I'M Not An Atheist

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Someone accused me of being an atheist. No, I regret to inform you that prophecy in LDS public is as lousy as in history and scripture. What I am is skeptical. Now that I am checking on my own assumptions, which is pretty much all the assumptions the rest of we Mormons hold also, I am asking far tougher questions of my own beliefs, as well as others, and I am finding it interesting that all the sudden the only response that is comforting, because, many questions being asked are not answerable without serious cognitive dissonance on all our parts, is to falsely accuse me of atheism. Let me clarify, I am a skeptic of many things I have been taught to believe simply on faith and that just because an authority proclaims a doctrine I was to believe it. I have been told, as we all have, what to think all my life. Now that I am learning HOW to think THROUGH my assumptions and take them ALL THE WAY TO THEIR HONEST CONCLUSION, I admit, I have become quite skeptical of a lot. If it really does bother many of you, we can carry on conversations email, and I will stop posting here so as to quit disturbing the comfortable cushion of equilibrium of faith you all live in.

I am sincerely sorry for interrupting several threads with my own personal problem of doubts. If I feel the need to actually air them, I shall start new threads and quit worrying about showing the illogical stance so many continue to believe is the truth. That way nuthin gets derailed.

Thanks,

Kerry

Edited August 4, 2012 by Kerry A. Shirts

[volgadon]

Someone accused me of being an atheist. No, I regret to inform you that prophecy in LDS public is as lousy as in history and scripture. What I am is skeptical.

You probably don't mean it this way, but it comes across as angry, bitter and rancorous. Ridiculous cheap shots like the bolded portion don't help.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

You probably don't mean it this way, but it comes across as angry, bitter and rancorous. Ridiculous cheap shots like the bolded portion don't help.

I'm just statin the facts now is all......I actually now can see how that would be taken that way.....ah well....... I can live with it. I ain't exactly happy as a lark about being so naive as to actually think the church really DID know whereof it spoke, and I simply accepted without critically asking things myself. But then, they don't exactly build a friendly atmosphere of asking real questions as opposed to controlled questions like "Who is God?" The only answer in the multiple choice being given as A - Our Heavenly Father. Any other answer or questions are simply not encouraged. (And yes, this is a sample, I realize there might be some chance that someone is gonna say "SEE! He is TOO atheist!" )

[mfbukowski]

Someone accused me of being an atheist. No, I regret to inform you that prophecy in LDS public is as lousy as in history and scripture. What I am is skeptical. Now that I am checking on my own assumptions, which is pretty much all the assumptions the rest of we Mormons hold also, I am asking far tougher questions of my own beliefs, as well as others, and I am finding it interesting that all the sudden the only response that is comforting, because, many questions being asked are not answerable without serious cognitive dissonance on all our parts, is to falsely accuse me of atheism. Let me clarify, I am a skeptic of many things I have been taught to believe simply on faith and that just because an authority proclaims a doctrine I was to believe it. I have been told, as we all have, what to think all my life. Now that I am learning HOW to think THROUGH my assumptions and take them ALL THE WAY TO THEIR HONEST CONCLUSION, I admit, I have become quite skeptical of a lot. If it really does bother many of you, we can carry on conversations email, and I will stop posting here so as to quit disturbing the comfortable cushion of equilibrium of faith you all live in.

I am sincerely sorry for interrupting several threads with my own personal problem of doubts. If I feel the need to actually air them, I shall start new threads and quit worrying about showing the illogical stance so many continue to believe is the truth. That way nuthin gets derailed.

Thanks,

Kerry

No problem. I used to be an atheistic communist radical hippie yippie - burn it all down and start over again- guy.

I got better.

[CASteinman]

I am learning HOW to think THROUGH my assumptions and take them ALL THE WAY TO THEIR HONEST CONCLUSION

This looks like an assumption to me.

