inquiringmind Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 (edited) What does D&C 18:20 mean?Contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil.Was The Lord telling the early Latter Day Saints to avoid contending with Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians, and to contend only with Roman Catholics?What do all the passages in 1 Nephi, that speak about the great and abominable church" mean?Are they speaking of the Roman Catholic Church?Did the first Presidency ever clarify this? Edited February 10, 2013 by inquiringmind
blackstrap Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 No , they are not speaking of the RCC ! There is the Church of the Lamb of God and there is the Church of the Devil. Just make sure you are in the right one on any given day.
inquiringmind Posted February 10, 2013 Author Posted February 10, 2013 No , they are not speaking of the RCC ! There is the Church of the Lamb of God and there is the Church of the Devil. Just make sure you are in the right one on any given day.Is there any passage, or any statement from the first presidency that clarifies what they are speaking of?
blackstrap Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 A search of this forum on Church of the Devil will eventually take you to a thread started by Saints Alive on Dec 31 with a similar title. You should probably start there.
Saints Alive Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 I thought this title sounded familiar! I thought someone received my old thread.
Scott Lloyd Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 A search of this forum on Church of the Devil will eventually take you to a thread started by Saints Alive on Dec 31 with a similar title. You should probably start there.Or you could go to this link:http://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warring-against-the-saints-of-god?lang=eng
inquiringmind Posted February 10, 2013 Author Posted February 10, 2013 I thought this title sounded familiar! I thought someone received my old thread.No, but I did find it.On Jan. 1, 2013 you posted this.As it is Scripture to us it would be problematic to reject the ideas expressed in it. But I do reject those that would posit a particular church as being the church of the Devil without their agreement and consent. So there is a church of the Devil, and people whom do worship the Devil in the literal sense. Plus those that work against God in a more religious sense. I believe that Scripture references the latter and not the former.To be specific the Prophets have publicly declared the Catholic church is not the church of the devil. But you didn't provide any quotes or citations.What Prophets have publicly said that the RCC isn't the church of the devil?
Scott Lloyd Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 No, but I did find it.On Jan. 1, 2013 you posted this.But you didn't provide any quotes or citations.What Prophets have publicly said that the RCC isn't the church of the devil?Stephen Robinson said so in the link I provided. He's not the prophet, but his article is in the Church's official magazine. If the Brethren thought the Catholic Church was the church of the devil, I doubt they'd allow that to be contradicted in the official magazine.
inquiringmind Posted February 10, 2013 Author Posted February 10, 2013 Stephen Robinson said so in the link I provided. He's not the prophet, but his article is in the Church's official magazine.If the Brethren thought the Catholic Church was the church of the devil, I doubt they'd allow that to be contradicted in the official magazine.Thank you.I followed that link, and I was just reading that article.But I would still like to know if any Prophets have publicly said that the RCC isn't the church of the devil (as Saints Alive said they have.)
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 (edited) Whenever Mormons have felt particularly annoyed at Those Damn Papists, we've twisted the plain sense of the Book of Mormon to attempt to pin the big bad scary Church o' the Devil label on the Catholics. The text of the Book of Mormon itself, however, makes it quite clear that the Church of the Devil is composed not of any particular sect, but rather those who Accuse others and seek after power, authority, monetary gain, etc., regardless of which Church they are ostensibly a part of, in name only. Therefore, there are plenty of Catholics (and Protestants, and any other religionists) who are acting in good faith according to the light they have who are part of the Church of the Lamb, and plenty of Mormons who have gone over to the Dark Side, though they might profess to be Awesome Specimens Of Piety.Joseph Smith said: "The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, 'I am the true tree, and you are corrupt.' If the whole tree is corrupt, are not its branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it?" He's plainly making the point that the Catholic Church is not the boogeyman.On another occasion, Joseph Smith said: "The Jew believes that the whole world that rejects his faith and are not circumcised, are Gentile dogs, and will be damned. The heathen is equally as tenacious about his principles, and the Christian consigns all to perdition who cannot bow to his creed, and submit to his ipse dixit. But while one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feeling that influence the children of men, causes 'His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.'"Furthermore, Joseph Smith says: "He holds the reins of judgment in His hands; He is a wise Lawgiver, and will judge all men, not according to the narrow, contracted notions of men, but, 'according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or evil,' or whether these deeds were done in England, America, Spain, Turkey, or India. He