Different Types Of Facts And Packer'S Parable

[Stone holm]

I don't subscribe to the pinball theory of humanity, namely that we are just blank brained balls getting influenced completely by God or the Devil. And i don't think the book Lord of the Flies is a good description of humanity. Yes, I think the Gospel makes good men better, but I have also watched non-believers who don't acknowledge even God's existence nevertheless construct on their own ethical systems for their personal guidance and for running their families which I have to confess are better than any I have witnessed in the Church. They, however, absolutely reject any missionary attempts because of the political aura projected by the majority of Church members. Are they being influenced by God, probably, is a lot of that goodness being generated internally probably. Is Satan keeping them away from Church, possibly because they discern the political evil. But, by and large, I think people are capable of being good somewhat on their own, and they are capable of being bad pretty much on their own.

[CASteinman]

An "involuntary" physical gesture isn't necessarily either good/righteous or evil/wicked, so it's irrelevant to my focus.

Just as these people are not entirely in control of their physical bodies some people are just less capable of choosing to do good.

For some reason you want to believe we are all born equal. Despite the Declaration of Independence we are not. And some of us are less able to do good because it is not in us while some were among the very great and noble ones.

That is what the scriptures teach

[Ahab]

I don't subscribe to the pinball theory of humanity, namely that we are just blank brained balls getting influenced completely by God or the Devil...

I don't accept that idea, either, but we are influenced by either good thoughts from God or evil thoughts from Satan while having the power to choose which thoughts we will work with. We are a living record of all we have ever done or thought about and as we continue to live the record of our life just keeps getting bigger and bigger, hopefully filled wiht more and more intelligent thoughts and actions but sometimes not if we have learned to essentially ignore them.

But, by and large, I think people are capable of being good somewhat on their own, and they are capable of being bad pretty much on their own.

Yes, but there's always plenty of people willing to "help" so people don't have to go it alone. No man is an island unto himself. In some way everyone is impacted by other people in their own lives.

[Ahab]

Just as these people are not entirely in control of their physical bodies some people are just less capable of choosing to do good.

For some reason you want to believe we are all born equal. Despite the Declaration of Independence we are not. And some of us are less able to do good because it is not in us while some were among the very great and noble ones.

That is what the scriptures teach

You're not correctly understanding my ideas, yet, possibly because I'm not always the best at articulating my thoughts. We agree on some level, I think, although I wouldn't say things the way you are saying things.

I agree with the idea that we can become less capable of choosing to do good, but only because either we've become adept at ignoring the good thoughts that would lead to those choices or because we have some kind of brain defect which limits our spirits from making the best use of our brains. One reason is voluntary, stemming from our own past choices carrying over to affect our current choices, and the other reason is involuntary, stemming from a biological defect in our brain structure or brain chemistry or some other problem with our biological mortal body that prevents our brain from correcting the problem.

I know we're not all born equal. Each of us has a long history of all of our thoughts and actions which have influenced who we are now, spiritually/psychologically/morally, and we also either handicapped or more normal mortal bodies. You seem to want to keep gravitating toward how our mortal body affects us, while I'm focusing more on how we can choose the thoughts we work with in our lives while we have the capacity to use our spirits and brains together. Of course there's a problem when our brain interferes with our ability to function. But more often than not it's not our brain but our mind/spirit which is responsible for the bad choices we make. I think relatively few of us can honestly claim to have a biological problem with our brains independent of the will of our spirit.

[CASteinman]

You seem to want to keep gravitating toward how our mortal body affects us, while I'm focusing more on how we can choose the thoughts we work with in our lives while we have the capacity to use our spirits and brains together.

No. I am saying: Some people are not going to be able to live up to things the way you expect them to do. Its not in them.

[Stone holm]

No. I am saying: Some people are not going to be able to live up to things the way you expect them to do. Its not in them.

So did they know that as spirits before they came here?

[Ahab]

No. I am saying: Some people are not going to be able to live up to things the way you expect them to do. Its not in them.

I'm saying it can be in them as they learn to make the proper choices. They don't have to stay as they are. With God to help them, they can become as he is if that is the kind of person they are interested in becoming. And it doesn't have to happen all at once. They can gradually become better and better, learning from their own experiences that it's not good to make bad choices.

Btw, I just noticed your siggy. Very appropriate here. People have to have that hope in them, though, rather than choosing to not be as he is.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Ahab

[Stone holm]

I'm saying it can be in them as they learn to make the proper choices. They don't have to stay as they are. With God to help them, they can become as he is if that is the kind of person they are interested in becoming. And it doesn't have to happen all at once. They can gradually become better and better, learning from their own experiences that it's not good to make bad choices.

