What Do People Considering Leaving The Church Have To Fear?

[Libs]

Alvino, what is it you're trying to get at?

Are you looking for someone to say that God is okay with someone leaving the church? I think, if you expect active LDS to tell you that, you are probably barking up the wrong tree.

If you ask those who don't believe in the church, you will likely get a different answer.

I'm...inactive. But, I did have all of those reservations, before I left (and still do, at times). My "compromise" (if you could call it that) is that I don't speak against the church. I did, when I first left, but felt very convicted, after a time, to stop. I, honestly, couldn't tell you what the eternal consequences will be, but I hope what GG said, is true, if it happens that the church is true. I would put myself in God's merciful hands, in that case, and repent.

[ERayR]

Let's recapitulate. I asked, "For you, then, if I don't hurt anyone if I leave or stay, can I leave and nothing wrong with it? Is God, according to you, OK with it, too?" to which you responded, "It is fine as long as you understand that whether you believe or not there is eternal consequences to your choices."

You mentioned eternal consequences. Again, supposedly there is a God and where we go to in the afterlife will be a place where that God has control over. Weren't you talking about consequences that will befall in the afterlife, that place where God has a bunch of control over? What I was asking you before was whether such actions on the part of God (punishing or holding back blessings) is just treatment to an honest disbeliever.

Yes it is a just treatment for an honest disbeliever. If you are an honest disbeliever you obviously would not be content nor happy to spend your eternity amongst believers in the presence of a God you didn't believe in. Your "treatment" is to not force you into that misery but to place you in an environment where you are comfortable. You are looking at it as a deprivation to not be in a place where you are uncomfortable. I would think that any rational "honest disbeliever" would look at it as a blessing not to have to associate in a society of believers.

[Alvino]

Alvino, what is it you're trying to get at?

I thought you read the OP.

Are you looking for someone to say that God is okay with someone leaving the church? I think, if you expect active LDS to tell you that, you are probably barking up the wrong tree.

I'm trying to give reasons and convince people of it using them. Called 'discussion' IIRC.

If you ask those who don't believe in the church, you will likely get a different answer.

Right, if I ask someone who believes differently, I will get a different answer.

I'm...inactive. But, I did have all of those reservations, before I left (and still do, at times). My "compromise" (if you could call it that) is that I don't speak against the church. I did, when I first left, but felt very convicted, after a time, to stop. I, honestly, couldn't tell you what the eternal consequences will be, but I hope what GG said, is true, if it happens that the church is true. I would put myself in God's merciful hands, in that case, and repent.

I don't know why you left the Church but, repent of what? If you are an honest disbeliever and using the best tools you had at hand you got convinced the Church wasn't true or it was better to leave it, what is it to repent of? "Sorry for having done the best I could"?

[Alvino]

Yes it is a just treatment for an honest disbeliever.

OK. Why? It is rather easy to see why someone could think it isn't just, I'm sure you would agree. For example, I posted the following to another user:

"Imagine the following:

You give your son the right option when he is faced with a dilemma in life. You give little reasons for why that is the right option and when asked you say little more. Your son takes his time to think and ponder as much as he needs to reach a choice and comes to the conclusion that your option is not the right one and that his honesty and reason tell him to not follow your choice.

Do you seriously think it would be just to punish your son for having thought carefully about it and, not out of rebellion but serious worry for truth, not followed the poorly justified option you gave even if he was wrong?"

If you are an honest disbeliever you obviously would not be content nor happy to spend your eternity amongst believers in the presence of a God you didn't believe in.

That is silly. Obviously at that point to decline going to that place I would know God was real so I would like to be there.

[ERayR]

OK. Why? It is rather easy to see why someone could think it isn't just, I'm sure you would agree. For example, I posted the following to another user:

"Imagine the following:

You give your son the right option when he is faced with a dilemma in life. You give little reasons for why that is the right option and when asked you say little more. Your son takes his time to think and ponder as much as he needs to reach a choice and comes to the conclusion that your option is not the right one and that his honesty and reason tell him to not follow your choice.