will judge them, 'not according to what they have not, but according to what they have,' those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will be judged by that law. We need not doubt the wisdom and intelligence of the Great Jehovah; He will award judgment or mercy to all nations according to their several deserts, their means of obtaining intelligence, the laws by which they are governed, the facilities afforded them of obtaining correct information, and His inscrutable designs in relation to the human family; and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right."And let's be clear, here: this is not restricted to a specific Church, or political party, or race. On another occasion, [and remember this was decades before the American Civil War] Joseph Smith said:“My cogitations, like Daniel's, have for a long time troubled me, when I viewed the condition of men throughout the world, and more especially in this boasted realm, where the Declaration of Independence ‘holds these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness;’ but at the same time some two or three millions of people are held as slaves for life, because the spirit in them is covered with a darker skin than ours.” According to Joseph Smith: "They came into the world slaves mentally and physically [but] change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine off many of those they brush and wait on."In contrast, the Book of Mormon states that "none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile."As 2 Nephi so movingly asks, "Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?"Note the geography mentioned here: England, America, Spain, Turkey, India were cited; personally, I see this as quite obviously capable of being applicable to English Anglicans and the ancient peoples of the Isles, Native Americans of both hemispheres, Sephardic Jews and Moors in Spain, Hittites and other Indo-European religions represented in Turkey, and Hindus and Buddhists in India and on into the rest of Asia, plus the nations in the "isles of sea" -- not just the isles in the Mediterranean, but also those spreading from Indonesia and Australia and out into the Pacific. The "Lamanites" will bloom like a rose; God keeps the "heathen" in mind and all are alike unto him, both Jew and Gentile. We're basically Universalists, because we're all part of the same human family. The Roman Catholics are not the Church of the Devil; neither is any other particular religion as such. It's all an internal matter for individual people. Edited February 10, 2013 by JeremyOrbe-Smith 1
Sky Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 In short, the "Church of the Devil" does not refer to a specific religious body, Roman Catholic or otherwise. President Hinckley said to bring with you all the good that you learned from whatever source, and let us see if we may add unto it... The Church of the Devil can be thought of as "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture" - and I think we're all susceptible to that to some extent or another, regardless of our religious persuasions. That's one of the reasons why having the Holy Ghost as a constant companion is a necessity. At least that's Sky's opinion - not necessarily doctrinal.
why me Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 What Prophets have publicly said that the RCC isn't the church of the devil?The question is: Why would they need to? If they have given a statement what exactly is the church of the devil and the RCC is not mentioned that should be enough. Unless of course, the lds church should list every church or organization that is not of the devil. Why single out the RCC?
inquiringmind Posted February 10, 2013 Author Posted February 10, 2013 The question is: Why would they need to? If they have given a statement what exactly is the church of the devil and the RCC is not mentioned that should be enough. Unless of course, the lds church should list every church or organization that is not of the devil. Why single out the RCC?Saints Alive said that they had.And if they have, I'd like to read what they said in context.Doesn't anyone know of any quotes (or was Saints Alive just flat out wrong)?
Saints Alive Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 (edited) Saints Alive said that they had.And if they have, I'd like to read what they said in context.Doesn't anyone know of any quotes (or was Saints Alive just flat out wrong)?I believe you misattributed that quote to me. Please provide a link to the post where I said that.ETA: I just checked, I am now sure that I said no such thing on 1 jan 2013. Please retract your assertion. Edited February 10, 2013 by Saints Alive
inquiringmind Posted February 11, 2013 Author Posted February 11, 2013 I believe you misattributed that quote to me. Please provide a link to the post where I said that.ETA: I just checked, I am now sure that I said no such thing on 1 jan 2013. Please retract your assertion.I'm sorry.It was posted by thesometimesaint on 1 Jan 2013, and I'd still like to know if it's true.Did any prophets publicly say that the RCC isn't the church of the devil?
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 What does D&C 18:20 mean?Contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil.Was The Lord telling the early Latter Day Saints to avoid contending with Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians, and to contend only with Roman Catholics?What do all the passages in 1 Nephi, that speak about the great and abominable church" mean?Are they speaking of the Roman Catholic Church?Did the first Presidency ever clarify this?The "Church of the Devil" is any incorrect belief system that keeps people from the truth...it is not any one org, nor does it make the people evil, just unknowing of all truth. Catholics are not evil.
