Desnews: 33 Scout Councils Ask Bsa To Delay Decision

[rockpond]

As well they should, all things being equal and appropriate for an adult-mentored youth program. But my issue more fundamental than that—why is an adult’s (or youth’s) sexual preference at all relevant to an adult-mentored youth program? This is how I understand the Church to operate its scout units; behavior, not orientation, determines eligibility to participate. On the other hand, if someone expresses that his/her orientation is so relevant as to make an issue of asserting it as part of his/her identity within the youth program, I think that is a warning sign for potential trouble.

I agree... Someone asserting that their sexual orientation is relevant to participation in a youth program is odd.

But what you are putting forward in this discussion is a strawman. The policy change allows for homosexuals, who have chosen not to hide their orientation, be permitted into the program. Going to one's chartered organization representative (be that a bishop or someone else) and insisting that your sexual orientation be intentionally identified to the youth in the program is quite different than simply being "out of the closet" in your personal life.

[DavidB]

This is the methodology being used by those who want us to embrace the gay lifestyle; treat it as normal, and demonize as irrational anyone who expresses concern about this social experiment.

Here is something for you to think about.

Does the Church sponsor Scouting in countries where that National Scouting program permits gay scouts.

Does the Church sponsor/charter troops which attend Wiles Jamborees? The Church has a webpage dedicated to the Church involvement with World Jamboree 22.

Does the Church accept and hold in good standing members who identify as otherwise gay who are living by Church standards?

Can you provide a intelligent viable reason or reasons why BSA should continue to exclude gay scouts.

[rockpond]

I'm very careful to distinguish between SSA and gay lifestyles. You should be too.

Given the emphasis on faith and morality that the BSA (currently) espouses, they would have to jettison part of the Scout Oath were they to allow active, practicing gays to participate. I see nothing in what is being considered that addresses that distinction, hence the concern about this experiment.

Committed gay relationships are not universally rejected by all Judeo-Christian denominations. Like many parts of the scout experience, "morally straight" is left to the chartered organization to define and teach to the youth in their troop.

[jwhitlock]

Here is something for you to think about.

Does the Church sponsor Scouting in countries where that National Scouting program permits gay scouts.

Does the Church sponsor/charter troops which attend Wiles Jamborees? The Church has a webpage dedicated to the Church involvement with World Jamboree 22.

Does the Church accept and hold in good standing members who identify as otherwise gay who are living by Church standards?

Can you provide a intelligent viable reason or reasons why BSA should continue to exclude gay scouts.

Perhaps, instead, you can explain why the church should embrace gay lifestyles.

[DavidB]

I'm very careful to distinguish between SSA and gay lifestyles. You should be too.

Given the emphasis on faith and morality that the BSA (currently) espouses, they would have to jettison part of the Scout Oath were they to allow active, practicing gays to participate. I see nothing in what is being considered that addresses that distinction, hence the concern about this experiment.

Do you mean this part

. . . and morally straight.

To be a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.

[rockpond]

I do not agree with coed programs, nor do I agree with allowing female scout leaders. With the disintegration of the family, young men need strong father figures to give them guidance, which is part of the purpose of scouting. Inasmuch as these kinds of things dilute that purpose of scouting, I will oppose them.

I'm not particularly fond of coed programs either. I really like our LDS approach to scouting. But the issue at hand is your claim that we would be marginalized by not allowing active gays (for lack of a better term) in our troops. You suggested that it would effectively cut us off from public events.

I disagree with that claim of marginalization based on the fact that we've always excluded young women and female leaders from our Troops and I don't feel that has caused us to be marginalized or cut off from public events.

[DavidB]

Perhaps, instead, you can explain why the church should embrace gay lifestyles.

Strawman of the worst kind.

I counter your claims and your retort is a strawman.

CFR that I have advanced the Church should embrace gay lifestyles. You do realize the Church embraces gay and straight who live the standards of the Gospel.

[jwhitlock]

Committed gay relationships are not universally rejected by all Judeo-Christian denominations. Like many parts of the scout experience, "morally straight" is left to the chartered organization to define and teach to the youth in their troop.

And again, I'll make the point that the proposed BSA policy specifically goes over the line and eliminates any opposition to gay lifestyles. When you cease to oppose something, you embrace it instead.

As I mentioned, I find that this dilutes one of the major purposes of scouting, which is to provide strong male role models. Young men don't need more confusion in their lives; they need appropriate moral guidance, something that is becoming increasingly lacking.

[jwhitlock]

Strawman of the worst kind.

I counter your claims and your retort is a strawman.

CFR that I have advanced the Church should embrace gay lifestyles. You do realize the Church embraces gay and straight who live the standards of the Gospel.

