What Do People Considering Leaving The Church Have To Fear?

[rodheadlee]

I'm sorry that you have that view of "mental efforts". Social/relational/emotional aspects are what are weighted when we reason. Reason moves these aspects around to see what we really want or value emotionally or socially. That there are several aspects to consider when taking a particular decision does not mean one isn't going to be using one's mental efforts. It is definitely a mistake to not take emotions and social/relational aspects to one's decisions and never here have I been ignoring them when I talk about "metal efforts" or "reason". It isn't my fault some here have such a caricature of ideas like "mental", "intellect", or "reason".

What equilibrium? Upset how? Fear of what will result?

Well, in that respect an honest disbeliever has little to worry as compared to the believer since this applies to all.

OK, so we would be leaving quite a bit, in which case you have to say what and provide reasons.

John 3:

18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 and this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20: or everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21: but he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be manifest, that they are wrought in God

[CV75]

Because this doesn't change anything. Think about it.

So there are dangers in whatever position you might be in. I don't see the relevance of saying that. We are all in this fallen state.

Take the ones I offered you think are incoherent. If you have a problem with them, I want to know.

No, CV, I'm asking about particular dangers to us disbelievers.

You must be running out of steam--these non-responsive non-responses are non-respondable.

[EllenMaksoud]

I was listening to the podcast posted on the "John Dehlin And Faith Reconstruction" thread and thought, what do people facing faith crises have to fear?

If God is as good as he is said to be, why the fear of leaving the Church or going to where one's best mental efforts take you? If God is good, what do I have to fear if I truly did what I carefully thought was the best? Maybe this idea of God is wrong but I can't imagine a good God that will punish someone who honestly did what they saw as the more honest and better approach to their lives and beliefs, even if that meant disobeying God's commands.

In this country, I don't suppose leaving the church is dramatically threatening. I have run into a few people who have left and they invariably are quite angry about issues that I do not comprehend. I wish them well, and I personally do not believe that Heavenly Father is going to give them a good thumpin. I know some people who went inactve and then came back when the matters became resolved in their own hearts.

The church was very protective of me when I left Islam, but in this country, I don't really see much danger. I can shoot better than the extremists and we have a police force dedicated to whacking criminals.

[Alvino]

Missing the blessing reserved for the believers.

But that may or may not be such a great deal.

For example, some people here expressed the belief that even if in this life an honest disbeliever were to die an honest disbeliever and had missed the blessings of being LDS, in the next life she'll have every chance to progress as much as she sees fit. In this life there doesn't seem to be many things we are missing on, to tell you the truth, so it could end up not really making any good difference whether we miss the blessings reserved for believers here.

what do you think?

Edited February 11, 2013 by Alvino

[ERayR]

But that may or may not be such a great deal.

For example, some people here expressed the belief that even if in this life an honest disbeliever were to die an honest disbeliever and had missed the blessings of being LDS, in the next life she'll have every chance to progress as much as she sees fit. In this life there doesn't seem to be many things we are missing on, to tell you the truth, so it could end up not really making any good difference whether we miss the blessings reserved for believers here.

what do you think?

To what I understand is your original premise. It may not be your fault you were uninformed but you are responsible for what you do with the information once you do receive it.

[Alvino]

To what I understand is your original premise.

No, I was saying that under several possible scenarios (and I described them) leaving the Church as an honest disbeliever justice has nothing on you, or that it would be wrong to punish you at all for leaving the church.

It may not be your fault you were uninformed but you are responsible for what you do with the information once you do receive it.

what information do you have in mind here? Clearly, it isn't sufficient to be responsible just having heard Mormons believe so-and-so, right?

Edited February 11, 2013 by Alvino

[Hamba Tuhan]

Prayers don't work, there are no miracles, etc.

Unless you're using a completely unfamiliar definition of 'work', I have no idea what you're talking about here. Prayer absolutely works, and miracles abound. I am a firsthand witness to both of those facts. How have you missed out on all this? No wonder you've left ... and think you aren't missing much by having done so.