williamsmith Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 But you didn't provide any quotes or citations.What Prophets have publicly said that the RCC isn't the church of the devil?I'm not going to spend time on this well known issue, but the Church has ALWAYS taught that the Lamb is that which is of the Light and the Devil that which is of darkness. The Church of the Devil has never meant the RCC. From the very beginning Church leaders corrected Orson Pratt of his Protestant views of the matter, and they corrected Bruce R. McKonkie when he put the same historical protestant view in his Mormon Doctrine book, and so he removed it from his Second Edition.The only people who actually promote this idea as being "Mormon" are our enemy's by cherry picking history.. 1
BCSpace Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 Robinson almost nixes it by to failing to mention that if Christ has one's heart one will surely and ultimately accept Christ's baptism and Church thus making who has one's record of greatest importance in the end; but caught himself just in time when he further qualified in the aforementioned Ensign article:Rather, the role of Babylon has been played by many different agencies, ideologies, and churches in many different times.Here is the doctrine on the OP's verse:D&C 18:20. What Is the “Church of the Devil”?The use of the word church to describe Satan and his followers has confused some because they think of the term in the more limited sense of a specific religious organization. But if one thinks of the phrase “the church and kingdom of God,” one has a better concept of what is meant by the church of the devil. It is his kingdom, the sphere of his influence, the whole of his area of power.Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained that “the titles church of the devil and great and abominable church are used to identify all churches or organizations of whatever name or nature—whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or religious—which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from God and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of God” (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 137–38).This definition explains why Nephi was taught that “there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church” (1 Nephi 14:10). In the scriptures Satan’s kingdom is called by various names: Babylon, the great and abominable church, the mother of harlots, the church of the devil, and the kingdom of the devil (see 1 Nephi 22:22; 2 Nephi 28:18–19; Mormon 8:28–38; D&C 10:56; 18:20).It is, therefore, the obligation of the Saints to stand against evil wherever it may be found. The method of doing so is clear, according to President Joseph Fielding Smith: “All who go forth to teach should do so in wisdom and not contend with the churches or engage in profitless debates, but teach in the spirit of kindness and try to persuade people to receive the truth” (Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:83).http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/sections-10-to-20/section-18-the-worth-of-a-soul?lang=eng
BCSpace Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) The "Church of the Devil" is any incorrect belief system that keeps people from the truth...it is not any one org, nor does it make the people evil, just unknowing of all truth. Catholics are not evil.Agreed. But their belief system keeps people from the truth. I think we generally break the news to people in the right way. Our Church does not go after other churches. In the course of investigating us, they will generally see on their own JS-H 1:19, the BoM verses, D&C 76:99-101, the doctrine, etc. and make a decision. Edited February 11, 2013 by BCSpace
Alan Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 To me, it is pretty obvious that the "great and abominable church" referred to by Nephi is the Roman Catholic Church. however, while it is easy to make the connection, it is an error to assume that the great and abominable church and the church of the devil are the same thing. I submit they are not.So, to me, the church of the devil refers to his kingdom in all of it's forms. Remember "church" refers to people or congregation. So we are to understand that this refers to his congregation of adherents. Those who participate in his programme of wickedness in all of it's manifestations.The great and abominable church however, is obviously the RCC.
altersteve Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 I'm sorry.It was posted by thesometimesaint on 1 Jan 2013, and I'd still like to know if it's true.Did any prophets publicly say that the RCC isn't the church of the devil?They have publicly said what the church of the devil is. They don't have to say what it isn't. 1
why me Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 I'm sorry.It was posted by thesometimesaint on 1 Jan 2013, and I'd still like to know if it's true.Did any prophets publicly say that the RCC isn't the church of the devil?They might have done so when McConkie's book Mormon Doctrine was changed. However, the change in the book is a sure sign that they didn't agree with McConkie.
djholmess Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) A few intresting quotes I found from earlier leaders.....seems like they saw any denomination of 'christendom' as being of the Church of the Devil:"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon" (Orson Pratt, Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, "Divine Authenticity," no.6, p.84)"And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act." (Orson Pratt, OP-WA, "The Kingdom of God," no.2, p.6)"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness." (Pratt, The Seer, p.255)"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christiandom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common orgin. They belong to Babylon." (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, p.324) Edited February 11, 2013 by djholmess
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 Did no one read my post? The one where Joseph Smith specifically says that the Catholic Church is not bad [and, uh, therefore cannot be the Church of the Devil]? The one where all the insular quotes people like to dig up about how all the other Churches are evil Babylon are refuted with just-as-authoritative quotes that show how Universalist we are, particularly if we read the Book of Mormon in the correct context?Oh ... ... oh no ... It's finally happened. I've turned invisible.
Alan Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 Did no one read my post? The one where Joseph Smith specifically says that the Catholic Church is not bad [and, uh, therefore cannot be the Church of the Devil]?Joseph Smith is not the final authority. He can be wrong and often was.I believe the Book of Mormon is very clear on this.
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