Different Types Of Facts And Packer'S Parable

[Stone holm]

Yes. It can be easy for a few reasons, not the least of which is that the scriptures either actually do or at least seem to contradict one another from 'time to time'.

Lol...I love this board...

[Ahab]

No, this is not "The truth". This is your preachment.

You do not seem to accept some of the things that the Scriptures say.

It only seems that way to you and other people who think like you do, but you can change the way you think.

Miracles are possible.

[Ahab]

You may be correct, but that is not the complete story as I understand it.

Maybe I can help to clear this up for you by sharing what I understand about what we've been told by those with the keys.

Before we were spirits born of our Heavenly Father and Mother we were intelligences (or perhaps many intelligences), the intelligences were not created, they are co-eternal with God.

So far so good, but think some more about it. What kind of intelligences were we? Where did we come from? What were we?

What I've told you is that we were already a part of our Father and Mother, even before we were born. That is the kind of intelligence we were. We weren't just some random type of intelligence floating around independently in space. We were within our parents, even before they gave birth to us. And back further, we were a part of them even before they got married, or before they became adults, or back when they were children of their parents. And we were part of their parents too, who we might refer to as their grandparents. And back further, we were part of everyone in our family tree, back and back and back and back with no beginning, generally, since our kind of being, our intelligence, has always existed. Surely some of this sounds familiar to you, even though maybe not exactly in the words I'm using. If not, keep studying and researching and you'll find that these ideas have already been shared by people with the keys of the kingdom, many times.

The intelligences grew and were organized into Spirits -- you say that the intelligences that were organized into Spirits were predestined to be so or that they were of a special quality that made them only capable of being developed into the spirits of humans.

Yes, because our intelligence is tied directliy to the type of intelligence we are, and our kind is the kind referred to as God. Being human is just a phase we go through if we have kept our first estate, and even Satan is the same kind of being/intellience we are. Some of us are just more developed than others, and more good/evil than others, but our kind is the same kind as that of our Father(s) in heaven.

Possibly so -- so far I have found no authority for that proposition, so I am asking whether you have authority for that proposition. I too remember reading something to the effect of what I am saying, and I have no witness that what you have said is correct.

Keep reading as much as you want, but if you want to know this is true I recommend that you ask our Father in heaven.

[Stone holm]

Maybe I can help to clear this up for you by sharing what I understand about what we've been told by those with the keys.

So far so good, but think some more about it. What kind of intelligences were we? Where did we come from? What were we?

What I've told you is that we were already a part of our Father and Mother, even before we were born. That is the kind of intelligence we were. We weren't just some random type of intelligence floating around independently in space. We were within our parents, even before they gave birth to us. And back further, we were a part of them even before they got married, or before they became adults, or back when they were children of their parents. And we were part of their parents too, who we might refer to as their grandparents. And back further, we were part of everyone in our family tree, back and back and back and back with no beginning, generally, since our kind of being, our intelligence, has always existed. Surely some of this sounds familiar to you, even though maybe not exactly in the words I'm using. If not, keep studying and researching and you'll find that these ideas have already been shared by people with the keys of the kingdom, many times.

Yes, because our intelligence is tied directliy to the type of intelligence we are, and our kind is the kind referred to as God. Being human is just a phase we go through if we have kept our first estate, and even Satan is the same kind of being/intellience we are. Some of us are just more developed than others, and more good/evil than others, but our kind is the same kind as that of our Father(s) in heaven.

Keep reading as much as you want, but if you want to know this is true I recommend that you ask our Father in heaven.

Interesting suggestion. Have read absolutely nothing that supports it, but it is interesting I will give you that. What is clear is that the intelligences were in fact separate from Heavenly Father, what is not clear is how the intelligences wind up composing a Spirit. An interesting, but not terribly important issue at least at this stage of the game. What is interesting, however, is how Spirits get associated with specific physical bodies and that might in fact have relevance to the present world.

[Ahab]

What is clear is that the intelligences were in fact separate from Heavenly Father, what is not clear is how the intelligences wind up composing a Spirit.

Distinct persons, I think you mean, but we're all connected as we all have the same family connection to one who is our Father in heaven. And the kind of spirit we have is the spirit of God because that's the kind of being we are.