Do you seriously think it would be just to punish your son for having thought carefully about it and, not out of rebellion but serious worry for truth, not followed the poorly justified option you gave even if he was wrong?"

That is silly. Obviously at that point to decline going to that place I would know God was real so I would like to be there.

I gave my reasons, you have rejected it, so I am through playing.

[Alvino]

I gave my reasons, you have rejected it, so I am through playing.

No, you didn't give reasons, you just said it was.

You said,

I wouldn't want you to fear anything and really don't see a reason why you should if you leave the church. That being said it would certainly be a better decision if you had listened to the truth and really understood what they are forfeiting.

That doesn't answer it.

It is fine as long as you understand that whether you believe or not there is eternal consequences to your choices.

neither does this.

No I did not say "believe it". I meant what I said "listen" then weigh the consequences in a "what if it is right" scenario and freely understood and accepted the consequences of his decision.

You are projecting your own biases onto what I am saying. Please refrain from putting your words in my mouth.

You are forfeiting what might have been if you had made a different choice. In this case you are forfeiting the blessings of the LDS way if it happens to be true.

nor this.

Not at all. Whether there is A God or not your choices will affect your posterity for a very long time and if you are wrong and there is a God, Well.

Nor this.

I am not the one to determine justification. I leave that up to Jesus Christ. He earned that right.

nor this.

There you go again putting your words in my mouth. If you will reread for comprehension you will notice I expressly said "Whether there is A God or not". I said nothing about God's punishment. It is called consequences and just is whether just or not.

Nor this.

You seem to have a problem with comprehension. It is fine for you to make whatever choice you want but there are consequences to choices.

Nor this.

Yes it is a just treatment for an honest disbeliever. If you are an honest disbeliever you obviously would not be content nor happy to spend your eternity amongst believers in the presence of a God you didn't believe in. Your "treatment" is to not force you into that misery but to place you in an environment where you are comfortable. You are looking at it as a deprivation to not be in a place where you are uncomfortable. I would think that any rational "honest disbeliever" would look at it as a blessing not to have to associate in a society of believers.

Nor this and I explained why this makes no sense because to reject it I would know God exists so I would like to be there. That doesn't answer whether I'm ever justified in leaving the Church, btw. Now, if God withholds the knowledge that I would be much better in this place along with believers from me, then that also seems rather immoral. IOW, if these are what you meant by your reasons then there is no reason you have provided that works... like at all.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino

[Grundelwalken]

Oh. Do you believe this is justice, then? Do you think it is just that someone who honestly disbelieves and leaves the Church be punished by God?

The problem in your statement is the placing of blame. God will not mete out a "punishment" for the choice but will be unable to offer the blessing that might have been. God is not a vengeful parent but a loving Father, waiting to pour down upon all that we are willing to receive. Perspective changes the feeling and tone of the experience. MW

[rodheadlee]

Luke 8:

1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every ^acity and village, preaching and shewing the glad ^btidings of the kingdom of God: ^cand the twelve were with him,

2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, ^aMary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

4 ¶ And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:

5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the ^amysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in ^bparables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not ^cunderstand.

11 Now the parable is this: The ^aseed is the word of God.

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of ^atemptation fall away.

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are ^achoked with ^bcares and ^criches and ^dpleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to ^eperfection.

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an ^ahonest and good ^bheart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth ^cfruit with patience.

16 ¶ No man, when he hath lighted a ^acandle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.

17 For nothing is ^asecret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever ^ahath, to him shall be ^bgiven; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

[Alvino]

The problem in your statement is the placing of blame. God will not mete out a "punishment" for the choice but will be unable to offer the blessing that might have been. God is not a vengeful parent but a loving Father, waiting to pour down upon all that we are willing to receive. Perspective changes the feeling and tone of the experience. MW

You see, though, that was the whole point of "honest disbeliever". If you say Father wants to overflow us with blessings UNLESS we are not willing to receive them you are pretty much saying disbelievers don't want these blessings. The whole point of disbelief is that you don't think these blessings are going to come but that certainly doesn't mean we wouldn't like to live with our families forever, for example.

