Alvino Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) I was listening to the podcast posted on the "John Dehlin And Faith Reconstruction" thread and thought, what do people facing faith crises have to fear?If God is as good as he is said to be, why the fear of leaving the Church or going to where one's best mental efforts take you? If God is good, what do I have to fear if I truly did what I carefully thought was the best? Maybe this idea of God is wrong but I can't imagine a good God that will punish someone who honestly did what they saw as the more honest and better approach to their lives and beliefs, even if that meant disobeying God's commands. Edited February 3, 2013 by Alvino
Duncan Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 I think the fear is the immediate results of leaving the Church, having to deal with breaking the news, telling friend in the Church you don't want to attend, having to explain why and all that flubbdubbery. My thoughts, but I haven't ever gone through it personally
bluebell Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 I agree with Duncan, i think the fears most people have about leaving the church have to do with the impact it would have on their families, friends, and marriages. 2
thesometimesaint Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Alvino:Logical fallacy of a false dichotomy.
Alvino Posted February 3, 2013 Author Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) I'm happy to say that wasn't my experience at all having been brought up in a place with not that many members. I had to think little in that respect.Is one, then, justified in leaving belief and the Church if one sees fit? Does one have anything to fear in the afterlife? Is there spiritual danger in leaving the Church? Edited February 3, 2013 by Alvino
Alvino Posted February 3, 2013 Author Posted February 3, 2013 Alvino:Logical fallacy of a false dichotomy.We have to show it's false now, don't we?
Alvino Posted February 3, 2013 Author Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) I think the fear is the immediate results of leaving the Church, having to deal with breaking the news, telling friend in the Church you don't want to attend, having to explain why and all that flubbdubbery. My thoughts, but I haven't ever gone through it personallyWhat is wrong with leaving the Church if one saw that as the best course of action? Is there anything wrong with it? What is wrong with stopping to believe in God? Is God OK with it if that's what one saw as the best conclusion to take?Clearly, if leaving the Church is going to devastate your marriage and other less abrupt actions seem more prudent, then by all means don't leave. Putting those practical problems aside, though. Edited February 3, 2013 by Alvino
mfbukowski Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 I was listening to the podcast posted on the "John Dehlin And Faith Reconstruction" thread and thought, what do people facing faith crises have to fear?If God is as good as he is said to be, why the fear of leaving the Church or going to where one's best mental efforts take you? If God is good, what do I have to fear if I truly did what I carefully thought was the best? Maybe this idea of God is wrong but I can't imagine a good God that will punish someone who honestly did what they saw as the more honest and better approach to their lives and beliefs, even if that meant disobeying God's commands.Yep, agreed. That is always why I am telling people- "If you don't believe it, why are you even here?"Vote with your feet and quit complaining about it. 2
mfbukowski Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 What is wrong with leaving the Church if one saw that as the best course of action? Is there anything wrong with it? What is wrong with stopping to believe in God? Is God OK with it if that's what one saw as the best conclusion to take?Is WHO ok with it? Somebody who doesn't exist? Why would you care? 1
Buzzard Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 I'm happy to say that wasn't my experience at all having been brought up in a place with not that many members. I had to think little in that respect.Is one, then, justified in leaving belief and the Church if one sees fit? Does one have anything to fear in the afterlife? Is there spiritual danger in leaving the Church?If one rejects the true and living God, I would think your destination in the afterlife would certainly be up for possible reassignment.
omni Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 Yep, agreed. That is always why I am telling people- "If you don't believe it, why are you even here?"Vote with your feet and quit complaining about it.I think you know it's not quite that simple for most of us. 3
Alvino Posted February 3, 2013 Author Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) Is WHO ok with it? Somebody who doesn't exist? Why would you care?First of all, because I care for others and they might believe in God.If you haven't noticed, I'm speaking more to the hearts of people on the fence than anyone else. Of course I don't believe in God but even if he were to exist I find little reason to worry about it. A powerful God who will punish you at all for having honestly considered the options and saw the best one to disobey is not someone worth praising for a good character in the first place. Edited February 3, 2013 by Alvino
Alvino Posted February 3, 2013 Author Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) If one rejects the true and living God, I would think your destination in the afterlife would certainly be up for possible reassignment.Imagine the following:You give your son the right option when he is faced with a dilemma in life. You give little reasons for why that is the right option and when asked you say little more. Your son takes his time to think and ponder as much as he needs to reach a choice and comes to the conclusion that your option is not the right one and that his honesty and reason tell him to not follow your choice.Do you seriously think it would be just to punish your son for having thought carefully about it and, not out of rebellion but serious worry for truth, not followed the poorly justified option you gave even if he was wrong? Edited February 3, 2013 by Alvino
blackstrap Posted February 3, 2013 Posted February 3, 2013 I think you know it's not quite that simple for most of us. If you have done your research and have come to the conclusion that the Church's truth claims are FALSE, then it behooves you to follow your conscience and leave. You can choose your behavior/action but not the consequences thereof. If you arrive at the other side and find you were in error,then you should have enough integity to deal with those consequences without complaint. The poem " IF " has a bit to say on the matter.
