Desnews: 33 Scout Councils Ask Bsa To Delay Decision

[Tacenda]

Why conclude that you had it backwards. I still think there is a possibility that your hypothesis is correct.

After watching the news and reading newsclips it appears that the church may be why there is the delay. I was dumbfounded when I heard the church operates 99% of the BS Troops. Maybe they mean in Utah. Why would the news say this?

[california boy]

Sounds to me like a corrupt executive board floated a trial balloon and found the waters to be boiling hot While they represent a lot of money, it's time to remove Turley and Stephenson from that board. BSA also needs to get a different honorary president.

How do you know that it is not the church itself that is pushing for this change? If you follow the counsel of the church, we should be inclusive to any gay member willing to be celibate. Do you really think that the church wants to ostracize a gay young man from all young men activities just because he is gay? What faithful member would support not allowing a gay member to join in all church activities as long as they are celibate? How can you follow the counsel of the prophet and not want the BSA to change it's policy? Or do you think the counsel of the prophet was not inspired?

[Scott Lloyd]

After watching the news and reading newsclips it appears that the church may be why there is the delay. I was dumbfounded when I heard the church operates 99% of the BS Troops. Maybe they mean in Utah. Why would the news say this?

I don't think you understood the report correctly. The Great Salt Lake Council, which was leading the grass roots effort to delay the vote on the proposal, is 99 percent composed of LDS units, but that is definitely not the case for the entire BSA organization.

I think you must have tuned in to the reports late or somehow missed the context of what you were reading/viewing/hearing.

[Scott Lloyd]

How do you know that it is not the church itself that is pushing for this change? If you follow the counsel of the church, we should be inclusive to any gay member willing to be celibate. Do you really think that the church wants to ostracize a gay young man from all young men activities just because he is gay? What faithful member would support not allowing a gay member to join in all church activities as long as they are celibate? How can you follow the counsel of the prophet and not want the BSA to change it's policy? Or do you think the counsel of the prophet was not inspired?

Again, I categorically reject the notion that one cannot oppose the proposed change without ignoring or rejecting the counsel of the Church.

Under the status quo, Scouting does not inquire into the sexual proclivities of its it's members or leaders. That means that under the current system, a gay but celibate individual already can be involved in Scouting. There is no need for a change in policy to accommodate that.

To say that the Church is the entity that is pushing for the change strikes me as outlandish. That, as much as anything else, is indulging in the speculation that yesterday's statement from the Church cautioned against.

[Calm]

Why would the news say this?

Because it is local news? What channel?

http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile2/55782402-218/scouts-church-national-gay.html.csp

The LDS Church sponsors 99 percent of the 5,000 Scout troops in the Salt Lake City area, according to local officials.

[CV75]

I apologize if I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

No problem--I'll try to clarify as needed.

[rockpond]

Again, I categorically reject the notion that one cannot oppose the proposed change without ignoring or rejecting the counsel of the Church.

Under the status quo, Scouting does not inquire into the sexual proclivities of its it's members or leaders. That means that under the current system, a gay but celibate individual already can be involved in Scouting. There is no need for a change in policy to accommodate that.

I agree that one can oppose the proposed change (on the grounds that it fails to distinguish between orientation and behavior) and not be ignoring the counsel of the church.

However, I am not sure about your second assertion. While it seems correct that the BSA does not ask, there is some limited evidence that you must be gay celibate AND remain closeted about your identity to remain in scouting. The Ryan Andresen case from last fall comes to mind. The reason I say this is "limited" evidence is that I have no way of knowing all the facts. But the several articles I read on the case indicated that his scoutmaster refused to sign off on his Eagle aware because Ryan had "come out".

Again, this is limited data but ought to be considered.

[Scott Lloyd]

Because it is local news? What channel?

http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile2/55782402-218/scouts-church-national-gay.html.csp

From the Wikipedia entry on Scouting:

The LDS Church is the largest single sponsor of Scouting units with over 30,000 units nationwide, which comprise about 13% of BSA's youth members.