Btw, I just noticed your siggy. Very appropriate here. People have to have that hope in them, though, rather than choosing to not be as he is.

Isn't CA kind of making the argument that there may be a lack of capacity? Its an interesting argument. For example, apparently some intelligences lacked the capacity to become humans so they became rocks and animals instead. Still trying to get my head around that -- do we ingest intelligences when we pop a magnesium pill in the morning?

[CASteinman]

So did they know that as spirits before they came here?

I don't know. Maybe. Probably.

[cursor]

Marriage is about procreation according to the Scriptures.

Certainly those who cannot procreate (for any number of very valid reasons) are entitled to the intense companionship that marriage offers. My mother passed away at age 64. My father (who had given birth to eight children) was 66 years old at the time (he's now 89). Two years later he married a widow in the ward (who had previously given birth to 9 children, and was then beyond birthing years. They've enjoyed each other's companionship now for 20+ years. Surely you're not suggest that they (and others like them) should not have married.

[Stone holm]

I don't know. Maybe. Probably.

Well if some people came here knowing they had less than Celestial capacity because they still wanted to book a room in either the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms, what is our moral imperative to compel them to conform to Celestial standards?

[cursor]

Yes, there are always some doubters. As one man said to Jesus -- Help thou my unbelief. Not sure that all doubters want to be helped though.

I'll guaranty you that MANY doubters do want to be helped. Do you not doubt, anything? Surely there are times when you look for support, advice, and counsel from peers and mentors who you feel are more knowledgeable and confident on particular issues than you.

I doubt, therefore I ask for enlightened (or at least alternative) perspectives.

[CASteinman]

Certainly those who cannot procreate (for any number of very valid reasons) are entitled to the intense companionship that marriage offers.

Perhaps -- after all, per the Scriptures Man is for the Woman and Woman for the Man.

[CASteinman]

Do you not doubt, anything?

As a matter of fact, I was wondering about the idea of Adam and Eve being in Missouri just last night.

[CASteinman]

Well if some people came here knowing they had less than Celestial capacity because they still wanted to book a room in either the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms, what is our moral imperative to compel them to conform to Celestial standards?

I don't know that we have any moral imperative to compel them to perform to those standards. However, they should conform to reasonable standards and there is nothing immoral about making bad things illegal.

[Ahab]

Isn't CA kind of making the argument that there may be a lack of capacity? Its an interesting argument. For example, apparently some intelligences lacked the capacity to become humans so they became rocks and animals instead. Still trying to get my head around that -- do we ingest intelligences when we pop a magnesium pill in the morning?

Oh my goodness. What ideas do you have floating around in your head? While there are other kinds of intelligent beings, other than us, the kind of intelligent being we are has always been the same kind of intelligent being as our Father in heaven, and as his children we have the potential to become as perfect as he is, regardless of how much is lacking in us at this time.

I know the word intelligence has more than one meaning, but when used to refer to a kind of intelligent being the intelligence is always of a particular kind, and our kind is the same kind as that of our Father in heaven, rather than the kind of a porpoise or monkey or whale or some other kind of being. We got our kind of intelligence from him as a virtue of being his children.

The other meaning for intelligence is the way the CIA uses the term, when referring to some specific information which they believe to be true. Not all of us are as intelligent as our Father in heaven, in that way, because we haven't gathered as much true information about things as he has, but we are the same kind of intelligence he is and he can add to the true information we have and thus increase our degree of intelligence, regardless of how ill informed we may be at a particular time.

Don't worry. What you don't understand now you can understand later, if you choose to, and our Father can help you understand.

[Ahab]

I'll guaranty you that MANY doubters do want to be helped. Do you not doubt, anything? Surely there are times when you look for support, advice, and counsel from peers and mentors who you feel are more knowledgeable and confident on particular issues than you.

I doubt, therefore I ask for enlightened (or at least alternative) perspectives.

While any of us can give you ideas about things the best way to be sure of something, and to be sure it is true, is to receive an assurance from God. Faith is an assurance, and while others can maybe inspire you to accept their assurance, the best person to get faith from is God, our Father. It's yours for the asking, and you don't have to ask in a formal prayer. Just ponder things in your mind while asking God to help assure you when something is true. He won't make you believe what he tells you, or what he assures you is true, though. Just look for the best thoughts you can possibly get, figuring that all good thoughts come to us from God, our Father, through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and other people they inspire to know what is true.

I think it's fine and dandy to seek thoughts from other people, but it's also important to know who we should be learning from.

[Stone holm]

Oh my goodness. What ideas do you have floating around in your head? While there are other kinds of intelligent beings, other than us, the kind of intelligent being we are has always been the same kind of intelligent being as our Father in heaven, and as his children we have the potential to become as perfect as he is, regardless of how much is lacking in us at this time.

