Latter-Day Saint Misunderstanding Of The Trinity Of Historical Christianity

[teddyaware]

Based on 43 years of experience, it's my perception that a great many Latter-day Saints fundamentally misunderstand the traditional doctrine of the Christian Trinity, as taught for centuries by the Catholics and Protestants. Unfortunately, at least in my experience, Latter-day Saints almost invariably present the traditional Christians' view of the Trinity as an inaccurate Modalistic caricature of what they really do believe. This misapprehension, I believe, does not serve the church well because when inaccurate depictions of the traditional Trinity are presented in Sacrament Meeting talks and gospel lessons, even if done unintentionally, there is a potential opening for critics to lambaste church members as being ignorant, and it's never a good thing to speak inaccuracies in the name of the Lord.

My introduction to a more accurate understanding of the Catholic and Protestant doctrine of the Trinity took place many years ago. Strange as it may seem, I happened upon a televised debate between an adherent to a Modalistic or Sebellianist (one God and one person) view of the Trinity, and the other was an adherent to the traditional Christian view of the Trinity (one God and three personages). It was quite an eye opener when the defender of the traditional view of the Trinity used all the exact same scriptures the missionaries used when they taught me as a young investigator that there are three separate and distinct personages in the Godhead. At first I was somewhat perplexed by this debate (as I remember it, the Modalist got trounced) because, understandably, it made me wonder exactly where the Latter-day Saints and traditional Christians depart from each each other in their mutual understandings of the Trinity.

After some research I discovered where the differences lie between the Latter-day Saints and the traditional Christians. I came to understand that to the Catholics and Protestants exactly how there can be three separate and distinct personages in the Godhead, and yet have these individual personages be only one (God (not three Gods) is a profound, incomprehensible mystery. While on the other hand, the Latter-day Saints take most of the mystery out of the Trinity by teaching that the oneness of the members of the Godhead is a oneness in the divine attributes of perfection possessed by each member of the Godhead as individuals, who act and relate to one another in perfect unity of thought, action, purpose and emotion. As Bruce R. McConkie put it:

"They (the Father and the Son) are one and dwell in each other, meaning: They have the same mind one with another; they think the same thoughts, speak the same words, and perform the same acts—so much so that any thought, word, or act of one is the thought, word, or act of the other... (and) They possess the same character, enjoy the same perfections, and manifest the same attributes, each one possessing all of these in their eternal and Godly fulness." (The Promised Messiah)

The main reason why I believe it's important for the Latter-day Saints to have a proper understanding of the Trinity of the Catholics and Protestants is because it may be a help in our dialogues with them, as it seems there may not really be that much separating us on the doctrine of the Trinity after all.

Why make such a bold claim? Because at least insofar as the issue of the three separate and distinct personages of the Godhead is concerned, the Catholics and Protestants forthrightly declare they don't understand at all how the separate personages of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God. And it's interesting to contemplate that for all they know, once the mystery of the Trinity is finally explained to them, they may come to realize Joseph Smith had it right after all. How are they to know until they do know? Until our traditional Christian brethren can definitively define their terms as to precisely why the separate personages of the Godhead are one God, there can be no real debate. It's not good enough to say it's a mystery, because one day the mystery will be revealed. Then, and only then, can a proper comparison of our mutual understandings on the doctrine of the oneness of the Trinity take place. And that day of the fullness of the revelation of God will come, for we read:

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Any thoughts?

Edited March 6, 2013 by teddyaware

[pogi]

The main reason why I believe it's important for the Latter-day Saints to have a proper understanding of the Trinity of the Catholics and Protestants is because it may be a help in our dialogues with them, as it seems there may not really be that much separating us on the doctrine of the Trinity after all.

I completely agree! 3 separate distinct personages, one God. Isn't that exactly what we teach? "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen" (D&C 20:28). The only real distinction that I see is in our belief of a corporeal Father.

Edited March 6, 2013 by pogi

[teddyaware]

I completely agree! 3 separate distinct personages, one God. Isn't that exactly what we teach? "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen" (D&C 20:28). The only real distinction that I see is in our belief of a corporeal Father.

The corporeal nature of God the Father is the major point of departure for sure. But the other point of departure is that while our Christian brethren agree that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three separtate and distinct personages, they believe the manner in which these three beings are one is an imcomprehensible mystery -- while, conversely, we teach it's not an unknowable mystery at all Their oneness lies in the eternal perfection of each.