Or he could tell me the relevant facts either about the world or his nature so that I will not think (as I do now) that this world is almost completely not what I could reasonably expect if God existed.

Another fascinating observation on your part. I have been repeatedly struck as I've aged how perfectly God has designed the world and the mortal experience to accomplish His purposes as revealed clearly in the scriptures we have available to us in the latter days. What exactly do you find incompatible with the 'God of "Mormonism"'?

How in the world can you remember what you posted almost a year ago?

Because I don't smoke pot?

If I were to "see God while on my way home", I would think I'm losing my mind.

Of course you would.

No sudden experience while I'm alone, no getting worked up, no dreams. Those won't work.

For me they 'work' to a certain extent: they invite me to action. It's in the follow-up to that action, however, that one finds practical reality. I've taught my Young Men repeatedly that, if I'd spent the entire night conversing with an angel, I would have concluded the next morning that it had all been a dream. Why wouldn't one? Everything changes, though, when one trusts the experience enough to go to the hill, find what looks like a familiar rock, pry it up, and have a look underneath. If there are golden plates inside, then it wasn't a dream. In every single instance that I've had the faith/courage to go to the various hills I've been shown, there have always been golden plates awaiting me. Every single time. But one actually has to trust the experience enough to go look. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[The Nehor]

This is long and I did not read it. Still the answer is:

Fear itself.

[Hamba Tuhan]

In this life there doesn't seem to be many things we are missing on, to tell you the truth, so it could end up not really making any good difference whether we miss the blessings reserved for believers here.

what do you think?

Growing up, our nearest neighbour was an evangelical atheist who had spent his entire life trying to get first my grandfather and then my father to see reason and leave their foolish religious ways. By the time I was born, he was an elderly man whose unmarried daughter lived with and took care of him. He was also cantankerous, and I was grateful for the sheep paddock that separated our houses. In my childish mind, I can remember thinking how just it would be someday that he would die and get his comeuppance once he realised there really was a spirit world ... and a God.

One Saturday morning an ambulance came to his house, and later a body came out on a covered stretcher. We all assumed this man had died, so my dad went over to pay his condolences to the daughter. In his absence, I was thinking with some pleasure about what a shock this mean old man was having just about then. We all got a shock when my father returned: the daughter had died during the night. I was actually -- and this is shameful to admit -- disappointed.

Weeks later the missionaries knocked on his door, something that happened quite regularly in our small town. Our neighbour in the past had always delighted in inviting the poor Elders in so that he could attack their irrational and foolish hopes. To this day, I'm not sure what went 'wrong' on this particular day, but one of them apparently said the right thing, though I suspect that being left all alone had maybe helped soften this man's heart a little. Anyway, he actually started listening to the missionaries, and soon we were all shocked to see our neighbour one Sunday morning sitting on the front row of our little chapel. I actually didn't want him to be there at first, but I learnt better and have since repented many times over.

A few months later this man was baptised. He was somewhere in his 80s at this point, and he became one of our regular testimony sharers each Fast Sunday from that point forward. I will forever remember listening to his heartfelt words each month, which didn't differ much, to be honest. He often spoke of the parable of the labourers and how grateful he was that the Lord had seen fit to rescue him 'at the eleventh hour'. 'But oh the blessings that could have been mine during this life!' he used to say over and over again, referring to the blessings that he was then enjoying but had spent most of his life denying. For what it's worth, I strongly suspect this man would disagree with your assessment quoted above.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[glitterNgold]

...what do people facing faith crises have to fear?

A lot.

Do you want your entire extended family to be uncomfortable around you? Do you want some of your more orthodox family members to stop talking to you? Do you want you and your spouse to not be in total agreement on religion for the first time in your married life? Do you want to face your lifelong friends that previously looked at you as an example of those with strong testimonies? It is NOT easy. It is scary and it hurts and many days I wonder if it was even worth leaving, given all the pain.