[ERayR]

I'm just statin the facts now is all......I actually now can see how that would be taken that way.....ah well....... I can live with it. I ain't exactly happy as a lark about being so naive as to actually think the church really DID know whereof it spoke, and I simply accepted without critically asking things myself. But then, they don't exactly build a friendly atmosphere of asking real questions as opposed to controlled questions like "Who is God?" The only answer in the multiple choice being given as A - Our Heavenly Father. Any other answer or questions are simply not encouraged. (And yes, this is a sample, I realize there might be some chance that someone is gonna say "SEE! He is TOO atheist!" )

No Kerry thems not all facts. Some may be but from where i'm standin I see a lot of what looks like your suppositions. That's alright too just don't try to snow us by claiming their all facts.

Edited August 4, 2012 by ERayR

[supersnail]

Sir, I was not sure how else to interpet your sentence, "Good grief, there is no God already." Admittedly, I am not familiar with your posts outside a couple of recent threads, but if you expect me to discern such subtlety in your writing that I should know when you mean something other than what your various sentences clearly convey, you expect too much.

To clarify, I only said that after you asked me to clarify what I was talking about when I said atheists were making claims about certain scientific theories that are unwarranted by the theories themselves. You CFRed even though Einstein and Hawking and their ideas had already been mentioned. In several posts I have explained extensively why Mormonism is compatible with science. Clearly, you disagree, and you have your reasons, which no doubt are persuasive.

If you don't know that the statement you made would normally be understood as a statement of atheism, rather than agnosticism, then you don't know. I don't claim to know that you intended to represent yourself as an "atheist" and will give you the benefit of the doubt. I apologize for not allowing you to categorize your own beliefs, as what I said was arguably unnecessary (in more than one way).

I am not LDS. I have made that clear several times on this forum. I am coming from a strong atheist background with many more reasons for disbelieving that even you have put forward. I feel it is important for me to work out intellectually why my former positions are wrong at this time, rather than later. My reasoning may thus appear more forceful than some others'. I am baffled by your suggestion that I represent LDS after I clarified hours before your post here that I was not. I find this whole situation of me, a non-LDS ex-atheist, appearing to prop up the belief (or harden the disbelief) of someone such as yourself to be odd. The topic you started was interesting, and I wrote on it enthusiastically, and had participated in many other threads without issue. I'm sorry that this was the result. Now I just feel bad. I meant to resolve this somehow privately and with my retraction in the thread, but I guess there's not much point now.

Edited August 4, 2012 by supersnail

[Mudcat]

Someone accused me of being an atheist. No, I regret to inform you that prophecy in LDS public is as lousy as in history and scripture. What I am is skeptical. Now that I am checking on my own assumptions, which is pretty much all the assumptions the rest of we Mormons hold also, I am asking far tougher questions of my own beliefs, as well as others, and I am finding it interesting that all the sudden the only response that is comforting, because, many questions being asked are not answerable without serious cognitive dissonance on all our parts, is to falsely accuse me of atheism. Let me clarify, I am a skeptic of many things I have been taught to believe simply on faith and that just because an authority proclaims a doctrine I was to believe it. I have been told, as we all have, what to think all my life. Now that I am learning HOW to think THROUGH my assumptions and take them ALL THE WAY TO THEIR HONEST CONCLUSION, I admit, I have become quite skeptical of a lot. If it really does bother many of you, we can carry on conversations email, and I will stop posting here so as to quit disturbing the comfortable cushion of equilibrium of faith you all live in.

I am sincerely sorry for interrupting several threads with my own personal problem of doubts. If I feel the need to actually air them, I shall start new threads and quit worrying about showing the illogical stance so many continue to believe is the truth. That way nuthin gets derailed.

Thanks,

Kerry

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Kerry. Sounds like your having a rough go with faith.

As you know, I am not LDS, but I can identify to some extent. IMO, LDS have the worse of it when it comes to such.. more difficult information and statements to try and harmonize with belief and so on.

There have been moments that I have wondered to myself, "What if it's all bunk?"

I'll paraphrase on my favorite EV apologists, Bill Craig. He said something like, "That focusing simply on the arguments for belief can prove to be a distraction from belief."

I think for those that dig into their beliefs they dig up a lot, no matter what the faith. Lot's of challenges, I suppose.

