Calm Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 it is an error to assume that the great and abominable church and the church of the devil are the same thing. I submit they are not.9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil. 10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.If there are only two churches and the great and abominable is called a church, then how can it not be the church of the devil as referenced in the very next verse? We know the GandA is not the church of the Lamb of God, that leaves it being the church of the devil.
Calm Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—The church of the devil is referred to as the "mother of abominations" and the GandA is the "mother of harlots" and in this verse it would appear that they are the same thing.GandA=mother of harlots=mother of abominations=church of the devil
Alan Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 The church of the devil is referred to as the "mother of abominations" and the GandA is the "mother of harlots" and in this verse it would appear that they are the same thing.GandA=mother of harlots=mother of abominations=church of the devilI disagree.
Calm Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) I disagree.Why? Please demonstrate that the structure I have pointed out in those verses does not exist. Edited February 11, 2013 by calmoriah
cdowis Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 I believe the Book of Mormon is very clear on this.OK, there are only two churches. Please tell us specifically what that means, since it is very clear.
Alan Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 I already did.The great and abominable church is obviously part of the church of the devil, as are drugs or internet porn. But the great and abominable church is a church in my view. That is what the scripture says.
mfbukowski Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 What does D&C 18:20 mean?Contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil.Was The Lord telling the early Latter Day Saints to avoid contending with Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians, and to contend only with Roman Catholics?What do all the passages in 1 Nephi, that speak about the great and abominable church" mean?Are they speaking of the Roman Catholic Church?Did the first Presidency ever clarify this?The church of the devil is Babylon or the World- sinful mankind, not the Catholic church 1
BCSpace Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 Did no one read my post? The one where Joseph Smith specifically says that the Catholic Church is not bad [and, uh, therefore cannot be the Church of the Devil]? The one where all the insular quotes people like to dig up about how all the other Churches are evil Babylon are refuted with just-as-authoritative quotes that show how Universalist we are, particularly if we read the Book of Mormon in the correct context?Oh ...... oh no ...It's finally happened. I've turned invisible.Don't feel bad. No one read my post where I quoted the latest LDS doctrine on the subject which I'm sorry to say is not quite what you seem to be implying.
thesometimesaint Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 http://www.mormonfortress.com/ga.html 1
cdowis Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) I already did.The great and abominable church is obviously part of the church of the devil, as are drugs or internet porn. But the great and abominable church is a church in my view. That is what the scripture says.Interesting idea, that the G&A and the church of the devil are two different constructs. I learn alot when my assumptions are challenged, as you have done. It should have been obvious. Edited February 11, 2013 by cdowis
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) http://www.mormonfortress.com/ga.html A-frickin'-men. Thanks for the great link, thesometimesaint. I ditto it heartily, and especially like this bit:In a 1906 Conference address, [b. H.] Roberts remarked that he had previously been asked if the Book of Mormon’s “church of the devil” referred to the Catholic Church.“Well,” said I, in answer, “I would not like to take that position, because it would leave me with a lot of churches on my hands that I might not then be able to classify.” So far as the Catholic church is concerned, I believe that there is just as much truth, nay, personally I believe it has retained even more truth than other divisions of so-called Christendom; and there is just as much virtue, and I am sure there is more strength in the Roman Catholic church than there is in Protestant Christendom.I would not like, therefore, to designate the Catholic church as the church of the devil. Neither would I like to designate any one or all of the various divisions and subdivisions of Protestant Christendom combined as such church; nor the Greek Catholic church; nor the Buddhist sects; nor the followers of Confucius; nor the followers of Mohammed; nor would I like to designate even the societies formed by deists and atheists as constituting the church of the devil. The Book of Mormon text ought to be read in connection with its context -- with the chapter that precedes it and the remaining portions of the chapter in which it is found -- then, I think, those who study it in that manner will be forced to the conclusion that the Prophet here has in mind no particular church, no particular division of Christendom." Edited February 11, 2013 by JeremyOrbe-Smith 1
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 The church of the devil is Babylon or the World- sinful mankind, not the Catholic churchGood point...anything that is untrue, or it teachings is the Church of the Devil. Whomever teaches truth is part of the Church of God. These are the only true Churches...too often the same people can be members of both.
Tacenda Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 Could church mean a body of believers in Jesus Christ and non believers church of the devil?
glitterNgold Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 Church of the devil = Satan's churchIt's not that complicated. Devil worshipers belong to the church of the devil. Do Catholics worship Satan? No. The Catholics believe in the Lamb of God. All Christians worship the Lamb... Why would any church besides a satanic church be called the church of the devil? Why is this even a question?
blackstrap Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 Just as a plus sign (+ ) does not always mean Add . So ,the word 'Church ' does not always mean an organized community .
glitterNgold Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 Good point...anything that is untrue, or it teachings is the Church of the Devil. Whomever teaches truth is part of the Church of God. These are the only true Churches...too often the same people can be members of both. Uh... No. The church of the devil is a church in which people come to worship Satan.