It's more than obvious Tacenda missed some crucial context when she got the impression news reports were saying 99 percent of all Scout units are LDS.

[CV75]

I think his point was if one lives a normal sexual life that involves a partner it is very hard for someone not to become aware of in some way one's sexual orientation even if one doesn't make a point of announcing it. Thus homosexuals may have no intention of making their sexual orientation a 'talking point' but still be exposed simply due to the natural discussions of every day life between friends and acquaintances.

Yes, and this is obviously the rub: a practicing homosexual belonging to an organization that does not condone for its members a sexual life that involves unmarried partners as a core value, since openness in the natural discussions of every day life between friends and acquaintances the conflicting value gets promoted. All people need tolerance, but not everyone needs conflicting values imposed on their mission-oriented sponsoring / chartering organization. There is a good talk about tolerance by Elder Oaks in this or last month's Ensign. Of course if the BSA passes the proposal, it won't be a conflicting value anymore.

Now my comments do not extend outside the organization: families of any kind should be kind, civil, and tolerant of their neighbors since all law-abiding citizens have a right to live wherever they choose and are able to, regardless of their personal values.

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree that one can oppose the proposed change (on the grounds that it fails to distinguish between orientation and behavior) and not be ignoring the counsel of the church.

However, I am not sure about your second assertion. While it seems correct that the BSA does not ask, there is some limited evidence that you must be gay celibate AND remain closeted about your identity to remain in scouting. The Ryan Andresen case from last fall comes to mind. The reason I say this is "limited" evidence is that I have no way of knowing all the facts. But the several articles I read on the case indicated that his scoutmaster refused to sign off on his Eagle aware because Ryan had "come out".

Again, this is limited data but ought to be considered.

I suppose it's a matter of how one interprets the phrasing "open or avowed" (the terminology used in the current BSA policy regarding homosexuality.) Does that mean practicing one's homosexuality or merely admitting to having same-gender attraction? Does it mean advocacy or mere candor?

I can envision the Church perhaps acquiescing to a clarification of language in the existing policy.

[CV75]

If you follow the counsel of the church, we should be inclusive to any gay member willing to be celibate.

This is great, and has been the practice for quite some time, I understand. As far as the Church and other faith-based charter organizations are concerned, I think the proposal opens the door for sexually active gay members, a problem which I addressed above. How would anyone know that anyone is sexually active outside of marriage? It doesn't matter -- that's the problem in an adult-mentored youth program where a core value is chaste, traditional marriage relationships. Faith-based charter organizations do not want to send a message to their youth that conflicting values are OK.

[Saints Alive]

Under the status quo, Scouting does not inquire into the sexual proclivities of its it's members or leaders. That means that under the current system, a gay but celibate individual already can be involved in Scouting. There is no need for a change in policy to accommodate that.

Kinda makes me wonder if they actually would kick out someone know to have SSA but that never has or currently doesn't act on it and/or doesn't identify as gay?

[Tacenda]

I don't think you understood the report correctly. The Great Salt Lake Council, which was leading the grass roots effort to delay the vote on the proposal, is 99 percent composed of LDS units, but that is definitely not the case for the entire BSA organization.

I think you must have tuned in to the reports late or somehow missed the context of what you were reading/viewing/hearing.

I did, thanks for verifying for me!

[Calm]

Kinda makes me wonder if they actually would kick out someone know to have SSA but that never has or currently doesn't act on it and/or doesn't identify as gay?

According to Rex Goode, who was linked to in one of these threads, he has not engaged in homosexual sex since before he was 16, over forty years and has since married in the temple and been faithful to his wife and yet he is not allowed to participate in Scouts even though his own church leaders have asked him to.

From reading his blog, it appears he has been open about his SSA in order to help others live according to gospel principles, but being public about it has come back to haunt him with regards to Scouts.