Again, though, please give specific blessings you think God is not able to give disbelievers. Secondly, please state how this is a just and fair state of affairs because I don't see how God withholding blessings to honest disbelievers would be fair.

[rodheadlee]

You see, though, that was the whole point of "honest disbeliever". If you say Father wants to overflow us with blessings UNLESS we are not willing to receive them you are pretty much saying disbelievers don't want these blessings. The whole point of disbelief is that you don't think these blessings are going to come but that certainly doesn't mean we wouldn't like to live with our families forever, for example.

Again, though, please give specific blessings you think God is not able to give disbelievers. Secondly, please state how this is a just and fair state of affairs because I don't see how God withholding blessings to honest disbelievers would be fair.

Where are you going to find an honest disbeliever? One that heard the Word and did not believe or one that never had the chance to hear the Word?

[Alvino]

Luke 8:

11 Now the parable is this: The ^aseed is the word of God.

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

This doesn't address honest disbelievers.

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of ^atemptation fall away.

Neither does this.

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are ^achoked with ^bcares and ^criches and ^dpleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to ^eperfection.

Neither does this.

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an ^ahonest and good ^bheart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth ^cfruit with patience.

Right, because no honest and good hearted person leaves belief.

Nothing in your post addresses the issue I raised, rodheadles, unless you believe that honest disbelievers don't exist.

[Alvino]

Where are you going to find an honest disbeliever? One that heard the Word and did not believe or one that never had the chance to hear the Word?

I clarified already that I'm talking about ex-believers, specifically, ex-Mormons. I would consider myself one.

[rodheadlee]

I clarified already that I'm talking about ex-believers, specifically, ex-Mormons. I would consider myself one.

So you heard the Word and chose not to believe and you want no ramifications for your actions.

This was the most important verse in my previous post from Luke 8:

18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever ^ahath, to him shall be ^bgiven; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

[Alvino]

So you heard the Word and chose not to believe

No, I believed, then I didn't. I also didn't choose anything, I was convinced.

and you want no ramifications for your actions.

Whether I want what you think will be the consequences is irrelevant. The point is that those consequences don't seem very just and fair and I've given reasons why.

This was the most important verse in my previous post from Luke 8:

18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever ^ahath, to him shall be ^bgiven; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

However you interpret that verse, this isn't a reason for whether what you think will happen is just and fair or not.

[Garden Girl]

It's curious to me that some of you people seem to think that if you choose the wrong option it was because you misunderstood something. Isn't it obvious that one can be presented supports for the LDS faith that are clearly wrong from ignorant people, for example?

Also, again, what blessings are you talking about that we are missing out on?

No, I don't believe that one can be presented supports for the LDS faith that are wrong and from ignorant people... I say this because of my spiritual experiences and testimony in regard to the Church. Now, if someone as a believer in the LDS faith somehow truly and honestly lost that faith and testimony and leaves the Church, which has happened and does happen, it is my opinion that God will know that person's heart and mind in regard to such a situation. And, as previously stated, IMO such a person would be able to repent in this life and/or beyond the veil.

What blessings would be missed out on by someone leaving the Church? Here, the gift of the Holy Ghost... the blessings of temple attendance and ordinances... the blessings of the Sacrament... the blessings associated with the covenants we've made... the priesthood...

My post of course is based on the premise of a faithful member of the Church losing that faith and testimony, I thought that's what you were referring to...

GG

[Alvino]

No, I don't believe that one can be presented supports for the LDS faith that are wrong and from ignorant people... I say this because of my spiritual experiences and testimony in regard to the Church.

??

You may believe the Church is true because you had confirmatory experiences but that doesn't mean there aren't bad reasons to believe the LDS Church is true. I don't think you understood what I was saying.

