Different Types Of Facts And Packer'S Parable

[Stone holm]

I have been reading a bit of Hannah Arendt lately and have been struck by her arguments about the difference in certain types of facts, and that what she calls axiomatic facts are less likely to be lost than certain other types of facts like historical facts. The latter can be destroyed by book burning, lying, etc. while the former like 2 plus 2 equals 4 will eventually resurface. It caused me to muse upon Boyd K. Packer's parable about the elementary kids voting on the gender of a kitty, and wonder first what kind of facts we were dealing with and the ramifications of the argument. I am attaching a link to where I went with those musings, and have wondered what others felt about the parable.

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981864774

[Stargazer]

I don't remember the parable, actually.

You wrote:

Assuming of course that the consensus is that marriage is actually about procreation.

To which I respond: Duh!

If it weren't about procreation, then women looking for a good genetic father for their young would seek out a likely male, get impregnated, and then would, like any good bear sow, go off to raise the child all by herself. And if this had been the intent of the Creator, then women would have times when they were "in heat", and then and only then would they be attractive to males.

Unfortunately, successfully raising human children to adulthood requires a nurturing parent and a protecting and providing parent. A single woman or a single man, can, in a pinch, pull it off, too. Although generally not without help from a supportive community. And you might say that two same-sex parents might be able to pull it off, too, but given the differences and differing emotional needs of girl vs boy children, and the necessity of providing some kind of gender-specific role-modeling, I would postulate that a same-sex household, all other things being equal, is NOT going to be the equal of a different-sex household.

And voting to say that there's no difference has the same kind of quality as the Catholic Church's decision that the geocentric astronomical model was in accordance with God's will.

The LGBT community can complain all it likes, but interestingly enough, virtually all of them were themselves raised in heterosexual families. Just because they are outliers does not make the mainstream need to conform to their model.

[Bikeemikey]

I have been reading a bit of Hannah Arendt lately and have been struck by her arguments about the difference in certain types of facts, and that what she calls axiomatic facts are less likely to be lost than certain other types of facts like historical facts. The latter can be destroyed by book burning, lying, etc. while the former like 2 plus 2 equals 4 will eventually resurface. It caused me to muse upon Boyd K. Packer's parable about the elementary kids voting on the gender of a kitty, and wonder first what kind of facts we were dealing with and the ramifications of the argument. I am attaching a link to where I went with those musings, and have wondered what others felt about the parable.

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981864774

With a dual nature of body spirit we are open to ideas of spiritual mis-identification if you will. In virtue of the proclamation of the family we believe that gender is both a physical and spiritual reality.

The Biological existence of Hemaphrodites certainly adds credibility to this case. Are people born blind blind spirits? Are people born disabled (physically, mentally or emotionally) that way spiritually?

We seem to believe that there can be a variance between the condition the spirit is likely to possess and the physical body it actually possesses (leaving to the side the possibility that actually there may be disabled spirits and bodies we receive mirror the spirit directly - I think most LDS would not support this notion).

It is not a substantial jump to the postulate that one of the potential spirit-body variances that may occur is some sort of gender misappropriation. It seems in the real context of Hemaphrodites there is a 50/50 chance of mis-selection as the choice is made by doctors and parents. However, this may not be the limit of the mis-alignment issues between spirits and physical bodies.

As for procreation. Scientist can already pull skin cells from mice (males) and produce both egg and sperm and then fertilize the egg and grow a new mouse.

We soon won't need to worry about the procreation argument as we will be able to do it in the lab. Men will be able to produce both males and females... Women only females.

[Stone holm]

With a dual nature of body spirit we are open to ideas of spiritual mis-identification if you will. In virtue of the proclamation of the family we believe that gender is both a physical and spiritual reality.

The Biological existence of Hemaphrodites certainly adds credibility to this case. Are people born blind blind spirits? Are people born disabled (physically, mentally or emotionally) that way spiritually?

We seem to believe that there can be a variance between the condition the spirit is likely to possess and the physical body it actually possesses (leaving to the side the possibility that actually there may be disabled spirits and bodies we receive mirror the spirit directly - I think most LDS would not support this notion).

It is not a substantial jump to the postulate that one of the potential spirit-body variances that may occur is some sort of gender misappropriation. It seems in the real context of Hemaphrodites there is a 50/50 chance of mis-selection as the choice is made by doctors and parents. However, this may not be the limit of the mis-alignment issues between spirits and physical bodies.

As for procreation. Scientist can already pull skin cells from mice (males) and produce both egg and sperm and then fertilize the egg and grow a new mouse.