I know the word intelligence has more than one meaning, but when used to refer to a kind of intelligent being the intelligence is always of a particular kind, and our kind is the same kind as that of our Father in heaven, rather than the kind of a porpoise or monkey or whale or some other kind of being. We got our kind of intelligence from him as a virtue of being his children.

The other meaning for intelligence is the way the CIA uses the term, when referring to some specific information which they believe to be true. Not all of us are as intelligent as our Father in heaven, in that way, because we haven't gathered as much true information about things as he has, but we are the same kind of intelligence he is and he can add to the true information we have and thus increase our degree of intelligence, regardless of how ill informed we may be at a particular time.

Don't worry. What you don't understand now you can understand later, if you choose to, and our Father can help you understand.

Do you actually have authority for the idea that intelligences were pre sorted in the manner you suggest. Because I am pretty sure I have read otherwise in the Journal of Discourses.

[Ahab]

Do you actually have authority for the idea that intelligences were pre sorted in the manner you suggest. Because I am pretty sure I have read otherwise in the Journal of Discourses.

Yes I have authority, although I don't remember where I got the ideas, other than knowing the Holy Spirit has told me it's true.

It's not exactly a matter of pre sorting, or I suppose it is in a sense, but I think of it more like each kind of being reproducing after its own kind. Intelligence, or light and truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can it be. Life doesn't begin, it is perpetuated as each kind of being reproduces after its own kind. We are the children of God, and before we were born, spiritually, we were part of our Father and Mother in heaven even before they were our Father and Mother, or even before they were born while they existed only in their parents before them. You've heard the phrase that before you were born you were only a glimmer in your Father's eyes? Well you weren't just in his eyes, but you were also in his genes or whatever you want to call the essence of what he is made of. Even while he was only a baby, or hadn't been born yet by his parents, or any particular set of parents you can imagine, because there have always been parents for all of us at some point in the past. There was never a first person who became the kind of being we are. We are eternal and the kind of being we are, and the kind we have always been, is the same kind as anyone else of our kind.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Ahab

[CASteinman]

as his children we have the potential to become as perfect as he is, regardless of how much is lacking in us at this time.

Maybe.. maybe not for all of us.

[Ahab]

Maybe.. maybe not for all of us.

Well, here's the truth. The truth is that we all can be, but here you are refusing to accept that truth. Maybe you'll choose to change your mind later, and maybe you won't, but regardless of what you choose you can choose to be as perfect as he is, step by step, precept upon precept, however long that may take you. He has the power, but he won't force you and you must accept what he will teach you through faith until you make it far enough for you to see that it either has happened or can happen. That's one of the most awesome things about the power of the gospel, and the atonement, and faith, and repentance, and the power of the Holy Ghost which is the power of God. You can eventually stop doing bad things until at some point you are no longer doing any more bad things and you're doing the good things as well as they can be done.

[CASteinman]

Well, here's the truth. The truth is that we all can be, but here you are refusing to accept that truth.

No, this is not "The truth". This is your preachment.

You do not seem to accept some of the things that the Scriptures say.

[Stone holm]

While any of us can give you ideas about things the best way to be sure of something, and to be sure it is true, is to receive an assurance from God. Faith is an assurance, and while others can maybe inspire you to accept their assurance, the best person to get faith from is God, our Father. It's yours for the asking, and you don't have to ask in a formal prayer. Just ponder things in your mind while asking God to help assure you when something is true. He won't make you believe what he tells you, or what he assures you is true, though. Just look for the best thoughts you can possibly get, figuring that all good thoughts come to us from God, our Father, through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit and other people they inspire to know what is true.

I think it's fine and dandy to seek thoughts from other people, but it's also important to know who we should be learning from.

You may be correct, but that is not the complete story as I understand it. Before we were spirits born of our Heavenly Father and Mother we were intelligences (or perhaps many intelligences), the intelligences were not created, they are co-eternal with God. The intelligences grew and were organized into Spirits -- you say that the intelligences that were organized into Spirits were predestined to be so or that they were of a special quality that made them only capable of being developed into the spirits of humans. Possibly so -- so far I have found no authority for that proposition, so I am asking whether you have authority for that proposition. I too remember reading something to the effect of what I am saying, and I have no witness that what you have said is correct.

[Stone holm]

No, this is not "The truth". This is your preachment.

You do not seem to accept some of the things that the Scriptures say.

We seem to do a lot of that don't we from time to time.

[CASteinman]

We seem to do a lot of that don't we from time to time.

Yes. It can be easy for a few reasons, not the least of which is that the scriptures either actually do or at least seem to contradict one another from 'time to time'.