What is interesting, however, is how Spirits get associated with specific physical bodies and that might in fact have relevance to the present world.

It's just like the story of the birds and the bees. We get our spirit/life/intelligence from our parents, who are the same kind of being we are. Not that our mortal parents do it all by themselves, but they do a part of it just as our Father in heaven also gives us a part of himself.... and there's no need to worry about him ever running out of parts of him to share.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Ahab

[Stone holm]

Distinct persons, I think you mean, but we're all connected as we all have the same family connection to one who is our Father in heaven. And the kind of spirit we have is the spirit of God because that's the kind of being we are.

It's just like the story of the birds and the bees. We get our spirit/life/intelligence from our parents, who are the same kind of being we are. Not that our mortal parents do it all by themselves, but they do a part of it just as our Father in heaven also gives us a part of himself.... and there's no need to worry about him ever running out of parts of him to share.

Yes spirits are created in the birds and bees fashion. But there are different birds and bees creating the physical tabernacles, well except for Christ, so there is the question of how the spirit body comes to be associated with the physical body since they pre-exist it. The same issue is there with regards to the intelligence(s) and the spirit body -- the spirit bodies are created in the same birds and bees fashion -- exactly what determines what intelligences are associated with spiritual non-human items and which are associated with human spirits, has not, that I can find, ever been spelled out. And I don't buy that its Heavenly Father taking bits of Himself in the manner you suggest. But I have no more authority for my position, than you do for yours.

[Ahab]

Yes spirits are created in the birds and bees fashion. But there are different birds and bees creating the physical tabernacles, well except for Christ, so there is the question of how the spirit body comes to be associated with the physical body since they pre-exist it.

Each kind reproduces its own kind, in "the birds and bees fashion." Beyond that, well, what else is there to know? If you know enough about the birds and the bees then you know how everything works. Similar to what is taught in biology, except that most people don't know the spiritual part about the birds and the bees.

The same issue is there with regards to the intelligence(s) and the spirit body -- the spirit bodies are created in the same birds and bees fashion -- exactly what determines what intelligences are associated with spiritual non-human items and which are associated with human spirits, has not, that I can find, ever been spelled out.

Each kind reproduces its own kind. What part of that do you not understand?

And I don't buy that its Heavenly Father taking bits of Himself in the manner you suggest. But I have no more authority for my position, than you do for yours.

Maybe what you need to hear is some more about the birds and the bees. Let's see if I can make it more clear to you now:

Each kind of being has always existed, with there never being a time when there was the very first of a particular kind of being, generally speaking. Thus, a bird comes from other birds who are parents of the latter bird, but the latter bird doesn't come from nothing or out of nowhere. Instead of that false idea, the bird came from parts of that bird's parents, with some parts from the male parent and some other parts from the female parent. Together, they reproduce and viola!!!... there is another bird!!!

Oh, but wait, you may say, that's just the mortal body of that bird. What about the spirit of that bird? Where did that come from? The answer is from that bird's parents, which may or may not be the same parents that created the bird's mortal body, as well. But how? The answer is in a similar way to how the mortal body is created, only it's the spiritual body that is being created when creating the spirit. The spirit comes first, and then the mortal body, if the bird is being born into a mortal environment. Otherwise there is no mortal body for the bird, or at least not yet, because the bird hasn't "fallen" to become mortal and instead will have only a spirit body in which to live forever.

I don't know all the nitty gritty details but that is the general idea of how it all works. We come from our parents, and that has been the way it has been forever.

[Stone holm]

Each kind reproduces its own kind, in "the birds and bees fashion." Beyond that, well, what else is there to know? If you know enough about the birds and the bees then you know how everything works. Similar to what is taught in biology, except that most people don't know the spiritual part about the birds and the bees.

Each kind reproduces its own kind. What part of that do you not understand?

Maybe what you need to hear is some more about the birds and the bees. Let's see if I can make it more clear to you now:

Each kind of being has always existed, with there never being a time when there was the very first of a particular kind of being, generally speaking. Thus, a bird comes from other birds who are parents of the latter bird, but the latter bird doesn't come from nothing or out of nowhere. Instead of that false idea, the bird came from parts of that bird's parents, with some parts from the male parent and some other parts from the female parent. Together, they reproduce and viola!!!... there is another bird!!!