[Ahab]

A lot.

Do you want your entire extended family to be uncomfortable around you? Do you want some of your more orthodox family members to stop talking to you? Do you want you and your spouse to not be in total agreement on religion for the first time in your married life? Do you want to face your lifelong friends that previously looked at you as an example of those with strong testimonies? It is NOT easy. It is scary and it hurts and many days I wonder if it was even worth leaving, given all the pain.

Heh, that's what I experienced after I joined the Church. I'm the black sheep of my family, as a member.

[glitterNgold]

Heh, that's what I experienced after I joined the Church. I'm the black sheep of my family, as a member.

Yeah, goes both ways.

[Calm]

Do you want some of your more orthodox family members to stop talking to you?

It is not orthodoxy that would cause family members to stop talking to a loved one, but something quite, quite different...perhaps pride or fear.

[glitterNgold]

It is not orthodoxy that would cause family members to stop talking to a loved one, but something quite, quite different...perhaps pride or fear.

The ones that are more strict in their adherence to the gospel, I should say. Maybe it is just coincidence that these were also the ones not comfortable talking to us. Maybe when they get back from their second mission, it will be better...

[Calm]

The ones that are more strict in their adherence to the gospel, I should say. Maybe it is just coincidence that these were also the ones not comfortable talking to us. Maybe when they get back from their second mission, it will be better...

I know plenty of strict LDS that are willing to talk to those with doubts or who leave the church. I have seen it in my extended family and in other families. I have seen some very 'liberal' family members refuse to interact with others equally liberal or more conservative. I would suggest that the refusal to speak with family members is about family dynamics...possibly rigidity in such, possibly something else, likely a combination, not about church dynamics. The only reason why I am pointing this out is because if people respond to a family dynamic as if it is a result of a church dynamic, it is unlikely effective healing will take place. Being realistic about what is actually causing an issue is the first step towards resolving it. Edited February 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[TomHagen]

I've only read the first page, but I will answer the original question:

The fear has nothing to do with God. At least not for me. The only God I can possibly believe in is the Mormon theology of an infinitely and perfectly loving parent. I believe (note the "I") that such a god would understand and empathize with a child who is just trying to understand something and has genuine issues with some factual inconsistencies, or even wishes to trod another path. I don't believe in a "one true way" because there's just too much evidence screaming that the "Mormon" way is true in the sense that it claims to be. So I have no fear of a wrathful or vengeful god smiting me down because I had the audacity to say "wait a minute....that doesn't make sense to me."

The fear has to do with family relationships. Family members may be - as is true in my case - deeply invested both emotionally and spiritually in LDS culture and expectations, such that my leaving on my own would be hurtful and may even irreparably damage those relationships. Is it worth destroying a marriage or breaking my parents' hearts forever just because I've come to understand that much of what the Church teaches as "truth" is, in fact, untrue? What lifelong cost is one willing to pay for the fleeting satisfaction of decrying Joseph Smith as a conman and adulterer, Brigham Young as a bigot and heretic, the Book of Mormon as a fraud, or the temple ceremony as a mind-numbing morality play?

Not long ago, I belonged squarely in the ranks of many I see on the first page in this thread - the "either get out, or sit down and shut up" group. I believed in toe-ing the line, the infallibility of the brethren, and that the Church's stance is always in line with what is right, and good, and what God plainly wants. But then I took a moment to look a little deeper, and saw that it's just not that simple. The Church is not simply a set of beliefs that one can either ascribe to or ignore. It is an entire culture - especially in the "corridor." It flows through every aspect of life. I wish that stepping away from it was as simple as just changing what I do on Sunday afternoon. It's not.

[Alvino]

A lot.

Do you want your entire extended family to be uncomfortable around you? Do you want some of your more orthodox family members to stop talking to you? Do you want you and your spouse to not be in total agreement on religion for the first time in your married life? Do you want to face your lifelong friends that previously looked at you as an example of those with strong testimonies? It is NOT easy. It is scary and it hurts and many days I wonder if it was even worth leaving, given all the pain.