Dunno if it's of comfort, but I would offer the following verse. It helps me.

2 Timothy 1:12

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Doubt what you doubt, question what you question, hopefully in the process you will keep faith in the Christ.

That is my hope for you.

Regards,

Mudcat

[Kerry A. Shirts]

This looks like an assumption to me.

Good one!

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Sir, I was not sure how else to interpet your sentence, "Good grief, there is no God already." Admittedly, I am not familiar with your posts outside a couple of recent threads, but if you expect me to discern such subtlety in your writing that I should know when you mean something other than what your various sentences clearly convey, you expect too much.

To clarify, I only said that after you asked me to clarify what I was talking about when I said atheists were making claims about certain scientific theories that are unwarranted by the theories themselves. You CFRed even though Einstein and Hawking and their ideas had already been mentioned. In several posts I have explained extensively why Mormonism is compatible with science. Clearly, you disagree, and you have your reasons, which no doubt are persuasive.

If you don't know that the statement you made would normally be understood as a statement of atheism, rather than agnosticism, then you don't know. I don't claim to know that you intended to represent yourself as an "atheist" and will give you the benefit of the doubt. I apologize for not allowing you to categorize your own beliefs, as what I said was arguably unnecessary (in more than one way).

I am not LDS. I have made that clear several times on this forum. I am coming from a strong atheist background with many more reasons for disbelieving that even you have put forward. I feel it is important for me to work out intellectually why my former positions are wrong at this time, rather than later. My reasoning may thus appear more forceful than some others'. I am baffled by your suggestion that I represent LDS after I clarified hours before your post here that I was not. I find this whole situation of me, a non-LDS ex-atheist, appearing to prop up the belief (or harden the disbelief) of someone such as yourself to be odd. The topic you started was interesting, and I wrote on it enthusiastically, and had participated in many other threads without issue. I'm sorry that this was the result. Now I just feel bad. I meant to resolve this somehow privately and with my retraction in the thread, but I guess there's not much point now.

No worries, I didn't communicate clearly, and it is my fault. Hey ya gotta admit, its far from boring trying to sift through all this stuff eh?

[USU78]

Kerry, ol' Hoss, I prescribe fer thee a nightly infusion of 2.5 mg of Martin Buber:

http://www.amazon.com/I-And-Thou-Martin-Buber/dp/0684717255

[volgadon]

Kerry, ol' Hoss, I prescribe fer thee a nightly infusion of 2.5 mg of Martin Buber:

http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/0684717255

Also, his essay on Abraham the Seer. I've been reading a lot of Buber recently.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Kerry, ol' Hoss, I prescribe fer thee a nightly infusion of 2.5 mg of Martin Buber:

http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/0684717255

Ah good ole Buber eh? O.K., I'll get it.....see if I can get it on my Kindle, its way cheaper that way!

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Also, his essay on Abraham the Seer. I've been reading a lot of Buber recently.

Abraham? What that old myth? (COME ON! You just HAD to see that one coming didnja?! )

[volgadon]

Abraham? What that old myth? (COME ON! You just HAD to see that one coming didnja?! )

Seriously, though, it is a powerful essay on knowing, an essay drawing deeply from traditional Jewish concepts.

[volgadon]

Ah good ole Buber eh? O.K., I'll get it.....see if I can get it on my Kindle, its way cheaper that way!

It takes some getting into, but the philosophy of dialogue is worth understanding. Martin Buber would have made for an interesting home teacher.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Seriously, though, it is a powerful essay on knowing, an essay drawing deeply from traditional Jewish concepts.

I will happily look this up, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

It takes some getting into, but the philosophy of dialogue is worth understanding. Martin Buber would have made for an interesting home teacher.

Oh would that have simply ROCKED or what?! Course, Hugh Nibley woulda made one heckuva home teacher also! I would have loved to have been his partner! Talk him into making a mere 3 minute visit, then go out for ice cream the rest of the night and talk things out. Oh what a fantasy that IS!

[Ares]

A change in personal beliefs is not an excuse for ignoring board rules.

No personal threads.