Oh, but wait, you may say, that's just the mortal body of that bird. What about the spirit of that bird? Where did that come from? The answer is from that bird's parents, which may or may not be the same parents that created the bird's mortal body, as well. But how? The answer is in a similar way to how the mortal body is created, only it's the spiritual body that is being created when creating the spirit. The spirit comes first, and then the mortal body, if the bird is being born into a mortal environment. Otherwise there is no mortal body for the bird, or at least not yet, because the bird hasn't "fallen" to become mortal and instead will have only a spirit body in which to live forever.

I don't know all the nitty gritty details but that is the general idea of how it all works. We come from our parents, and that has been the way it has been forever.

Yeah I got the general idea how physical tabernacles are created, and the general idea of how spiritis are created. Which bypasses how spirits get associated with a specific physical body. Here let me spell it out for you: Heavenly Father plus Heavenly Mother create Spirit Child Earthly father plus earthly mother create earthly tabernacle. Heavenly Father ships Spirit child to earthly sphere and somehow it winds up in a specific earthly tabernacle -- but Heavenly Father didnt well you know with either parent so, hm. that leaves: association is random, earthly tabernacle uses some form of magnetism to suck in the spirit, earthly body custom made to fit only one specific spirit in which case either we have some messed up spirits or whatever, or some being performs a Priesthood right sanctify a specific embryo for that spirit unless for some reason that someone has to pick another embryo instead. Got it?

[Ahab]

Yeah I got the general idea how physical tabernacles are created, and the general idea of how spiritis are created. Which bypasses how spirits get associated with a specific physical body. Here let me spell it out for you: Heavenly Father plus Heavenly Mother create Spirit Child Earthly father plus earthly mother create earthly tabernacle. Heavenly Father ships Spirit child to earthly sphere and somehow it winds up in a specific earthly tabernacle --

Yes...

but Heavenly Father didnt well you know with either parent...

Yes, because that isn't necessary...

so, hm. that leaves: association is random

Random? Why random? Why not planned, according to his wisdom and/or our freedom to choose.

earthly tabernacle uses some form of magnetism to suck in the spirit

The spirit is what is in control, as that's where we are, or where our life is. The spirit is the life of the mortal body, and without it the body would be dead. The body is only a vessel, a tool, for our spirit to use.

earthly body custom made to fit only one specific spirit

Nope, we could go into any body, or at least any body our Father would let us go into. The fact that our Father knows beforehand which body we will choose from among our options and what we will look like doesn't mean there is only one body we can choose.

in which case either we have some messed up spirits or whatever

Yep, or some of us just want a specific type of challenge to overcome in this world.

or some being performs a Priesthood right sanctify a specific embryo for that spirit unless for some reason that someone has to pick another embryo instead. Got it?

Yes, I think so. So what are you having trouble understanding, exactly?

[CASteinman]

Yeah I got the general idea how physical tabernacles are created, and the general idea of how spiritis are created. Which bypasses how spirits get associated with a specific physical body. Here let me spell it out for you: Heavenly Father plus Heavenly Mother create Spirit Child Earthly father plus earthly mother create earthly tabernacle. Heavenly Father ships Spirit child to earthly sphere and somehow it winds up in a specific earthly tabernacle -- but Heavenly Father didnt well you know with either parent so, hm. that leaves: association is random, earthly tabernacle uses some form of magnetism to suck in the spirit, earthly body custom made to fit only one specific spirit in which case either we have some messed up spirits or whatever, or some being performs a Priesthood right sanctify a specific embryo for that spirit unless for some reason that someone has to pick another embryo instead. Got it?

By your logic, the body we rise with in the Resurrection might be male or female. Random assignment.

[Stone holm]

By your logic, the body we rise with in the Resurrection might be male or female. Random assignment.