We soon won't need to worry about the procreation argument as we will be able to do it in the lab. Men will be able to produce both males and females... Women only females.

Yeah the genetic argument has some issues as well, although I suppose a person could always be classified as male if a Y chromosome is present regardless of the number of X chromosomes. I think there is always some danger in jumping from verifiable facts to religious conclusions. However, except in possibly the hermaphrodites case, or possibly where some other physical deformity has obscured the true genetic gender, I still think the transgender are people trying to conform their desires to gender stereotypes in the culture rather than spirits attaching themselves to the wrong bodies. But you are right to question why do we have the doctrine of imperfect bodies and perfect spirits when we know so little about spiritual reproduction.

[CASteinman]

http://www.gather.co...281474981864774

The weird thing is that you say "So it turns out, that Packer’s Parable although very interesting, tends not to be very persuasive."

And yet, some of what you say is actually arguing the exact same point. You just don't agree on where the line is drawn.

So you aren't being consistent, really.

[CASteinman]

Marriage is about procreation according to the Scriptures.

[Stone holm]

Marriage is about procreation according to the Scriptures.

Yes and no. It is certainly about sanctification of sex. And thus, indirectly about procreation. But, we, at least not me , are not talking about whether Elder Packer is right scripturally because in the parable he is not making an argument based on Scriptures.q

[CASteinman]

Yes and no.

Pretty much yes.

[Stone holm]

With a dual nature of body spirit we are open to ideas of spiritual mis-identification if you will. In virtue of the proclamation of the family we believe that gender is both a physical and spiritual reality.

The Biological existence of Hemaphrodites certainly adds credibility to this case. Are people born blind blind spirits? Are people born disabled (physically, mentally or emotionally) that way spiritually?

We seem to believe that there can be a variance between the condition the spirit is likely to possess and the physical body it actually possesses (leaving to the side the possibility that actually there may be disabled spirits and bodies we receive mirror the spirit directly - I think most LDS would not support this notion).

It is not a substantial jump to the postulate that one of the potential spirit-body variances that may occur is some sort of gender misappropriation. It seems in the real context of Hemaphrodites there is a 50/50 chance of mis-selection as the choice is made by doctors and parents. However, this may not be the limit of the mis-alignment issues between spirits and physical bodies.

As for procreation. Scientist can already pull skin cells from mice (males) and produce both egg and sperm and then fertilize the egg and grow a new mouse.

We soon won't need to worry about the procreation argument as we will be able to do it in the lab. Men will be able to produce both males and females... Women only females.

Yes, I agree that the Mormon dualist position opens up the speculative possiblity for mis-matching of Spirits and Physical Bodies. I think this gets into a theological issue, however, as to the extent that God is involved in the matching of Spirits and bodies which also raises questions about some Mormon folklore. There is, I believe, a tendency amongst Mormons to believe that while because of the doctrine of the fall, we have all kinds of abnormalities and deformities associated with our physical bodies, which we believe if the defect is so severe that it eliminates the capacity to sin -- it gives the individual a straight ticket to the Celestial Kingdom, and if it results in another type of physical defect that God will "fix" it in the resurrection if the person lives a worthy life. There is also quite a bit of folklore that specific spirits are put into specific bodies because they either do not need to be tested further (think severely mentally handicapped to the point of lacking capacity), or because they have overcome certain issues but need to finely hone other issues (physical handicaps), etc. However, when it comes to spirits we tend to think of them strictly as being perfect insofar as a spirit can be perfect without connection to a physical body. Further, because of the folklore mentioned above, we think that God is very much in charge of matching spirits with physical bodies. This then presents an issue -- one if the transgenders are correct (a contention that I sincerely doubt) then God has less control over the matching of spirits and bodies than we have imagined, or there is something else in play that we do not understand as yet. While I staunchly believe in the cake baking analogy with respect to the creation of worlds, namely that once the process is started that God can only tamper so much with what happens without risking having the whole cake fall flat, I tend to draw the line when it comes to the Spiritual realm and things like the assignment of Spirits -- and I certainly have some qualms about any notion of defective spirits (as to their form and bodily functions -- although I concede that we have doctrinal support for the idea that some spirits are born deficient in their attitudes, hence Satan and his minions). So I would tend, with the possible exception of hermaphrodites and certain genetic anomalies, to believe that transgenders are simply trying to conform their desires to the gender stereotypes of the culture, rather than the notion that they have mismatched spirits and physical bodies. All of this, of course, is up for grabs philosophically -- and I am not exactly sure the "guidance" of the Proclamation on Families actually settles much of anything other than staking out a legal defence in anticipation that gay marriage becomes the legal norm -- hence, I am tending to agree with the commentator who suggested it was written by the Church's legal department.