Ahab Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 Uh... No. The church of the devil is a church in which people come to worship Satan.You don't have to know the person you are worshipping is Satan, though. People worship Satan by worshipping what he stands for, and the things he says both about himself and other people, and the lifestyle he approves of. Lots of people go to places where the person they are worshipping is Satan even though they don't realize it is Satan they are worshipping. Satan is a master deceiver, and he even claims to be God, so the fact that someone claims to be God doesn't mean he's the God we should be worshipping or trying to be like.
glitterNgold Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 You don't have to know the person you are worshipping is Satan, though. People worship Satan by worshipping what he stands for, and the things he says both about himself and other people, and the lifestyle he approves of. Lots of people go to places where the person they are worshipping is Satan even though they don't realize it is Satan they are worshipping. Satan is a master deceiver, and he even claims to be God, so the fact that someone claims to be God doesn't mean he's the God we should be worshipping or trying to be like.WTH?No.If someone worships Krishna and what he represents (compassion), do we call Hinduism Christianity or the Church of Christ because Christ also represents compassion?The church of the devil is any church that is presided over and whose believers follow Satan. They pray to satan and acknowledge satan as their supreme leader.
altersteve Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 (edited) If someone worships Krishna and what he represents (compassion), do we call Hinduism Christianity or the Church of Christ because Christ also represents compassion?Of course not. But the "Church of the Lamb" in this case does not refer to Christianity. You're looking at this from a very black and white perspective, and unfortunately it's not that simple.Uh... No. The church of the devil is a church in which people come to worship Satan.No, Satanism is just part of the church of the devil. The church of the devil is more about ideas, choices, and ways of life which draw God's children away from Him; in other words, sin. It's not a specific organization or group of people. I believe it was Maidservant, another poster on these boards, who had some incredible insights to share on this subject in another thread. I'll see if I can find it.Edit: Found it.http://www.mormondia...ns/page__st__60See post #80. Edited February 12, 2013 by altersteve
Damien the Leper Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 (edited) Just as an FYI, this Great and Spacious Building can be found in Tempe, AZ on the ASU campus...it even comes with a Great and Spacious Parking Garage:Eat that Nephi! Your building doesn't cut it! Edited February 12, 2013 by Valentinus
Calm Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 (edited) Interesting idea, that the G&A and the church of the devil are two different constructs. I learn alot when my assumptions are challenged, as you have done. It should have been obvious.I don't think so. Nephi specifies one category---churches, states there are two in the category and then identifies them as the church of the Lamb and the church of the devil. It makes no sense for him to then say 'oh wait, there is a third church' nor does it make logical sense for him to use the name of the category to identify just part of that category. And when parallel language is used for both labels----mother of harlots, mother of abominations---logically Nephi is applying two labels to the same thing. The church of the Lamb has many names, such as church of the Firstborn; it would be consistent for the church of the devil to do depending on what aspect of it the author wanted to emphasize.That does not preclude the RCC from being part of the church of the devil (other things do that), it just makes it inappropriate to label a specific organization as the GandA church. Edited February 12, 2013 by calmoriah
Ahab Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 WTH?No.If someone worships Krishna and what he represents (compassion), do we call Hinduism Christianity or the Church of Christ because Christ also represents compassion?Yes. It may not be as much about Christ as it could be, but it's still either a church of Christ (good) or a church of Satan (evil). Something is either good or it isn't, and if it is good then it is associated with God/Christ.The church of the devil is any church that is presided over and whose believers follow Satan. They pray to satan and acknowledge satan as their supreme leader.Yes, but they don't have to refer to him by that name, "Satan". They could also call him the Devil, or Lucifer, or the Prince of Darkness, or the one and only supreme God above all others with the idea that he is the best God anyone can possibly worship. Satan calls himself God, and so do many of his followers. He doesn't try to straighten anyone out if they call him God, as if that's something that he shouldn't be called. And he believes he is the best kind of being there is, better than even our Father in heaven, so he believes he is the one who we should worship as the most supreme being in all of existence. It's not as clear cut as you seem to think it is out there in the real world.
Ahab Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 That does not preclude the RCC from being part of the church of the devil (other things do that), it just makes it inappropriate to label a specific organization as the GandA church.There are people in the RCC that are part of the church of the devil just as there are people in the "LDS" church that are part of the church of the devil. And vice versa, too, with people in either being part of the church of Christ. A church is a group of people, so the fact that someone is a "member" of a specific group dosn't mean they are in only that group. Most people are actually in both groups, or churches, to some extent, and the ones who are in only one but not the other are on one of the extreme sides of the spectrum.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 Uh... No. The church of the devil is a church in which people come to worship Satan.Could you disagree a little more politely, and not attempt to slam the door shut on discussion?
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