Now, if someone as a believer in the LDS faith somehow truly and honestly lost that faith and testimony and leaves the Church, which has happened and does happen, it is my opinion that God will know that person's heart and mind in regard to such a situation. And, as previously stated, IMO such a person would be able to repent in this life and/or beyond the veil.

Again, repent of what? If you honestly did the best you could but still got it wrong, what will you be repenting of?

What blessings would be missed out on by someone leaving the Church? Here, the gift of the Holy Ghost... the blessings of temple attendance and ordinances... the blessings of the Sacrament... the blessings associated with the covenants we've made... the priesthood...

I hope you will understand that for a disbeliever these things on Earth aren't so great. You can ask ex-Mormon disbelievers if you want but even when I was as fervent as I ever was, I can tell you that there is nothing in the LDS religious experience that can't be found in other pursuits. As far as I know this has been the experience of all the ex-Mormon atheist I've talk to.

It would be rather odd that we all just happened to miss something, isn't it?

If these things are what one would be missing then people on the fence have little to trouble themselves with in this regard.

My post of course is based on the premise of a faithful member of the Church losing that faith and testimony, I thought that's what you were referring to...

That's fine but, again, that you believe the Church is true does not mean ALL the reasons presented to people so they will believe are good reasons. It really is pretty much irrelevant that you are a believer here.

[Garden Girl]

You may believe the Church is true because you had confirmatory experiences but that doesn't mean there aren't bad reasons to believe the LDS Church is true. I don't think you understood what I was saying

I hope you will understand that for a disbeliever these things on Earth aren't so great. You can ask ex-Mormon disbelievers if you want but even when I was as fervent as I ever was, I can tell you that there is nothing in the LDS religious experience that can't be found in other pursuits. As far as I know this has been the experience of all the ex-Mormon atheist I've talk to.

It would be rather odd that we all just happened to miss something, isn't it?

If these things are what one would be missing then people on the fence have little to trouble themselves with in this regard.

You of course are entitled to your opinion... I for one, having spent yesterday in the temple, find such an experience(s) to be quite wonderful... and satisfying to my spirit and mind. If you choose to seek your pursuits elsewhere, that is your choice.

As far as what one would have to repent for... for anything that one will have done since leaving the Church that is in need of repentance... this is based on my belief that if and when such a person at some point returns to the Church, which has happened, such repentance would facilitate the return of lost blessings... and IMO the same would happen beyond the veil.

There's no point in my discussing this further with you because we are of different mindsets about this, and no, I do not see changing my view... any more than I'm sure you don't foresee changing yours...

GG

[Libs]

I don't know why you left the Church but, repent of what? If you are an honest disbeliever and using the best tools you had at hand you got convinced the Church wasn't true or it was better to leave it, what is it to repent of? "Sorry for having done the best I could"?

If you make a mistake or exercise poor judgment that not only affects yourself, but others, do you just simply say "oh well, I did the best I could"..?

If I make a mistake (especially, a big mistake), I usually say I am sorry, even if I was operating on the best that I knew, to do.

[Alvino]

If you make a mistake or exercise poor judgment that not only affects yourself, but others, do you just simply say "oh well, I did the best I could"..?

Again with the bad representation of disbelievers.

Why "poor judgment"? Do you think that, for example, Bertrand Russell exercised poor judgment? Why is it that it is so inconceivable to you that a disbeliever could exercise good, or great, judgment so as to be lead by her thoughts out of religion?

Of course if you exercise poor judgment and are reckless you will feel and be guilty of the damage caused. That's not what I'm talking about here. What part of "honest disbeliever" isn't clear to you guys that appears to be so inconceivable?

If I make a mistake (especially, a big mistake), I usually say I am sorry, even if I was operating on the best that I knew, to do.

Sure but that's different from repentance, isn't it? Even if you made a big mistake, wouldn't we say "Good thing there is a good God to help us when we can't help ourselves!"?

[Alvino]

You of course are entitled to your opinion... I for one, having spent yesterday in the temple, find such an experience(s) to be quite wonderful... and satisfying to my spirit and mind. If you choose to seek your pursuits elsewhere, that is your choice.