You continue to tap dance around the subject. You have failed to differentiate between practicing gays and those with SSA who choose not to act upon it, when it comes to your support of BSA policy allowing gays.

[jwhitlock]

I'm not particularly fond of coed programs either. I really like our LDS approach to scouting. But the issue at hand is your claim that we would be marginalized by not allowing active gays (for lack of a better term) in our troops. You suggested that it would effectively cut us off from public events.

I disagree with that claim of marginalization based on the fact that we've always excluded young women and female leaders from our Troops and I don't feel that has caused us to be marginalized or cut off from public events.

I've attended scout camps where I live, where female scout leaders are present. It doesn't fit well. As scouting expands in its camps to be more "inclusive" and dilutes the needs of the majority of boys in the name of that "inclusiveness", it's going to drive those with high standards away.

I've already seen other things practiced by those who have snuck into scouting who want to propagandize their agendas to young boys. These take the form of both words and actions, and as they become more prevalent at camps, the church should cease participating.

[rockpond]

And again, I'll make the point that the proposed BSA policy specifically goes over the line and eliminates any opposition to gay lifestyles. When you cease to oppose something, you embrace it instead.

As I mentioned, I find that this dilutes one of the major purposes of scouting, which is to provide strong male role models. Young men don't need more confusion in their lives; they need appropriate moral guidance, something that is becoming increasingly lacking.

Then again, I'll make the point that not every Judeo-Christian denomination universally condemns committed gay relationships. The BSA is allowing chartered organizations to define "morally straight" for their own units. As has been done for quite some time now.

You retain the right to participate (and have your sons participate) in a troop which shares in your same values. And I think that I can safely presume that our LDS troops will stick with those values.

[DavidB]

You continue to tap dance around the subject. You have failed to differentiate between practicing gays and those with SSA who choose not to act upon it, when it comes to your support of BSA policy allowing gays.

Continue with your strawman. I have twice put forth "living gospel standards" and I have put forth that each unit can decide its own policy. You need to continue your strawman to avoid addressing the counter claims to your insupportable statements.

[DavidB]

It is worth noting again, that the Venture program is coed and allows for females leaders. The Church supports the Venture program, though I do not know of any LDS Venture Crew that is coed or has a female leader.

[Daniel2]

The following article is from August 2012, but I think it's worth remembering that at that time (during election season), the world's most high-profile Mormon (and Presidential candidate) openly supported gays in scouting:

Mitt Romney, President Obama affirm support for gay Boy Scout leaders

Compiled by Eric Schulzke, Deseret News

Published: Thursday, Aug. 9 2012 1:26 p.m. MDT

In this Thursday, Aug. 2, 2012 photo, Dr. Robert Wise holds his Eagle Scout medal in the Chicago suburb of Oakbrook Terrace, Ill. Wise, 59, is among several dozen former Eagle Scouts who are relinquishing their medals following the July 17, 2012 announcement that the Boy Scouts of America, after a confidential two-year review, was sticking with the divisive, long-standing policy of excluding openly gay youth and adults as members and leaders. "I can no longer maintain any connection to an organization which actively promotes such a bigoted and misguided policy," he wrote to Scout headquarters in Texas. "To that end, I am interested in removing all evidence that I was ever a Scout."

M. Spencer Green, Associated Press

In the wake of last week's Chick-fil-A flare up, which both candidates overtly avoided, both Mitt Romney and President Barack Obama this week affirmed their long-standing support for integrating gays into the Boy Scouts.

In July, the Boy Scouts of America reaffirmed its longstanding prohibition on gay members or youth leaders.

"The vast majority of the parents of youth we serve value their right to address issues of same-sex orientation within their family, with spiritual advisers and at the appropriate time and in the right setting," Boy Scouts CEO Bob Mazzuca told the AP at the time. "We fully understand that no single policy will accommodate the many diverse views among our membership or society."

Last week, Romney spokeswoman Andrea Saul told the AP that Romney still held to his 1994 position, when he said, “I support the right of the Boy Scouts of America to decide what it wants to do on that issue. I feel that all people should be able to participate in the Boy Scouts regardless of their sexual orientation,” according to the New York Daily News.

On Wednesday, the Obama administration issued an email to the AP, the Christian Science Monitor reported. "The president believes the Boy Scouts is a valuable organization that has helped educate and build character in American boys for more than a century," the White House statement said. "He also opposes discrimination in all forms, and as such opposes this policy that discriminates on basis of sexual orientation."

The reaffirmed position by the national organization comes 12 years after the U.S. Surpreme Court ruled 5-4 that the organization was entitled to maintain the ban under the freedom of association and speech clauses in the First Amendment.

