What Do People Considering Leaving The Church Have To Fear?

[Alvino]

I'm not talking about just a "piece" of information.

Please be careful. You were talking about a piece of information, namely, whether the Church is true or not or whether certain claims about it are true or not. I was trying to point out to you that these things are important but the really important things are the consequences of these judgments. Knowing the Church is true is important because.... why? is the answer to that 'why?" ever "Because God will punish you if you don't" or "Because God will withhold blessings from you if you don't"?

I think almost everyone, who has ever thought about leaving the church (or has actually left) has, at some point, wondered if they were making the right decision...especially, if they have had any kind of testimony, at all, that the church is true.

Of course. My point was not that they didn't wonder whether they were making the right decision.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino

[Libs]

Please be careful. You were talking about a piece of information, namely, whether the Church is true or not or whether certain claims about it are true or not. I was trying to point out to you that these things are important but the really important things are the consequences of these judgments. Knowing the Church is true is important because.... why? is the answer to that 'why?" ever "Because God will punish you if you don't" or "Because God will withhold blessings from you if you don't"?

Yes, I agree. There are heavy consequences, if one is wrong. That's why it's difficult to leave (was my point).

I was simply answering the OP, as it was presented.

[Alvino]

Yes, I agree. There are heavy consequences, if one is wrong. That's why it's difficult to leave (was my point).

Putting aside merely social consequences, what consequences do you have in mind?

[Libs]

Putting aside merely social consequences, what consequences do you have in mind?

Eternal consequences.

Going against God's will and plan for you (and your family).

Throwing away a God-given gift and all of the blessings that might come with it.

Etc.

[Alvino]

Eternal consequences.

Going against God's will and plan for you (and your family).

Throwing away a God-given gift and all of the blessings that might come with it.

Etc.

I'm looking for something here that is so valuable that justifies going against one's best rational and emotional efforts but I fail. Can you help me see them? Why not go against God's will and plan for you and your family if such option seems incorrect and dishonest to oneself? Also, why wouldn't the blessings you have in mind not be achieved if someone and her family move away from Mormonism?

Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino

[Duncan]

What is wrong with leaving the Church if one saw that as the best course of action? Is there anything wrong with it? What is wrong with stopping to believe in God? Is God OK with it if that's what one saw as the best conclusion to take?

Clearly, if leaving the Church is going to devastate your marriage and other less abrupt actions seem more prudent, then by all means don't leave. Putting those practical problems aside, though.

well, I mean the practical problems are the problems with leaving the Church, forget the idealogical stuff, like as you say if you are devastating your marriage or hurting family members, but you/we have to decide what is the future of your decision

[ERayR]

I was listening to the podcast posted on the "John Dehlin And Faith Reconstruction" thread and thought, what do people facing faith crises have to fear?

If God is as good as he is said to be, why the fear of leaving the Church or going to where one's best mental efforts take you? If God is good, what do I have to fear if I truly did what I carefully thought was the best? Maybe this idea of God is wrong but I can't imagine a good God that will punish someone who honestly did what they saw as the more honest and better approach to their lives and beliefs, even if that meant disobeying God's commands.

I wouldn't want you to fear anything and really don't see a reason why you should if you leave the church. That being said it would certainly be a better decision if you had listened to the truth and really understood what they are forfeiting.

[Alvino]

well, I mean the practical problems are the problems with leaving the Church, forget the idealogical stuff, like as you say if you are devastating your marriage or hurting family members, but you/we have to decide what is the future of your decision

For you, then, if I don't hurt anyone if I leave or stay, can I leave and nothing wrong with it? Is God, according to you, OK with it, too?

[Garden Girl]

I think it's important to remember that God knows our minds and hearts... if say a Church member honestly loses faith and testimony and subsequently leaves the Church, certainly there are blessings that he/she will be giving up and/or missing out on here... but because the choice was made with honest evaluation or belief even though wrong, I don't think God adds on additional punishment. In fact, seems to me that person will have a chance to repent beyond the veil and before final judgment when the truth will be manifest... I can see a person slapping their forehead and saying... Ohhh, I was wrong... I didn't understand correctly... and they would likely be able to repent because they did honestly misunderstand or misinterpret. If they simply become inactive and their name remained on the rolls, then IMO their ordinances if any would still be in effect and upon repentance before final judgment could be regained. IMO it really does hinge on the true and honest belief of our hearts and minds because that will be what God looks at... and he will look deep into us.

IMO if a person does not repent upon seeing and understanding the full truth, then they will be judged accordingly and consequences will be just.

Of course, this is my personal opinion...

GG

[Alvino]

I wouldn't want you to fear anything and really don't see a reason why you should if you leave the church. That being said it would certainly be a better decision if you had listened to the truth and really understood what they are forfeiting.