[rockpond]

I suppose it's a matter of how one interprets the phrasing "open or avowed" (the terminology used in the current BSA policy regarding homosexuality.) Does that mean practicing one's homosexuality or merely admitting to having same-gender attraction? Does it mean advocacy or mere candor?

I can envision the Church perhaps acquiescing to a clarification of language in the existing policy.

Yes, totally agree. The "open or avowed" lacks clarity. I interpret open as just someone who is "out of the closet". Whereas avowed could sound like something more... almost advocating.

If nothing else, the BSA could shed some light on how they intended for their existing policy to be implemented.

[california boy]

Again, I categorically reject the notion that one cannot oppose the proposed change without ignoring or rejecting the counsel of the Church.

Under the status quo, Scouting does not inquire into the sexual proclivities of its it's members or leaders. That means that under the current system, a gay but celibate individual already can be involved in Scouting. There is no need for a change in policy to accommodate that.

To say that the Church is the entity that is pushing for the change strikes me as outlandish. That, as much as anything else, is indulging in the speculation that yesterday's statement from the Church cautioned against.

Is all you have to be is gay to be kicked out of scouting. The BSA does NOT curently have a policy that if you are a celibate gay person you can be in scouting. Their policy is strictly if you are gay, you can not be in their program. At no time has BSA stated that celibacy is the determining factor. If you are gay and a member of the church, do you really think that the church should start a program where they encourage a youth to not talk about this issue in their lives? Should a youth not go to anyone in the church to receive help in dealing with this problem until when, after they are 18?

[ERayR]

I've attended scout camps where I live, where female scout leaders are present. It doesn't fit well. As scouting expands in its camps to be more "inclusive" and dilutes the needs of the majority of boys in the name of that "inclusiveness", it's going to drive those with high standards away.

I've already seen other things practiced by those who have snuck into scouting who want to propagandize their agendas to young boys. These take the form of both words and actions, and as they become more prevalent at camps, the church should cease participating.

In an attempt to be all things to all people they will soon become nothing to everybody.

[The Nehor]

At least it leaves an out. If I did not want to tie knots or work onyet another badge all I would have to do is claim to be gay.

[gkearney]

This whole spectical is starting to make some in the international scouting community question the wisdom of holding the 2019 world jamboree in the United States. There is a worry that the BSA might fall apart into two or more groups each claiming to be the sole national scouting organization a situation that the WOSM would have a very hard time addressing.

[Saints Alive]

In an attempt to be all things to all people they will soon become nothing to everybody.

I'm not sure being a Boy Scout means much to anyone anymore. At one time being a Eagle Scout really meant something, now I'm not sure it has meaning to anyone outside of scouting.

[Tacenda]

Do they still have someone bringing in an eagle to the Eagle Scout Award ceremony anymore? It use to be common in my area.

[Calm]

I'm not sure being a Boy Scout means much to anyone anymore. At one time being a Eagle Scout really meant something, now I'm not sure it has meaning to anyone outside of scouting.

The military seems to regard it as having value.

[Saints Alive]

Do they still have someone bringing in an eagle to the Eagle Scout Award ceremony anymore? It use to be common in my area.

There is no set ceremony so some people might, I have personally never seen that version before.

[Calm]

Do they still have someone bringing in an eagle to the Eagle Scout Award ceremony anymore? It use to be common in my area.

An actual eagle? I would think that would be very unusual and could only take place where someone made a hobby of it (falconer for example).

[Mark Beesley]

If the Church is serious, (and I assume it is) about its outreach to LDS member who identify with SSA, as portrayed on the mormonsandgays.org website, then it seems to be a no-brainer that the Church would support a BSA policy that would embrace all boys into the program and use the resources of that program to teach ALL of them skills that will help keep them chaste. That would probably include taking advantage of the experience of men who identify with SSA to help boys understand that they can be upright Latter-day Saints and successful scouts even if their sexual orientation is not like everyone else's. Any other approach by the Church may cause its stated position to be viewed with some level of cynicism.