Eric Schulzke writes on national politics for the Deseret News. He can be contacted at eschulzke@desnews.com.

Strange that Mitt Romney's endorsement of gays in scouting at the time didn't seem to generate the kind of criticism or backlash that's going on this month.

Of course, Mr. Romney doesn't officially speak for the LDS church any more than the Greater Salt Lake Boy Scouts do--which is exactly my point. If the LDS church wanted to make an official pronouncement on it, I'm sure that would be in their power, and then that would specify their position. Until they do, I think it's wise not to jump to conclusions. After all, the church's website mormonsandgays.com clearly states that many in the general membership need some adjustment on their approach/attitudes of their gay brothers and sisters.

Daniel2

[gkearney]

From way off in Australia we watch this spectacle taking place with in U.S. scouting with a bit of morbid curiosity. LDS Church sponsored scouting, for the most part ended in Australia over 25 years ago. Its demise had nothing to do with the "two Gs", girls and gays however. Today LDS youth both boys and girls, we are now coed across all the scouting programs, take part in scouting through community based groups as a rule. A few, less than 5, LDS sponsored groups hold on for dear life.

What we have a difficult time here understanding is how and when the BSA ever thought it would be a good idea to have this rule about homosexual members to start with. I think it is clear that the founders of the Boy Scouts of America never likely considered the matter. It therefor also seems clear that the BSA started this policy sometime later. I would expect in the 1970's. Who ever dreamed up the notion of asking about sexual preferences did the BSA and scouting in the U.S. a disservice.

Scouts Australia has never asked anyone about their sexual preferences and I have never heard of any other national scouting organisation doing so. Indeed asking a youth such a question would likely not only get you kicked out of scouting here it would also likely result in your arrest for sexual harassment of a child.

Scouts Australia, like Scouts Canada and most other national scouting organisations world wide have long known how to handle coed events including camping. This includes scouting in some very conservative Islamic nations. We set standards for our youth and adults, We expect standards to be followed by everyone male and female, gay or straight. If not we deal with matter, if serious we call the police. In Scouts Australia we teach citizenship, leadership and self reliance. We don't teach about sex! That is left to the h ome.

[rockpond]

Scouts Australia has never asked anyone about their sexual preferences and I have never heard of any other national scouting organisation doing so. Indeed asking a youth such a question would likely not only get you kicked out of scouting here it would also likely result in your arrest for sexual harassment of a child.

I appreciate you offering an international perspective on this. Thanks.

For the record, I'm not aware of the BSA ever asking anyone about their sexual preference/orientation. It definitely does not appear on the registration form for adults or youth. I tend to think that in practicality, the BSA policy has been more of a "don't ask, don't tell" type situation.

[Saints Alive]

If the LDS church wanted to make an official pronouncement on it, I'm sure that would be in their power, and then that would specify their position. Until they do, I think it's wise not to jump to conclusions.

Daniel2

Why would the Church make a statement before a change is made? If the church supports the change and makes the announcement before the change is made it risks alienating all the members who dont support the change. If it makes a statement that it doesn't support the change it alienates all those members who do support the change. I imagine if a change does occur the church will be relatively silent unless it decides to leave scouts.

I appreciate you offering an international perspective on this. Thanks.

For the record, I'm not aware of the BSA ever asking anyone about their sexual preference/orientation. It definitely does not appear on the registration form for adults or youth. I tend to think that in practicality, the BSA policy has been more of a "don't ask, don't tell" type situation.

I believe the official policy is that open gays are not allowed. So as long as you keep it in the closet (i.e. don't ask, don't tell) you will not be kicked out.

[CV75]

It may become relevant when chastity is being taught....how to deal with different temptations and expectations. A young man with homosexual feelings could probably use an example of chasteness to let him know it is not the insurmountable problem that is sometimes displayed in our culture.

That is an ancillary benefit that I imagine is realized under the current Church management of scouting. If the adult leader is already well-integrated into the charter organization's structure, everyone else is aware of his being approved to serve in scouting.

If this is an example of how one individual's unique experience can help another, it needn't be programmed or asserted for the general group membership (BSA doesn't have a special focus / merit badge on chastity). Also, any adult-youth discussion on this (or any other topic) would have to involve more than one adult for youth protection purposes, and would more appropriately be carried out apart from the scouting program.

I'm not debating against the proposal, but am expressing appreciation for the merits of orientation-neutral behavior (including counseling the youth) in adult-youth interactions in the troops.

[rockpond]

Why would the Church make a statement before a change is made? If the church supports the change and makes the announcement before the change is made it risks alienating all the members who dont support the change. If it makes a statement that it doesn't support the change it alienates all those members who do support the change. I imagine if a change does occur the church will be relatively silent unless it decides to leave scouts.

