-Teenagers/dp/0195384776) seems to paint a picture quite opposite from any sort of mass exodus.

[Calm]

Thank you for the reference. I have no reason to doubt what Elder Jensen is reported to have said about an “increase” in people leaving the Church; however, I am a bit skeptical of the idea that people are leaving in “droves”, as Cobalt expressed it.

You might be interested in this blog that has a link to the actual QandA session that was used to create the story if I understand correctly, if you choose to listen to it, you can hear Elder Jensen's comment in context which is not always the way it is presented in the news or reports:

https://irresistibledisgrace.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/wherein-the-media-play-telephone-with-the-mormon-news/

[bcuzbcuz]

As the father of the a "Youth" that struggles the exact same way I think I understand. My Daughter reads her scriptures EVERY EVERY EVERY day! It is never too late for her to skip a day. She attends early morning seminary, goes to church etc.... yet she "believes", but doesn't exactly know the Church is what it claims to be. And she is struggling to lean on her parents testimony and we are both in the "Know" category. I fear she potentially thinks that she is wrong, inferior, maligned, or unloved by the Lord or by her parents because she doesn't state that she "Knows".

That isn't true and Elder Hollands talk will be part of our family discourse many many many times over the next 6 months. Mere belief is where we all start, I hope she is given her first dose of "Know" sooner rather than later. I don't want my kids to bloom later in life than I did in any respect.

I would congratulate your daughter and the wisdom she displays. The word "know" in regards to people saying they "know" the church is true is far too loosely applied. Many members have a confirmed "hope" that the church is true. They sincerely "want" the church to be true. But very few have applicable knowledge and tried and tested experiences or book learning to say they "know" the church is true. I would venture to say that "knowing" the church to be true is more bravado than reality. Can one "know" the unknowable?

Your daughter studies to "believe"? More power to her.

Edited April 9, 2013 by bcuzbcuz

[Calm]

Link to read is up:

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/2013/04/lord-i-believe?lang=eng

[wenglund]

If I qualify anything Holland said, it is downplaying doubt to a nullity. "Ignore it", was the gist of Holland's advice.

Far from it. In fact, he as much as said this is not what he is suggesting, and even went on to mention the invariability and value of doubts. Rather, all he was actually suggesting is not to lead with doubt.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Yes, I disagree in part; and at the same time express admiration for the talk.

It's a matter of context, you see. In an environment where belief and faithfulness are all around, it takes little courage to be be believing and faithful. In an environment of disbelief and self-seeking, it takes little courage to doubt God. But sometimes when a doubter stands in the midst of all these family and friends who believe, and expresses doubt rather than faith, that can take a great deal of courage. And because of the difficulty of expressing doubt in such a context as this, it can seem a very valuable thing.

Doubt is not the opposite of faith, but the opposite of certainty, and I distinguish the doubting faithful from the certain faithful. Indeed, there are many among the certain who are less faithful than some who doubt. It is certainty that is the real destroyer of faith, mind you; for when one has a perfect knowledge, one no longer has the need for faith. But doubt enables faith, for then we may choose loyalty in spite of everything.

I interpreted Hollands talk as greatly easing the stigma of doubt among believers, while also placing those doubts into useful perspective. No longer need expressions of mere belief and doubt be a function of courage, but now they ought to be embraced with apostolic gratitude, though not preferentially to all about which one may have reasonable conviction.

Metaphorically, the rose garden of spiritual growth isn't without the thorns of doubt, nor lessened thereby, though it wouldn't do the beautiful garden justice to define it by, or solely or primarily focus on, the thorns.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 10, 2013 by wenglund

[wenglund]

I think he was addressing the youth because it is the youth that are apparently leaving the church in droves now as a result of learning about the "other side of the story" that they don't tell you, or respond to in any credible way, in Seminary or through CES. I'm surprised that of the Twelve, only Holland seems to want to publically address this slow bleed head on. The church's "internet problem" is the ready availability of history, not porn.

False projection.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-