If we can get everything the blessings you mentioned bring in this mortal realm by means secular, then disbelievers don't really have much to lose on this front, do we?

As far as what one would have to repent for... for anything that one will have done since leaving the Church that is in need of repentance... this is based on my belief that if and when such a person at some point returns to the Church, which has happened, such repentance would facilitate the return of lost blessings... and IMO the same would happen beyond the veil.

It appears you now have other blessings in mind here for that I didn't go to the temple in the last year won't be fixed by me repenting today. You have in mind blessings of the worlds beyond, I reckon.

Anyways, if I can squeeze meaning out of the few words you said here, I get that you believe people who left the Church and realize the mistake of their ways after death in the next life will have a chance to get the spiritual blessings back, is that correct?

If that is correct, then again, the honest disbeliever seems to have little to worry by following her conscience and leave the Church in this life... that is, if better reasons for the truth of Mormonism's claims are provided in the next.

There's no point in my discussing this further with you because we are of different mindsets about this, and no, I do not see changing my view... any more than I'm sure you don't foresee changing yours...

Believe me, I can conceive of me changing views because to go back to Mormonism would seem as amazing to me now as it was to get out of it when I believed. I know better than not be open to change.

If I may suggest something, though, that folks have different views is seldom the problem. The problem is communication and to breach it is a matter of effort and patience.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino

[why me]

I was listening to the podcast posted on the "John Dehlin And Faith Reconstruction" thread and thought, what do people facing faith crises have to fear?

If God is as good as he is said to be, why the fear of leaving the Church or going to where one's best mental efforts take you? If God is good, what do I have to fear if I truly did what I carefully thought was the best? Maybe this idea of God is wrong but I can't imagine a good God that will punish someone who honestly did what they saw as the more honest and better approach to their lives and beliefs, even if that meant disobeying God's commands.

What does a good god mean? For example, why is there satan if god is good? To have Satan on this earth and god allowing satan to wreck his havoc, does this mean that god's goodness is questionable? We live in a very do what you wish time and this can create the misunderstanding that god is always good in the human sense of good. But I think that we need to reflect on what does god is good mean.

[why me]

Oh. Do you believe this is justice, then? Do you think it is just that someone who honestly disbelieves and leaves the Church be punished by God?

I don't know. I suppose that it all depends on the person and what they have done on this earth. But to believe that god is always good in the human sense, is probably not correct. For example, the couple who lied about their tithe were struck dead as the New Testament states. Was this god's goodness? Or the soldiers who were drowned in the red sea...was this god's goodness? And can we say with these examples, that god is good?

Edited February 4, 2013 by why me

[why me]

Putting aside merely social consequences, what consequences do you have in mind?

I don't know. However, you do have an advantage in your disbelief in the lds church because the lds church has given you a great foundation to build on. The value structure in the lds faith is a great family guide to a healthy family life. Many people who are atheists or who have not come in contact with the lds church do not have such a guide. And as we can see from the situation of families throughout the US, many families are in crisis...as are people. I think that you should consider yourself lucky to have such a foundation as a non-believing exmember.

Edited February 4, 2013 by why me

[Alvino]

What does a good god mean? For example, why is there satan if god is good? To have Satan on this earth and god allowing satan to wreck his havoc, does this mean that god's goodness is questionable? We live in a very do what you wish time and this can create the misunderstanding that god is always good in the human sense of good. But I think that we need to reflect on what does god is good mean.

I'll go with any idea you have of good just to see where it takes us. I believe humans are similar enough so that after careful conversation we can agree on pretty much about everything that matters.

It appears, though, that if you think now that God is not good by what will be revealed by our best efforts to be good, then God will appear as not-good or even immoral or cruel. I'm willing to see if that comes out.

[Alvino]

I don't know. I suppose that it all depends on the person and what they have done on this earth.

Well, that's why we are only considering one aspect, namely, leaving the Church after careful consideration.