I concur. The church should have significant influence within the BSA (we have more units than any other chartering organization + our FoS support). But it seems more the style of church leadership to use that influence in private meetings with BSA officials rather than by making press releases for public consumption.

[CV75]

But what you are putting forward in this discussion is a strawman. The policy change allows for homosexuals, who have chosen not to hide their orientation, be permitted into the program. Going to one's chartered organization representative (be that a bishop or someone else) and insisting that your sexual orientation be intentionally identified to the youth in the program is quite different than simply being "out of the closet" in your personal life.

As explained above, my recent comments aren't to express opposition to the proposal, but what I see as a more fundamental issue. These thoughts aren't presented as strawmen but to highlight a separate but related issue--that adults' sexual orientation is even addressed in a program designed for youth. This would actually be part of questioning why the BSA had to use the ban, rather than a stronger emphasis on morality, in the first place. But the Church took care of this, and I think a universal value for chastity is most appropriate, without reference to sexuality. Maybe this was a given in earlier generations.

[rockpond]

As explained above, my recent comments aren't to express opposition to the proposal, but what I see as a more fundamental issue. These thoughts aren't presented as strawmen but to highlight a separate but related issue--that adults' sexual orientation is even addressed in a program designed for youth. This would actually be part of questioning why the BSA had to use the ban, rather than a stronger emphasis on morality, in the first place. But the Church took care of this, and I think a universal value for chastity is most appropriate, without reference to sexuality. Maybe this was a given in earlier generations.

I apologize for having missed your earlier explanation. I fully agree with what you have stated above.

[semlogo]

As well they should, all things being equal and appropriate for an adult-mentored youth program. But my issue more fundamental than that—why is an adult’s (or youth’s) sexual preference at all relevant to an adult-mentored youth program? This is how I understand the Church to operate its scout units; behavior, not orientation, determines eligibility to participate. On the other hand, if someone expresses that his/her orientation is so relevant as to make an issue of asserting it as part of his/her identity within the youth program, I think that is a warning sign for potential trouble.

Ask the BSA. They're the ones who have made sexual orientation an issue.

The issue here isn't scout masters proclaiming their orientation to the kids. The issue is the BSA banning them from service in the first place.

[Daniel2]

Why would the Church make a statement before a change is made? If the church supports the change and makes the announcement before the change is made it risks alienating all the members who dont support the change. If it makes a statement that it doesn't support the change it alienates all those members who do support the change. I imagine if a change does occur the church will be relatively silent unless it decides to leave scouts.

I agree with everything you wrote above. My previous post was in response to several comments that seem to imply that the Greater Salt Lake BSA's statement likely reflects the church's approach--which may be, but isn't necessarily, a given.

Daniel2

[Nofear]

Just got this email from our area's District Executive:

For 103 years, the Boy Scouts of America has been a part of the fabric of this nation, providing it’s youth program of character development and values-based leadership training. In the past two weeks, Scouting has received an outpouring of feedback from the American public. It reinforces how deeply people care about Scouting and how passionate they are about the organization.

After careful consideration and extensive dialogue within the Scouting family, along with comments from those outside the organization, the volunteer officers of the Boy Scouts of America’s National Executive Board concluded that due to the complexity of this issue, the organization needs time for a more deliberate review of its membership policy.

To that end, the National Executive Board directed its committees to further engage representatives of Scouting’s membership and listen to their perspectives and concerns. This will assist the officers’ work on a resolution on membership standards. The approximately 1,400 voting members of the National Council will take action on the resolution at the National Annual Meeting in May 2013.

To provide feedback please visit:

Should you receive inquiries, there are three ways to submit feedback:

• Email Feedback@Scouting.org
  
• Visit the contact page on Scouting.org at www.scouting.org/ContactUs
  
• Or Call 972-580-2000
  

Emphasis added.

[CV75]

Ask the BSA. They're the ones who have made sexual orientation an issue.

I wasn’t asking you or the BSA—it was a rhetorical question, and I think I have an answer.

The issue here isn't scout masters proclaiming their orientation to the kids. The issue is the BSA banning them from service in the first place.

Technically, the issue is neither of these but the proposal. But the BSA banned homosexuals in the first place because that was the moral norm 100+ years ago, and I’m sure it carried at that time the connotation that they were practicing homosexuals. At any rate, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of its right to do so, so the proposal is being offered despite the organization’s right not to allow it. Also, there seems to be a contingent that is proclaiming or at least working toward proclaiming their orientation to the kids (this is what I take from one of the Executive Board members’ comments, which I posted earlier -- #17) which is to be expected to be part of a broader equal rights effort.