[Stone holm]

Pretty much yes.

Pretty much true, with a pinch of doubt.

[CASteinman]

Pretty much true, with a pinch of doubt.

Yes, there are always some doubters. As one man said to Jesus -- Help thou my unbelief. Not sure that all doubters want to be helped though.

Edited April 1, 2013 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

Yes, I agree that the Mormon dualist position opens up the speculative possiblity for mis-matching of Spirits and Physical Bodies. I think this gets into a theological issue, however, as to the extent that God is involved in the matching of Spirits and bodies

I don't think you can support that there is any "matching" of bodies to spirits. Rather -- there is a spiritual "creation" followed by physical -- but the same things are "created" both times. That is-- the physical follows the spiritual.

At best, you could say that the physical is imperfect by nature. But the idea of matching bodies to spirits like some sort of factory assembly is entirely from imagination -- not from any scripture or official Church Doctrine.

[Stone holm]

I don't think you can support that there is any "matching" of bodies to spirits. Rather -- there is a spiritual "creation" followed by physical -- but the same things are "created" both times. That is-- the physical follows the spiritual.

At best, you could say that the physical is imperfect by nature. But the idea of matching bodies to spirits like some sort of factory assembly is entirely from imagination -- not from any scripture or official Church Doctrine.

Not sure I completely follow you on this CA. We don't know much about how spirits become housed in bodies. The readings that I have done suggest that there is a period during gestation when there is no spirit associated with the fetus, and also that there may be a period where the spirit is only tenuously associated with the body and can still basically pull out if for some reason the fetus aborts either by miscarriage or by human intervention. That is why the Church has been reluctant to authorize Temple work for stillborns. Spirits apparently pre-existed the Earth as all associated with this creation, approved the plan or rejected the plan before any were sent to this Earth. So the question then is how does the Spirit become associated with a specific body. My totally undocumented opinion is that it probably involves some kind of Patriarchal Priesthood ordinance, but that is sheer speculation...I would love to read some clear doctrinal statement as to how a Spirit becomes associated with a body. As for creation of both, yeah I agree and I tend to think that the creative process is basically the same for spirits as it is for physical tabernacles...I tend to go with Brigham Young on that since he called the idea of Adam being made out of clay was just fable.

[CASteinman]

Not sure I completely follow you on this CA.

I tried to be pretty plain but let me see if I can get even plainer.

Spiritual Creation comes before Physical Creation and gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. Female Spirit Bodies are not accidentally put into Male Physical bodies or vice versa -- and that's even considering problems with hermaphroditism.

[Questing Beast]

The spirit of John the Baptist in his second trimester or beginning of his third trimester "leaped" in Elizabeth's womb at the sound of Mary's voice and she prophesied. The spirit of Jesus Christ on the night before he was born spoke to Nephi in the Americas. So apparently, based solely on scriptural anecdotal evidence, the spirit of the unborn can come and go at will....

Edited April 1, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Stone holm]

I tried to be pretty plain but let me see if I can get even plainer.

Spiritual Creation comes before Physical Creation and gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. Female Spirit Bodies are not accidentally put into Male Physical bodies or vice versa -- and that's even considering problems with hermaphroditism.

Well okay, I definitely agree about spirits being born a certain gender. I think we are also in agreement about how spirits come to be. And the whole world now pretty much understands the whole birds and bees thing so we know how physical bodies come to be. But this does not explain how a specific pre-existing spirit comes to be associated with a newly created physical body. I tend to agree with you that God does not allow mistakes to happen in the process, but I can see where our theology leaves the door open for that argument, perhaps even more so than in most Christian denominations which don't believe in the pre-existence.

[CASteinman]

but I can see where our theology leaves the door open for that argument, perhaps even more so than in most Christian denominations which don't believe in the pre-existence.

Oh, that's interesting. I would think that they would have more room for maneuvering than we would.

[Stone holm]

Oh, that's interesting. I would think that they would have more room for maneuvering than we would.

Well I do think they have more room to manuever than we do with regards to gay marriage, but they appear to believe tha spirits are created at the same time and as part of the same process that physical bodies are created, while we,however, believe that spirits are fully grown when they become associated with the body and are created by a prior process between two celestial partners who are not the parties involved in the creation of the physical body. So we really don't know how the spirit comes into the temple and claims it as its own -- although our doctrine appears to allow for there to be temporary visitors to that Temple (bad visitors in the case of invited demons or evil spirits and good visitors in the case of the Holy Ghost).