A actually that is not my theory, i was just laying out certain possible scenarios -- my feeling is that we are specifically assigned to certain embryos probably by Patriarchal Priesthood authority. That would be the most consistent with Mormon folklore and also with the fact that the Church is uncertain when the spirit becomes permanently attached to the physical body. I have heard second hand, that another person having a special interest in the fate of stillborns was told by a GA that in some cases the spirit can be withdrawn from the embryo if something goes haywire and reassigned elsewhere. Those of us who have stillborns in our immediate family often probe pretty deeply into this subject which is otherwise sort of irrelevant for the general membership's life because we want to know about whether we have some spirits waiting for us that we never met in the flesh. I have had some spiritual encounters that give me a testimony as to my two. The subject erupted again, however, because of the argument that the transgenders are making that they have mismatched spirits -- I disagree with them, but there is so little that has actually been said about how the association takes place, that it is difficult to say how any average member could speak with authority on the subject. The simple answer is that we really, really don't know how that association takes place. Some, like Ahab, don't even seem to understand the question so you wind up talking past each other. We clearly have at least a dual creation process since Mormonism is a dualist religion (with the unique twist that we believe that spirits are material), but unlike most dualist religions our spirits are pre-existent and don't come into being with our physical bodies.

[Ahab]

Some, like Ahab, don't even seem to understand the question so you wind up talking past each other. We clearly have at least a dual creation process since Mormonism is a dualist religion (with the unique twist that we believe that spirits are material), but unlike most dualist religions our spirits are pre-existent and don't come into being with our physical bodies.

I understood the question. i was just wondering why you were offering the idea that it could be random. I'm certain that God is either choosing or allowing his children to choose, and in no way it is just random. We were up there a long time before we came here, ya know. Maybe the family we chose to be part of consists of the friends we made while we were there, or maybe our Father just chose for us without favoring our requests because in his wisdom we needed to go to a certain type of family to develop in some way we may not have developed in another family. I don't know (or remember) everything that went on, but the mechanics of it are pretty straightforward. Our spirit is the life of our mortal body, and without a spirit a body would be dead. Thus, we need to be in our body before the cord is cut, since at that time we'll be separated from our Mother. Before that, though, while in the womb, our body is growing because of things contributed by both our Father and Mother and at that time our body is a part of our Mother, with her keeping our body alive. If we're in there at some time I don't think we would need to be in there all of the time, and I think our Mother can develop our body without us. It sure would be boring if that's the only place we could be at that time. Who knows, though, maybe we're given a lot to think about during that time.

[CASteinman]

I disagree with them, but there is so little that has actually been said about how the association takes place,

I would have to believe that people who absolutely need -- with a passion and urgency -- to have a limb removed in order to feel normal -- I would have to believe that those people had deformed spirits that they were trying to match up before I could accept this problem you are describing.

Having said that, I fully and completely accept that there are physical accidents both in development and during life and that we need to recognize these -- both as the vicissitudes of life and as opportunities to love one another.

[Stone holm]

I would have to believe that people who absolutely need -- with a passion and urgency -- to have a limb removed in order to feel normal -- I would have to believe that those people had deformed spirits that they were trying to match up before I could accept this problem you are describing.

Having said that, I fully and completely accept that there are physical accidents both in development and during life and that we need to recognize these -- both as the vicissitudes of life and as opportunities to love one another.

I personally think that God is involved in the matching of spirits with physical bodies and that it is not just a random thing. Also, it is my sincere hope that the process which gives rise to spirit children isn't as susceptible to creating deformed spirits as the process which gives rise to physical bodies. I think we all tend to believe that our spirit bodies are perfect and that when our physical bodies are resurrected that they will perfectly matching those perfect bodies. (There have been some disturbing comments from time to time that throw a slight bit of doubt on that -- but as I lay in some fatty foods I try to forget about that possibility)

[Ahab]

I personally think that God is involved in the matching of spirits with physical bodies and that it is not just a random thing. Also, it is my sincere hope that the process which gives rise to spirit children isn't as susceptible to creating deformed spirits as the process which gives rise to physical bodies. I think we all tend to believe that our spirit bodies are perfect and that when our physical bodies are resurrected that they will perfectly matching those perfect bodies. (There have been some disturbing comments from time to time that throw a slight bit of doubt on that -- but as I lay in some fatty foods I try to forget about that possibility)

Talking about decaps, John the Baptist came back with a head, don't cha know, so yes our spirit is perfect and our resurrected body is perfect. I still wonder what I'm going to look like, though, as I come back looking like me.