Edited March 6, 2013 by teddyaware

[ERayR]

Based on 43 years of experience, it's my perception that a great many Latter-day Saints fundamentally misunderstand the traditional doctrine of the Christian Trinity, as taught for centuries by the Catholics and Protestants. Unfortunately, at least in my experience, Latter-day Saints almost invariably present the traditional Christians' view of the Trinity as an inaccurate Modalistic caricature of what they really do believe. This misapprehension, I believe, does not serve the church well because when inaccurate depictions of the traditional Trinity are presented in Sacrament Meeting talks and gospel lessons, even if done unintentionally, there is a potential opening for critics to lambaste church members as being ignorant, and it's never a good thing to speak inaccuracies in the name of the Lord.

My introduction to a more accurate understanding of the Catholic and Protestant doctrine of the Trinity took place many years ago. Strange as it may seem, I happened upon a televised debate between an adherent to a Modalistic or Sebellianist (one God and one person) view of the Trinity, and the other was an adherent to the traditional Christian view of the Trinity (one God and three personages). It was quite an eye opener when the defender of the traditional view of the Trinity used all the exact same scriptures the missionaries used when they taught me as a young investigator that there are three separate and distinct personages in the Godhead. At first I was somewhat perplexed by this debate (as I remember it, the Modalist got trounced) because, understandably, it made me wonder exactly where the Latter-day Saints and traditional Christians depart from each each other in their mutual understandings of the Trinity.

After some research I discovered where the differences lie between the Latter-day Saints and the traditional Christians. I came to understand that to the Catholics and Protestants exactly how there can be three separate and distinct personages in the Godhead, and yet have these individual personages be only one (God (not three Gods) is a profound, incomprehensible mystery. While on the other hand, the Latter-day Saints take most of the mystery out of the Trinity by teaching that the oneness of the members of the Godhead is a oneness in the divine attributes of perfection possessed by each member of the Godhead as individuals, who act and relate to one another in perfect unity of thought, action, purpose and emotion. As Bruce R. McConkie put it:

"They (the Father and the Son) are one and dwell in each other, meaning: They have the same mind one with another; they think the same thoughts, speak the same words, and perform the same acts—so much so that any thought, word, or act of one is the thought, word, or act of the other... (and) They possess the same character, enjoy the same perfections, and manifest the same attributes, each one possessing all of these in their eternal and Godly fulness." (The Promised Messiah)

The main reason why I believe it's important for the Latter-day Saints to have a proper understanding of the Trinity of the Catholics and Protestants is because it may be a help in our dialogues with them, as it seems there may not really be that much separating us on the doctrine of the Trinity after all.

Why make such a bold claim? Because at least insofar as the issue of the three separate and distinct personages of the Godhead is concerned, the Catholics and Protestants forthrightly declare they don't understand at all how the separate personages of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God. And it's interesting to contemplate that for all they know, once the mystery of the Trinity is finally explained to them, they may come to realize Joseph Smith had it right after all. How are they to know until they do know? Until our traditional Christian brethren can definitively define their terms as to precisely why the separate personages of the Godhead are one God, there can be no real debate. It's not good enough to say it's a mystery, because one day the mystery will be revealed. Then, and only then, can a proper comparison of our mutual understandings on the doctrine of the oneness of the Trinity take place. And that day of the fullness of the revelation of God will come, for we read:

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Any thoughts?

It is hard to blame the Mormons for their inaccuracies when it is their Catholic friends giving them bad information. I too had an inaccurate perception for a long time and it came from Catholic and Protestant friends.

[teddyaware]

It is hard to blame the Mormons for their inaccuracies when it is their Catholic friends giving them bad information. I too had an inaccurate perception for a long time and it came from Catholic and Protestant friends.

So true! It's also been my experience that average lay Catholic and Protestant Church attendees are also woefully ignorant of their own churchs' official teachings on the Trinity. It's a shame there've been so many unpleasent arguments based upon misinformation. One wonders how many psyches have been bruised over the years due to mutual misunderstandings on this issue?

[Flyonthewall]

I can agree with the Trinity from a distance, but the closer to the details I get, the less I agree/understand it. To me, it contains declarations that are mutually exclusive that seem to be by design to uphold the "mystery" aspect of it.

[Darren10]

I've recently become confused over the following: if the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God; but noe three gods but one God and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons yet one being than who is "God" under trinitarian belief?