Though these problems are certainly important, I wasn't talking about social problems here.

[Alvino]

Growing up, our nearest neighbour was an evangelical atheist who had spent his entire life trying to get first my grandfather and then my father to see reason and leave their foolish religious ways. By the time I was born, he was an elderly man whose unmarried daughter lived with and took care of him. He was also cantankerous, and I was grateful for the sheep paddock that separated our houses. In my childish mind, I can remember thinking how just it would be someday that he would die and get his comeuppance once he realised there really was a spirit world ... and a God.

One Saturday morning an ambulance came to his house, and later a body came out on a covered stretcher. We all assumed this man had died, so my dad went over to pay his condolences to the daughter. In his absence, I was thinking with some pleasure about what a shock this mean old man was having just about then. We all got a shock when my father returned: the daughter had died during the night. I was actually -- and this is shameful to admit -- disappointed.

Weeks later the missionaries knocked on his door, something that happened quite regularly in our small town. Our neighbour in the past had always delighted in inviting the poor Elders in so that he could attack their irrational and foolish hopes. To this day, I'm not sure what went 'wrong' on this particular day, but one of them apparently said the right thing, though I suspect that being left all alone had maybe helped soften this man's heart a little. Anyway, he actually started listening to the missionaries, and soon we were all shocked to see our neighbour one Sunday morning sitting on the front row of our little chapel. I actually didn't want him to be there at first, but I learnt better and have since repented many times over.

A few months later this man was baptised. He was somewhere in his 80s at this point, and he became one of our regular testimony sharers each Fast Sunday from that point forward. I will forever remember listening to his heartfelt words each month, which didn't differ much, to be honest. He often spoke of the parable of the labourers and how grateful he was that the Lord had seen fit to rescue him 'at the eleventh hour'. 'But oh the blessings that could have been mine during this life!' he used to say over and over again, referring to the blessings that he was then enjoying but had spent most of his life denying. For what it's worth, I strongly suspect this man would disagree with your assessment quoted above.

I actually find shameful that you would use a story like that of this lonely old man in pain to try to give credence to your gospel. If I knew that man lived in my area I probably would try to invite him to Church myself (though I would not preach things I believed were false) nothing of which would have to do with spiritual blessings.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Alvino

[Vanguard]

I've only read the first page, but I will answer the original question:

The fear has nothing to do with God. At least not for me. The only God I can possibly believe in is the Mormon theology of an infinitely and perfectly loving parent. I believe (note the "I") that such a god would understand and empathize with a child who is just trying to understand something and has genuine issues with some factual inconsistencies, or even wishes to trod another path.

Well said. How could our God cast a blind eye to the fact that one of his children followed their conscience in leaving the church? You see, the one question that needs to be answered on threads like this is - Is it possible to leave the church and remain in good standing with your Creator? This is the "litmus question" because once it's answered then we can logically walk down the many paths presented on this thread to this point. What's the point in arguing with another who does not believe my question is possible? In those cases, we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion as to the nature of God and our relationship to him.

I don't believe in a "one true way" because there's just too much evidence screaming that the "Mormon" way is true in the sense that it claims to be. So I have no fear of a wrathful or vengeful god smiting me down because I had the audacity to say "wait a minute....that doesn't make sense to me."

My belief is that the phrase "Ours is the one true religion" has become an anachronism. I still don't even know completely what that means? Now, I do believe the Mormon faith of which I am an active participant has "more information" as it were into the nature of our life's purpose down here and everything that naturally flows from that claim.

The fear has to do with family relationships. Family members may be - as is true in my case - deeply invested both emotionally and spiritually in LDS culture and expectations, such that my leaving on my own would be hurtful and may even irreparably damage those relationships. Is it worth destroying a marriage or breaking my parents' hearts forever just because I've come to understand that much of what the Church teaches as "truth" is, in fact, untrue? What lifelong cost is one willing to pay for the fleeting satisfaction of decrying Joseph Smith as a conman and adulterer, Brigham Young as a bigot and heretic, the Book of Mormon as a fraud, or the temple ceremony as a mind-numbing morality play?