Alvino Posted February 3, 2013 Author Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) If you have done your research and have come to the conclusion that the Church's truth claims are FALSE, then it behooves you to follow your conscience and leave. You can choose your behavior/action but not the consequences thereof. If you arrive at the other side and find you were in error,then you should have enough integity to deal with those consequences without complaint. The poem " IF " has a bit to say on the matter.Right. But we are not talking about some circumstances that just happen to be there. Supposedly, there is a God at the place we are going and that God has some control over it. If the after-life universe just happened to be in such a way that unbelievers suffer some bad consequences for disbelief, than that's another issue and we would say that sucks.The question is whether you think it is correct for God to punish an honest disbeliever or not. Edited February 3, 2013 by Alvino
rpn Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 It isn't God's punishment he has to fear: it is the natural consequences of his leaving. Missing out on conforming his life to His Father's will, missing out on the experiences that were designed to help him return to Him with honor, failing to make and live the covenants, and live the laws on which the blessings he needs and wants are predicated, and thus missing out on those blessings. 2
mfbukowski Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 The question is whether you think it is correct for God to punish an honest disbeliever or not.I think it would be unjust and incidentally that is the Mormon position as well.An "honest disbeliever" would be one who has not received a testimony, for whatever reason, or misinterpreted the light he has received.That is why we do work for the dead. 2
Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 I think it would be unjust and incidentally that is the Mormon position as well.An "honest disbeliever" would be one who has not received a testimony, for whatever reason, or misinterpreted the light he has received.That is why we do work for the dead.No ex-Mormon atheist is an honest disbeliever, then?
Libs Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 What Do People Considering Leaving The Church Have To Fear?All kinds of things, not the least of which is the fact that we might be wrong, in our judgment of the church.
mfbukowski Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 I'm happy to say that wasn't my experience at all having been brought up in a place with not that many members. I had to think little in that respect.Is one, then, justified in leaving belief and the Church if one sees fit? Does one have anything to fear in the afterlife? Is there spiritual danger in leaving the Church?But you are assuming 1- that the church IS "in fact true" AND 2- that you leave it.Isn't it a bit odd for a non-believer to make #1 an assumption in the first place??I mean suppose Evangelicals are right and all non-believers burn forever in hell.Now disbelieving that, if it is correct, carries a bit more risk than dropping, say, for sake of argument, from the celestial to terrestrial kingdom or something like that, which is the worst, probably one might expect in the Mormon cosmology.So I am missing the point here.If you don't believe in God to start out- these issues should be totally irrelevant to you. It's like worrying about what will happen to you in Mordor or if Harry Potter doesn't kill the dragon or whatever (sorry- not a great fan of fiction so I am having trouble coming up with good analogies) 1
Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 All kinds of things, not the least of which is the fact that we might be wrong, in our judgment of the church.And besides the risk of having gotten wrong a piece of information, what's the problem?
mfbukowski Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 No ex-Mormon atheist is an honest disbeliever, then?Huh?How does that follow? Of course there are, I am sure ex-Mo atheists who are totally honest disbelievers.
Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 Huh?How does that follow? It didn't, that's why I asked you. I feared you actually believed that because you responded talking about a group that is clearly not the group I have in mind - you talked about people who never knew about the Church or had a testimony.Of course there are, I am sure ex-Mo atheists who are totally honest disbelievers.Oh, ok. Then we don't disagree, mf.
Libs Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 And besides the risk of having gotten wrong a piece of information, what's the problem?I'm not talking about just a "piece" of information. I think almost everyone, who has ever thought about leaving the church (or has actually left) has, at some point, wondered if they were making the right decision...especially, if they have had any kind of testimony, at all, that the church is true.
Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) But you are assuming 1- that the church IS "in fact true" AND 2- that you leave it.No, I'm assuming the people I'm addressing think there is a fact of the matter. For my part I only assume there is a fact of the matter - and the right side is that the church's core claims aren't true. For if-then statements you don't need to know you have the truth.By the way, since you were talking about people who were not ex-Mormons or ex-believers, then I don't think you answered the question. You said, "I think it would be unjust and incidentally that is the Mormon position as well" with regards to people who never believed but I never asked about them. So, again I ask you, "The question is whether you think it is correct for God to punish an honest disbeliever or not." Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino
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