[teddyaware]

I can agree with the Trinity from a distance, but the closer to the details I get, the less I agree/understand it. To me, it contains declarations that are mutually exclusive that seem to be by design to uphold the "mystery" aspect of it.

I used to find it mystifying as well, but mostly not so any longer. The following Doctrinal Exposition from the First Presidency in 1916 was very helpful in clearing my views on the subject: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/04/the-father-and-the-son?lang=eng&cid=email-shared

[teddyaware]

I've recently become confused over the following: if the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God; but noe three gods but one God and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons yet one being than who is "God" under trinitarian belief?

Our non-LDS Christian friends emphatically declare the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost to be three separate persons who can speak to and interact with each other. How they are one God (not one being) they say is a mystery that cannot be fathomed by mortal minds. The Prophet Joseph Smith largely demystified the Trinity, making it easy enough for even a perceptive child to understand.

[Darren10]

teddyware;

I emphatically agree that Joseph Smith demystified the Godhead. The doctrines of the Father and the Son and their eternal nature via that modern-day prophet of God bring remarkable enlightenment and understanding to man. It also created a unique closeness between man and God while retaining the eternal greatness of the Father and the Son. In fact, I'd say that modern-day revelation elevates God to a "higher status" than does traditional Christianity. For the God the LDS know and worship is that of among the gods, not mere decrapit beings, but gods, God is the highest and is His Christ.

It seems to me that in order to justify the Holy Trinity God *must* be and remain an incomprehensible and unsolvable mystery to man.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Darren10

[teddyaware]

teddyware;

I emphatically agree that Joseph Smith demystified the Godhead. The doctrines of the Father and the Son and their eternal nature via that modern-day prophet of God bring remarkable enlightenment and understanding to man. It also created a unique closeness between man and God while retaining the eternal greatness of the Father and the Son. In fact, I'd say that modern-day revelation elevates God to a "higher status" than does traditional Christianity. For the God the LDS know and worship is that of among the gods, not mere decrapit beings, but gods, God is the highest and is His Christ.

It seems to me that in order to justify the Holy Trinity God *must* be and remain an incomprehensible and unsolvable mystery to man.

A very cogent point indeed! I like it! He is the Most High God...

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

[Questing Beast]

The Trinity in the BoM is straight Protestant doctrine. The Father condescends to become mortal flesh and thus becomes the Son. After atoning for mankind he returns to his original state and becomes the Father and the Son combined. The Lectures on Faith, Five, iirc, clearly states that the Godhead is Two, Father of spirit and Son of tabernacle, with the Holy Spirit as their combined influence, and thus the Godhead is also asserted to be Three. Mutually exclusive statements of fact, because two is not three and three is not two, so one or the other should not have been stated in the first place.

Mormon theology is not monotheistic, it is polytheistic, and therefore the greatest heresy to many Protestants and Catholics. JS did not make the Trinity clear and "de-mystified", he junked it up with polytheism of the most egregious sort: making it out to be nothing more than one god among infinite gods, which we through our own obedience can join by becoming gods and goddesses to our own worlds. That is an unbridgeable chasm between JS's theology and the Trinity of orthodoxy.

In fact the Trinity remains the best position to adhere to, simply because God, being Infinite, cannot ever be comprehended by finite minds such as ours. We will remain finite beings forever, all the while God is expanding in creations, "exponentially" increasing infinitely beyond our even barest beginning of apprehension of God's existence. Therefore, even the Trinity is a mere illustration of how God can be ONE GOD yet manifest as more than one person, even at the same time....

[Calm]

How they are one God (not one being)

For Classical Trinitarians, they are one God, one Being, three persons.

Following this apostolic tradition, the Church confessed at the first ecumenical council at Nicaea (325) that the Son is "consubstantial" with the Father, that is, one only God with him.^66...

66 The English phrases "of one being" and "one in being" translate the Greek word homoousios, which was rendered in Latin by consubstantialis.

http://www.vatican.v...sm/p1s2c1p2.htm Edited March 6, 2013 by calmoriah

[ChristKnight]

The Trinity in the BoM is straight Protestant doctrine. The Father condescends to become mortal flesh and thus becomes the Son. After atoning for mankind he returns to his original state and becomes the Father and the Son combined.

If by "straight Protestant doctrine" you are referring to traditional Trinitarian Protestantism (i.e. Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Evangelicals), then no, what you just described is not held by those groups (nor Catholics or Orthodox).

[Tacenda]

The Trinity in the BoM is straight Protestant doctrine. The Father condescends to become mortal flesh and thus becomes the Son. After atoning for mankind he returns to his original state and becomes the Father and the Son combined. The Lectures on Faith, Five, iirc, clearly states that the Godhead is Two, Father of spirit and Son of tabernacle, with the Holy Spirit as their combined influence, and thus the Godhead is also asserted to be Three. Mutually exclusive statements of fact, because two is not three and three is not two, so one or the other should not have been stated in the first place.

Mormon theology is not monotheistic, it is polytheistic, and therefore the greatest heresy to many Protestants and Catholics. JS did not make the Trinity clear and "de-mystified", he junked it up with polytheism of the most egregious sort: making it out to be nothing more than one god among infinite gods, which we through our own obedience can join by becoming gods and goddesses to our own worlds. That is an unbridgeable chasm between JS's theology and the Trinity of orthodoxy.

In fact the Trinity remains the best position to adhere to, simply because God, being Infinite, cannot ever be comprehended by finite minds such as ours. We will remain finite beings forever, all the while God is expanding in creations, "exponentially" increasing infinitely beyond our even barest beginning of apprehension of God's existence. Therefore, even the Trinity is a mere illustration of how God can be ONE GOD yet manifest as more than one person, even at the same time....

This is what I thought the Trinity was also. Thanks for putting it in context. Never really knew of this until I heard a non LDS Christian describe it. And the concept is shown in the 1830 edition if the BoM.

[ChristKnight]

It is hard to blame the Mormons for their inaccuracies when it is their Catholic friends giving them bad information. I too had an inaccurate perception for a long time and it came from Catholic and Protestant friends.

This is very true. Sadly many Catholics and Protestants seem not to be well versed in what the traditional Trinity doctrine states (Orthodox seem to be better at ti), and describe it in Modalistic terms.

[Calm]

The Father condescends to become mortal flesh and thus becomes the Son. After atoning for mankind he returns to his original state and becomes the Father and the Son combined.

This sounds like modalism, not classical trinitarianism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism

[Calm]

It is hard to blame the Mormons for their inaccuracies when it is their Catholic friends giving them bad information. I too had an inaccurate perception for a long time and it came from Catholic and Protestant friends.

That is why it is nice these days to have authoritative sources, such as vatican.va with the Catechism available for everyone to read.

[Storm Rider]

The Trinity in the BoM is straight Protestant doctrine. The Father condescends to become mortal flesh and thus becomes the Son. After atoning for mankind he returns to his original state and becomes the Father and the Son combined. The Lectures on Faith, Five, iirc, clearly states that the Godhead is Two, Father of spirit and Son of tabernacle, with the Holy Spirit as their combined influence, and thus the Godhead is also asserted to be Three. Mutually exclusive statements of fact, because two is not three and three is not two, so one or the other should not have been stated in the first place.

Mormon theology is not monotheistic, it is polytheistic, and therefore the greatest heresy to many Protestants and Catholics. JS did not make the Trinity clear and "de-mystified", he junked it up with polytheism of the most egregious sort: making it out to be nothing more than one god among infinite gods, which we through our own obedience can join by becoming gods and goddesses to our own worlds. That is an unbridgeable chasm between JS's theology and the Trinity of orthodoxy.

In fact the Trinity remains the best position to adhere to, simply because God, being Infinite, cannot ever be comprehended by finite minds such as ours. We will remain finite beings forever, all the while God is expanding in creations, "exponentially" increasing infinitely beyond our even barest beginning of apprehension of God's existence. Therefore, even the Trinity is a mere illustration of how God can be ONE GOD yet manifest as more than one person, even at the same time....

You make me laugh. The doctrine of the Trinity is an incomprehensible position created by men in order to maintain the divinity of Jesus, the Son of God while also holding to monotheism. If there was to be a son of god then that would make two gods, an untenable position if one was to believe in monotheism. Junked it up? Nothing could be further from the truth. JS removed the philosophies of men from the reality that God the Father send his Son into the world. The Son promised the Second Comforter would come; end of story. There are three in the Godhead and they are not one in the mystical substance that no one seems to explain how this substance limits God into a single God, which only seems to be one in name only. God is God; he allows us, he has created the path for us to become like him. Drop the hogwash if incomprehension, mystical blather and just allow the scriptures to speak for themselves. There is no Substance, just Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I will allow any first grader to count.

[Storm Rider]

This sounds like modalism, not classical trinitarianism.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Sabellianism

It is, and it is not an orthodox position.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Based on 43 years of experience, it's my perception that a great many Latter-day Saints fundamentally misunderstand the traditional doctrine of the Christian Trinity, as taught for centuries by the Catholics and Protestants. Unfortunately, at least in my experience, Latter-day Saints almost invariably present the traditional Christians' view of the Trinity as an inaccurate Modalistic caricature of what they really do believe. This misapprehension, I believe, does not serve the church well because when inaccurate depictions of the traditional Trinity are presented in Sacrament Meeting talks and gospel lessons, even if done unintentionally, there is a potential opening for critics to lambaste church members as being ignorant, and it's never a good thing to speak inaccuracies in the name of the Lord.

My introduction to a more accurate understanding of the Catholic and Protestant doctrine of the Trinity took place many years ago. Strange as it may seem, I happened upon a televised debate between an adherent to a Modalistic or Sebellianist (one God and one person) view of the Trinity, and the other was an adherent to the traditional Christian view of the Trinity (one God and three personages). It was quite an eye opener when the defender of the traditional view of the Trinity used all the exact same scriptures the missionaries used when they taught me as a young investigator that there are three separate and distinct personages in the Godhead. At first I was somewhat perplexed by this debate (as I remember it, the Modalist got trounced) because, understandably, it made me wonder exactly where the Latter-day Saints and traditional Christians depart from each each other in their mutual understandings of the Trinity.

We truly do in many cases parrot the Trinity doctrine, of what we hear other Christians define God, rather than read the early Church Father's words. Once the Internet debate breaks out John 1: 1-3 & 18 are being misquoted...with a topic of the scripture; "I and the Father are one" with a side order of, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father". Then we have to BoM quoted that agrees with all of the above in Modelism true form. Then the feeding frenzy begins...ummmmmmmmm.

[Darren10]

This sounds like modalism, not classical trinitarianism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism

Yes, it is. And modalism, is a big no-no in trinitarian belief. Questing Beast has his own personal quest to clear up what he himself believes and to perhaps do so before condemning Joseph Smith for what he believed.

[Darren10]

You make me laugh. The doctrine of the Trinity is an incomprehensible position created by men in order to maintain the divinity of Jesus, the Son of God while also holding to monotheism. If there was to be a son of god then that would make two gods, an untenable position if one was to believe in monotheism. Junked it up? Nothing could be further from the truth. JS removed the philosophies of men from the reality that God the Father send his Son into the world. The Son promised the Second Comforter would come; end of story. There are three in the Godhead and they are not one in the mystical substance that no one seems to explain how this substance limits God into a single God, which only seems to be one in name only. God is God; he allows us, he has created the path for us to become like him. Drop the hogwash if incomprehension, mystical blather and just allow the scriptures to speak for themselves. There is no Substance, just Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I will allow any first grader to count.

More and more I want to write up my thoughts as to why Mormon theology is the only true monotheistic theology in all christiandom.

[Damien the Leper]

You make me laugh. The doctrine of the Trinity is an incomprehensible position created by men in order to maintain the divinity of Jesus, the Son of God while also holding to monotheism. If there was to be a son of god then that would make two gods, an untenable position if one was to believe in monotheism. Junked it up? Nothing could be further from the truth. JS removed the philosophies of men from the reality that God the Father send his Son into the world. The Son promised the Second Comforter would come; end of story. There are three in the Godhead and they are not one in the mystical substance that no one seems to explain how this substance limits God into a single God, which only seems to be one in name only. God is God; he allows us, he has created the path for us to become like him. Drop the hogwash if incomprehension, mystical blather and just allow the scriptures to speak for themselves. There is no Substance, just Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I will allow any first grader to count.

You realize these statements you've made are simply claims, right?

[BCSpace]

Based on 43 years of experience, it's my perception that a great many Latter-day Saints fundamentally misunderstand the traditional doctrine of the Christian Trinity, as taught for centuries by the Catholics and Protestants.

You are correct. I'm embarrassed when early Mormons describe the trinity as a really "BIG" god or when today's Mormons try to tell you we believe in the trinity too. Nothing could be further from the truth. The three persons of the trinity are indeed separate and distinct individuals hypostatically connected to the same being. But you guys ought to be embarrassed too by the complete anti Biblical nature of the trinity doctrine.