[Stone holm]

Talking about decaps, John the Baptist came back with a head, don't cha know, so yes our spirit is perfect and our resurrected body is perfect. I still wonder what I'm going to look like, though, as I come back looking like me.

Actually, I don't know but I assume that it would have been rather awkward for him to have been holding his head under his arm while he was ordaining Joseph and Oliver.

[Ahab]

Actually, I don't know but I assume that it would have been rather awkward for him to have been holding his head under his arm while he was ordaining Joseph and Oliver.

Right, that's what I mean by saying he was perfect as a resurrected being. He had all of his parts, and in the right places.

Or were you just trying to be funny.

[Stone holm]

Right, that's what I mean by saying he was perfect as a resurrected being. He had all of his parts, and in the right places.

Or were you just trying to be funny.

Well, I think we can assume from the Scriptures that all the body parts get put back in there right places -- not sure exactly how we will be able to move our heads if not a hair will be lost, but that aside, I assume that we get put back together. Occasionally, you will hear remarks about that when we first come out we are as we went in -- I kind of shudder, and hope that isn't the case. I think I would opt for about age 18 thank you please -- but given Heavenly Father and Christ are all depicted with beards, probably about age 32 is the right age. Does the person who is obese because of their addiction to food resurrect looking like?????

[Ahab]

Well, I think we can assume from the Scriptures that all the body parts get put back in there right places -- not sure exactly how we will be able to move our heads if not a hair will be lost, but that aside, I assume that we get put back together.

That's not something I am assuming. That's something I am assured of through a testimony from God. We will be in perfect condition, whatever that is, and the fact that "not a hair will be lost" doesn't mean each of our hairs will be as long as each one can be. Even if it's all short, for men anyway, we still won't have lost any hair that has not been restored.

Occasionally, you will hear remarks about that when we first come out we are as we went in -- I kind of shudder, and hope that isn't the case.

Say what? Came out of what, and went in to what?

I think I would opt for about age 18 thank you please -- but given Heavenly Father and Christ are all depicted with beards, probably about age 32 is the right age.

That long white hair is supposedly to make them look more dignified, kinda like how some people's mental image of a prophet is a man with long white hair and a robe. I don't know why some people support the stereotype, but maybe it does give a better visual effect than some young man with short brown hair.

Does the person who is obese because of their addiction to food resurrect looking like?????

Yes. A person in perfect condition, whatever that looks like. Personally, I think I looked better at 40 than at 30, or 18. I'm kinda hoping we can somewhat alter out appearance while still looking like ourselves in perfect condition. There are a few moles and skin spots I could do without, and I'm also not that crazy about the form of my rear end.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Ahab

[Stone holm]

"Say what? Came out of what, and went in to what?" the grave.

[Ahab]

"Say what? Came out of what, and went in to what?" the grave.

I think the general idea they were trying to express is that we'll look pretty much like we did when we were alive, rather than looking like some other person we don't already look like or having wings or something like that. I like the idea that we'll be able to alter our appearance somewhat, though, while we still essentially look like ourselves. People who knew our Lord didn't recognize him sometimes after he was resurreced, and Moroni was able to appear as either a glorious angel or a regular guy walking down a road, or doing farming work. Something about how resurrected beings don't always have to appear in white clothing and surrounded by light, as if they can alter their appearance somewhat. Kinda like how changes are possible with cosmetic surgery, I figure, without having to go through any actual surgery.

[Stone holm]

I think the general idea they were trying to express is that we'll look pretty much like we did when we were alive, rather than looking like some other person we don't already look like or having wings or something like that. I like the idea that we'll be able to alter our appearance somewhat, though, while we still essentially look like ourselves. People who knew our Lord didn't recognize him sometimes after he was resurreced, and Moroni was able to appear as either a glorious angel or a regular guy walking down a road, or doing farming work. Something about how resurrected beings don't always have to appear in white clothing and surrounded by light, as if they can alter their appearance somewhat. Kinda like how changes are possible with cosmetic surgery, I figure, without having to go through any actual surgery.

Well my hope has always been that I will look the best me, that can be. But I read a sermon by Orson Hyde recently that caused me to doubt that just a pinch.