[Stone holm]

The spirit of John the Baptist in his second trimester or beginning of his third trimester "leaped" in Elizabeth's womb at the sound of Mary's voice and she prophesied. The spirit of Jesus Christ on the night before he was born spoke to Nephi in the Americas. So apparently, based solely on scriptural anecdotal evidence, the spirit of the unborn can come and go at will....

Ah don't see how either demonstrates that, although the case of Elizabeth has caused some to mark that as the point where life actually begins. The second just demonstrates a power that Christ had while He was still in spirit form and He obviously was a very, very powerful spirit.

[Ahab]

Well okay, I definitely agree about spirits being born a certain gender. I think we are also in agreement about how spirits come to be. And the whole world now pretty much understands the whole birds and bees thing so we know how physical bodies come to be. But this does not explain how a specific pre-existing spirit comes to be associated with a newly created physical body. I tend to agree with you that God does not allow mistakes to happen in the process, but I can see where our theology leaves the door open for that argument, perhaps even more so than in most Christian denominations which don't believe in the pre-existence.

The spirit is the life within the body which is created by parts of a male coming together with parts of a female. Or at least that's how it works for our species which requires 2 of the opposite sex.

The challenge for us, at this point, is in determining exactly when the life comes into the body within the mortal mother's womb. We know that mortal parents don't create the life/spirit, themselves, which instead comes from our spiritual parents in heaven, but we don't know exactly when the spirit is sent into the fetus/baby before it is born. All we know is that the spirit needs to be in the body before the cord is cut, otherwise there would be no way for the fetus/baby to live independently from the Mother. Until then, though, the life of the fetus/baby could be part of the Mother, with the life/spirit of the baby not having come to the body, yet.

[CASteinman]

Well I do think they have more room to manuever than we do with regards to gay marriage, but they appear to believe tha spirits are created at the same time and as part of the same process that physical bodies are created, while we,however, believe that spirits are fully grown when they become associated with the body and are created by a prior process between two celestial partners who are not the parties involved in the creation of the physical body. So we really don't know how the spirit comes into the temple and claims it as its own -- although our doctrine appears to allow for there to be temporary visitors to that Temple (bad visitors in the case of invited demons or evil spirits and good visitors in the case of the Holy Ghost).

Well, I guess that's my point. There is evidence that BIID problems are associated with what I will call "wiring" problems in the brain. Those people who feel the spirit and body are created at the same time would say "well that wiring disorder is part of what defines you". We would say "No, your Gender is eternal and your body suffers from things related to mortality".

[CASteinman]

Ah don't see how either demonstrates that, although the case of Elizabeth has caused some to mark that as the point where life actually begins. The second just demonstrates a power that Christ had while He was still in spirit form and He obviously was a very, very powerful spirit.

Or even had ministering angels able to speak for Him.

[Ahab]

Well I do think they have more room to manuever than we do with regards to gay marriage, but they appear to believe tha spirits are created at the same time and as part of the same process that physical bodies are created, while we,however, believe that spirits are fully grown when they become associated with the body and are created by a prior process between two celestial partners who are not the parties involved in the creation of the physical body. So we really don't know how the spirit comes into the temple and claims it as its own -- although our doctrine appears to allow for there to be temporary visitors to that Temple (bad visitors in the case of invited demons or evil spirits and good visitors in the case of the Holy Ghost).

I'd say we know how, but we don't know when. The "how" is simply a matter of the spirit entering into the mortal body, which is what makes the body alive. Otherwise the baby is born still born without any life of it's own.

[Ahab]

Well, I guess that's my point. There is evidence that BIID problems are associated with what I will call "wiring" problems in the brain. Those people who feel the spirit and body are created at the same time would say "well that wiring disorder is part of what defines you". We would say "No, your Gender is eternal and your body suffers from things related to mortality".

I think what you are calling a "wiring disorder" needs to be more fully understood, though. It's not a bad thing, as some people imagine, because there is nothing wrong with someone being sexually attracted to someone of the same sex. Each sex is sexually attractive, and simply noticing that is not a problem, or a bad thing. Everyone should realize that each sex is sexually attractive. The problem is that people of the same sex should not have sexual relations with each other, regardless of how sexually attractive someone of the same sex is seen to be. A man is for a woman, and a woman is for a man. That's all there is to it.

[CASteinman]

I think what you are calling a "wiring disorder" needs to be more fully understood, though.

Yes. It needs to be better understood -- in this exact conversation. I am talking about things like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder