Does Apologetics Drive People Away From The Church?

[Calm]

Why do you suppose that a copy of my thesis can be found in the LDS Church History Library?

Isn't there a mandate out there to collect all the anti-mormon material to stand as a record against the attackers?

[Mike Reed]

Isn't there a mandate out there to collect all the anti-mormon material to stand as a record against the attackers?

Ha! That explains it.

[mfbukowski]

Isn't there a mandate out there to collect all the anti-mormon material to stand as a record against the attackers?

I actually know someone who says his "uncle" is involved in doing exactly this.

[mfbukowski]

PM if this isn't the right place or if you even care to answer, but are you related to the late Eugene England?

I get a similar question all the time. And categorically, no, I am not related to Eugene England.

[Pahoran]

The best possible evidence against the claim that apologetics drives people away from the Church is contained in the following two facts:

1. Those who make that claim are invariably those who themselves want to encourage people to leave the Church, and/or who want to pull the Church from its foundations; and
   
2. Those same people oppose apologetics and do their best to silence apologetic voices.
   

Regards,

Pahoran

[Ahab]

I get a similar question all the time. And categorically, no, I am not related to Eugene England.

Ah, but you are. We're all related.

[teddyaware]

The best possible evidence against the claim that apologetics drives people away from the Church is contained in the following two facts:

1. Those who make that claim are invariably those who themselves want to encourage people to leave the Church, and/or who want to pull the Church from its foundations; and
   
2. Those same people oppose apologetics and do their best to silence apologetic voices.
   

Regards,

Pahoran

Devastatingly true!

[mfbukowski]

Ah, but you are. We're all related.

Relatively speaking of course.

[Ahab]

Isn't there a mandate out there to collect all the anti-mormon material to stand as a record against the attackers?

The material, itself, or the names of the people who keep repeating it?

I'd hate to think we're devoting a lot of storage space to all the posts on CARM, and other similar sites, which keep repeating the same drivel ad infinitum. I know we have the whole universe but I think we should put the storage space we have to better use.

[Tacenda]

I get a similar question all the time. And categorically, no, I am not related to Eugene England.

There's definitely a resemblance for sure.

[canard78]

I don't know anyone with a testimony who was perusing apologetic articles and suddenly said "Hey, this doesn't make sense!". I think what happens is they are having a faith crisis already and for some reason don't find the arguments in apologetic essays persuasive.

It also works both ways. I have yet to read about a non-member who stumbled across the Maxwell Institute and was persuaded to join the church.

Apolgetics is a useful tool, but certainly not the key to conversion or testimony.

Now you do.

The problem I came up against on fairmormon was that it became clear that whenever there was an issue that there was no satisfactory answer to, instead of saying "we can't answer this" they put up smoke and mirrors to distract from it (an attack of the critic, one of the standard quotes about sources of doctrine or an answer to a different question). It's actually in reading FAIR/MI that I started reading things that undermined faith.

I still appreciate the work of FAIR and some of it has help a lot, but I wish they would be more willing to admit to when they didn't have an anser to an issue as trying (and failing) to answer a question undermines credibility.

[Louis Midgley]

I just glanced at this threat again. And I think that defending the faith does not drive people of the community of Saints, but quarrels on message boards about such matters may drive people crazy or out of the Church or both..

[Calm]

Now you do.

The problem I came up against on fairmormon was that it became clear that whenever there was an issue that there was no satisfactory answer to, instead of saying "we can't answer this" they put up smoke and mirrors to distract from it (an attack of the critic, one of the standard quotes about sources of doctrine or an answer to a different question). It's actually in reading FAIR/MI that I started reading things that undermined faith.

I still appreciate the work of FAIR and some of it has help a lot, but I wish they would be more willing to admit to when they didn't have an anser to an issue as trying (and failing) to answer a question undermines credibility.

canard, I think you have a good point. Perhaps you could take some time and point out which one you feel FAIR was doing this on.

[Tacenda]

canard, I think you have a good point. Perhaps you could take some time and point out which one you feel FAIR was doing this on.

I agree, as much as I appreciate FAIR also, I think they should be honest if there are no answers and just say it. That would increase their credibility so much. Edited February 28, 2013 by Tacenda

[canard78]

canard, I think you have a good point. Perhaps you could take some time and point out which one you feel FAIR was doing this on.

I'll make a note as they crop up. One I noticed recently was the answer to the accusation (from Palmer) that the King Benjamin sequence is inspired by a methodist camp meeting where a similar sermon is (apparently) given and an old preacher is about to retire (I forget the details having not read Palmer's book). The FAIR answer includes a video showing the Mayan kings have (some) links to Benjamin's behaviour, but say nothing of the actual accusations.

It's the pattern of casting just enough doubt on someone casting doubt on us (if that makes sense).

[De Groote]

I can't see why anybody would think it is a good idea to turn away from Elder Maxwell's clarion call to end uncontested slam dunks by enemies of Christ and his Church. I can understand why some may not want to do this personally, since not everybody has the same gifts and interests. But I praise God for those who are willing to stand up against those who fight against the Apostles of the Lamb. I thank them for their attempts to help and bless lives. They have indeed made a difference in my life for which I will be eternally grateful.

Thank you apologists both great and small. Thank you defenders of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed through his prophet Joseph Smith. Thank you forever. God bless you. God sustain you. May your attempts -- even though given through imperfect people -- be multiplied by the Holy Ghost. I love your efforts. Keep on fighting the good fight of love against hate and truth against error.

[Calm]

I'll make a note as they crop up. One I noticed recently was the answer to the accusation (from Palmer) that the King Benjamin sequence is inspired by a methodist camp meeting where a similar sermon is (apparently) given and an old preacher is about to retire (I forget the details having not read Palmer's book). The FAIR answer includes a video showing the Mayan kings have (some) links to Benjamin's behaviour, but say nothing of the actual accusations.

It's the pattern of casting just enough doubt on someone casting doubt on us (if that makes sense).

Thank you, I have forwarded this info to someone who can do something about it hopefully (and will do so in the future as well) He may need more info though I think this has enough to pinpoint where it is being discussed.

[Daniel Peterson]

I can't see why anybody would think it is a good idea to turn away from Elder Maxwell's clarion call to end uncontested slam dunks by enemies of Christ and his Church. I can understand why some may not want to do this personally, since not everybody has the same gifts and interests. But I praise God for those who are willing to stand up against those who fight against the Apostles of the Lamb. I thank them for their attempts to help and bless lives. They have indeed made a difference in my life for which I will be eternally grateful.

Thank you apologists both great and small. Thank you defenders of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed through his prophet Joseph Smith. Thank you forever. God bless you. God sustain you. May your attempts -- even though given through imperfect people -- be multiplied by the Holy Ghost. I love your efforts. Keep on fighting the good fight of love against hate and truth against error.

Thank you, Mike. Your comments are deeply, deeply appreciated.

We wouldn't be human if the venom, the hostile mind-reading, the relentless ascription of bad motives, and the constant criticisms never affected us at all.

.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Daniel Peterson

[canard78]

Thank you, I have forwarded this info to someone who can do something about it hopefully (and will do so in the future as well) He may need more info though I think this has enough to pinpoint where it is being discussed.

If needed I'll take a look for it.

I should also add that the overall movement of FAIR/FARMS is immensly appreciated. I recognise that there are lots of people doing lots of work, often for free. It has saved many a member from going too quickly down a rabbit hole.

[canard78]

I think another point which should be bourne in mind, specifically for this board, is that we have a real range of participants on this board.

There are some great intellectuals who obviously enjoy the cut and thrust of debate around the topics. I enjoy that too (though I wouldn't call myself an intellectual by any stretch). I recognise that in that kind of debate there can be a bit of semantics or point scoring as part of the process (Seth Payne called it a "pi$$ing contest" when he and Bill Hamblin recently started disagreeing on the thread Seth had locked).

At the same time, we should be aware that we have general members join and lurk and may expose them to the 'skeletons' they aren't interested in. E.g. I hesitated to post the full detail of the Mitchill experience because the first time I read it it was a massive faith shaker. I posted it anyway as it was in the context of an Anthon discussion.

We also have people participate who may be in a genuine state of emotional devastation having had their "shelf crash" and looking for help. Sometimes the battle-weary can be a but curt in their reply to concerns that are genuine and heatfelt.

For both of the last two types, this board could cause more harm than good. I don't know how we get around that beyond closed discussions, which would be counter productive.

In some ways, better to discover the skeletons here, where answers can be given, than elsewhere. Part of the gradual inoculation.

[Calm]

I recognise that there are lots of people doing lots of work, often for free.

I don't know of anyone doing apologetic work who is paid for that work...no one gets paid at FAIR save the bookstore manager for example. My understanding is that at the MI, the only people connected with the Review who got paid were those who were editors, no one doing the actual apologetic work in other words, just those helping with the publishing (likely many of the people that did the technical work of publishing got paid).

[Calm]

At the same time, we should be aware that we have general members join and lurk and may expose them to the 'skeletons' they aren't interested in. E.g. I hesitated to post the full detail of the Mitchill experience because the first time I read it it was a massive faith shaker. I posted it anyway as it was in the context of an Anthon discussion.

We also have people participate who may be in a genuine state of emotional devastation having had their "shelf crash" and looking for help. Sometimes the battle-weary can be a but curt in their reply to concerns that are genuine and heatfelt.

For both of the last two types, this board could cause more harm than good. I don't know how we get around that beyond closed discussions, which would be counter productive.

In some ways, better to discover the skeletons here, where answers can be given, than elsewhere. Part of the gradual inoculation.

These are issues that FAIR is well aware of and constantly discusses on how to help alleviate....how to get the information out there in a way that results in positive movement to resolving faith issues without contributing in a negative way. Unfortunately we can't control how people read our material so that in itself is a huge variable we can do nothing about.

[Tacenda]

I think another point which should be bourne in mind, specifically for this board, is that we have a real range of participants on this board.

There are some great intellectuals who obviously enjoy the cut and thrust of debate around the topics. I enjoy that too (though I wouldn't call myself an intellectual by any stretch). I recognise that in that kind of debate there can be a bit of semantics or point scoring as part of the process (Seth Payne called it a "pi$$ing contest" when he and Bill Hamblin recently started disagreeing on the thread Seth had locked).

At the same time, we should be aware that we have general members join and lurk and may expose them to the 'skeletons' they aren't interested in. E.g. I hesitated to post the full detail of the Mitchill experience because the first time I read it it was a massive faith shaker. I posted it anyway as it was in the context of an Anthon discussion.

We also have people participate who may be in a genuine state of emotional devastation having had their "shelf crash" and looking for help. Sometimes the battle-weary can be a but curt in their reply to concerns that are genuine and heatfelt.

For both of the last two types, this board could cause more harm than good. I don't know how we get around that beyond closed discussions, which would be counter productive.

In some ways, better to discover the skeletons here, where answers can be given, than elsewhere. Part of the gradual inoculation.

I've been slowly innoculated by discussing on this board from the doubt infection I received from the anti sites I've stumbled across. So members need to know some issues. Especially if they are discussed openly in the Ensign every several years. And this board is so nicely balanced!

[canard78]

I've been slowly innoculated by discussing on this board from the doubt infection I received from the anti sites I've stumbled across. So members need to know some issues. Especially if they are discussed openly in the Ensign every several years. And this board is so nicely balanced!

I agree that innoculation is important and, in some ways, the fairmormon site offers this. I came accross polyandry first there. The 'eternal sealings' explanation worked for me.

There's a version 'A' that we get in Sunday School. There's a version 'B' that is closer to the reality. Unfortunately most people feel they have to go from A to Z to get the truth... and Z is a dark place that doesn't make me happy. Some of the people who go to Z first never reach B.

Finding out a few of them may have been sexual polyandrous relationship was another step of having to do a bit of mental gymnastics...

(Source: Brian Hales, thought I've not followed the sources for it yet)

[Tacenda]

I agree that innoculation is important and, in some ways, the fairmormon site offers this. I came accross polyandry first there. The 'eternal sealings' explanation worked for me.

There's a version 'A' that we get in Sunday School. There's a version 'B' that is closer to the reality. Unfortunately most people feel they have to go from A to Z to get the truth... and Z is a dark place that doesn't make me happy. Some of the people who go to Z first never reach B.

Finding out a few of them may have been sexual polyandrous relationship was another step of having to do a bit of mental gymnastics...

(Source: Brian Hales, thought I've not followed the sources for it yet)

My point was that the ability to discuss openly the problems, since one cannot in SS and with believing members/apologists instead of angry ex mormons is better for someone who needs to stay in the faith. I can't think of another board like it! If it weren't for this board my life would have been much worse. But canard, I see where you're coming from. People are now going to run into this problem, they need to discuss in the open or they'll just be an angry ex mormon possibly. I had days that I was ready to resign. But glad I didn't and it was because of, well you know...this board and other places that openly discuss like Mormon Stories, I said it. That's why they all (FAIR, Mormon Interpreter, and Mormon Stories) need to unite, lol! Edited February 28, 2013 by Tacenda