As long as you stick to your claim that this is your "understanding" of things then I'm ok with that. I might even meet you mid-way by agreeing that Joseph - among many wonderful qualities - was probably also a bit of a scalawag in his own right. But since when can't prophets be a bit of a scalawag? Of course, this goes for the rest of the leaders on down the line. I personally am ok with granting them considerable leeway when we size them up as prophet, seer, and revelator. Remember, they were not necessarily the purest vessel on the earth but rather the best man for the job at that time.

Not long ago, I belonged squarely in the ranks of many I see on the first page in this thread - the "either get out, or sit down and shut up" group. I believed in toe-ing the line, the infallibility of the brethren, and that the Church's stance is always in line with what is right, and good, and what God plainly wants. But then I took a moment to look a little deeper, and saw that it's just not that simple. The Church is not simply a set of beliefs that one can either ascribe to or ignore. It is an entire culture - especially in the "corridor." It flows through every aspect of life. I wish that stepping away from it was as simple as just changing what I do on Sunday afternoon. It's not.

I am sorry you stepped away. Perhaps your profile and mine are simply on opposite sides of the "line" but within arm's reach of each other. I can't at this point in my life give up the beauty I find in my worship of my Mormon God. There is simply too much I would lose in this temporality. I think the time is coming where there will be a more meaningful and on a grander scale conversation of the role the Church plays in our lives. There is still much to be said. And considerable ground that many in the Church would have to cede. Hence, my general reluctance to speak my peace at church gatherings. I simply don't believe the general membership is even ready for such a conversation.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I actually find shameful that you would use a story like that.

Another interesting response from you. For what it's worth, I came to know my neighbour well after his conversion, and he would be very grateful for his story to be shared. He himself tried to share it with everyone he could, including other Church members. I recall him in his public testimonies stating his fear that some of us didn't really understand or appreciate what we had. The greatest regret of his life, I heard him tell my father on many occasions, was that he hadn't come around sooner so that he could have raised his children in the Church; as it was, they completely discounted everything he told them after his conversion.

[BlueDreams]

I believed in toe-ing the line, the infallibility of the brethren, and that the Church's stance is always in line with what is right, and good, and what God plainly wants. But then I took a moment to look a little deeper, and saw that it's just not that simple.

This is mostly an aside....but did you really believe the brethren were infallible, or was this more exaggerated to make the connotative point?

With luv,

BD

[ERayR]

A lot.

Do you want your entire extended family to be uncomfortable around you? Do you want some of your more orthodox family members to stop talking to you?

It would help if they were not continuously bombarded with comments and rants about how stupid they were for continuing to believe in the Church.

[ERayR]

I actually find shameful that you would use a story like that of this lonely old man in pain to try to give credence to your gospel. If I knew that man lived in my area I probably would try to invite him to Church myself (though I would not preach things I believed were false) nothing of which would have to do with spiritual blessings.

What I find shameful is that those who have lost their faith must berate friends and family for not doing the same and then find fault with missionary activity never recognizing their own missionary activity.

[ERayR]

Well said. How could our God cast a blind eye to the fact that one of his children followed their conscience in leaving the church? You see, the one question that needs to be answered on threads like this is - Is it possible to leave the church and remain in good standing with your Creator?

Of course "it possible to leave the church and remain in good standing with your Creator". It is just that all paths do not lead to the same place. God does not want anyone to be unhappy so each chooses his associations beyond the grave.

[Alvino]

What I find shameful is that those who have lost their faith must berate friends and family for not doing the same

I don't do that. If you read what I wrote you noticed I would even invite the old man to church myself as an unbeliever. You did notice that, right?

and then find fault with missionary activity never recognizing their own missionary activity.

Read again. I'm not doing that.