By 'listening to the truth' you mean believed it? It seems clear to me that one can have bad reasons for doing what's correct, or doing what's incorrect having better reasons. You seem to imply here that every time someone disbelieves it is because they ignored the better reasons that had to be presented to them. If you don't imply this, then, do you think one can't have worse reasons to do the correct than to do the incorrect and still be warranted in doing the incorrect option?

Also, what are we forfeiting?

Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino

[ERayR]

For you, then, if I don't hurt anyone if I leave or stay, can I leave and nothing wrong with it? Is God, according to you, OK with it, too?

It is fine as long as you understand that whether you believe or not there is eternal consequences to your choices.

[Alvino]

I think it's important to remember that God knows our minds and hearts... if say a Church member honestly loses faith and testimony and subsequently leaves the Church, certainly there are blessings that he/she will be giving up and/or missing out on here... but because the choice was made with honest evaluation or belief even though wrong, I don't think God adds on additional punishment. In fact, seems to me that person will have a chance to repent beyond the veil and before final judgment when the truth will be manifest... I can see a person slapping their forehead and saying... Ohhh, I was wrong... I didn't understand correctly... and they would likely be able to repent because they did honestly misunderstand or misinterpret.

It's curious to me that some of you people seem to think that if you choose the wrong option it was because you misunderstood something. Isn't it obvious that one can be presented supports for the LDS faith that are clearly wrong from ignorant people, for example?

Also, again, what blessings are you talking about that we are missing out on?

[Alvino]

It is fine as long as you understand that whether you believe or not there is eternal consequences to your choices.

???

So, I can believe that there is no God and no afterlife and it is fine as long as I understand that there will be eternal consequences to my choices? A little contradictory, me thinks.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino

[ERayR]

By 'listening to the truth' you mean believed it? It seems clear to me that one can have bad reasons for doing what's correct, or doing what's incorrect having better reasons. You seem to imply here that every time someone disbelieves it is because they didn't hear the better reasons. If you don't imply this, then, do you think one can't have worse reasons to do the correct than to do the incorrect and still be warranted in doing the incorrect option?

Also, what are we forfeiting?

No I did not say "believe it". I meant what I said "listen" then weigh the consequences in a "what if it is right" scenario and freely understood and accepted the consequences of his decision.

You are projecting your own biases onto what I am saying. Please refrain from putting your words in my mouth.

You are forfeiting what might have been if you had made a different choice. In this case you are forfeiting the blessings of the LDS way if it happens to be true.

Edited February 4, 2013 by ERayR

[ERayR]

???

So, I can believe that there is no God and no afterlife and it is fine as long as I understand that there will be eternal consequences to my choices? A little contradictory, me thinks.

Not at all. Whether there is A God or not your choices will affect your posterity for a very long time and if you are wrong and there is a God, Well.

[Alvino]

No I did not say "believe it". I meant what I said "listen" then weigh the consequences in a "what if it is right" scenario and freely understood and accepted the consequences of his decision.

You are projecting your own biases onto what I am saying. Please refrain from putting your words in my mouth.

It was a question, not saying you said "believe it". Let's chill a little, shall we?

So, I can reject Mormonism and am justified in doing so as long as I understood that IF IT IS RIGHT, then so-and-so follows or will happen?

[ERayR]

It was a question, not saying you said "believe it". Let's chill a little, shall we?

So, I can reject Mormonism and am justified in doing so as long as I understood that IF IT IS RIGHT, then so-and-so follows or will happen?

I am not the one to determine justification. I leave that up to Jesus Christ. He earned that right.

[Alvino]

Not at all. Whether there is A God or not your choices will affect your posterity for a very long time and if you are wrong and there is a God, Well.

Oh. Do you believe this is justice, then? Do you think it is just that someone who honestly disbelieves and leaves the Church be punished by God?

[Alvino]

I am not the one to determine justification. I leave that up to Jesus Christ. He earned that right.

...you just said it was fine if we left as long as we understand the possible consequences.

[Libs]

I like Garden Girl's answer.

[ERayR]

Oh. Do you believe this is justice, then? Do you think it is just that someone who honestly disbelieves and leaves the Church be punished by God?

There you go again putting your words in my mouth. If you will reread for comprehension you will notice I expressly said "Whether there is A God or not". I said nothing about God's punishment. It is called consequences and just is whether just or not.

[ERayR]

...you just said it was fine if we left as long as we understand the possible consequences.

You seem to have a problem with comprehension. It is fine for you to make whatever choice you want but there are consequences to choices.

[Duncan]

For you, then, if I don't hurt anyone if I leave or stay, can I leave and nothing wrong with it? Is God, according to you, OK with it, too?

I dunno! That's between God and you, if the Church is indeed false then I can't imagine him being upset but if it is true then he may have an issue

[Alvino]

There you go again putting your words in my mouth. If you will reread for comprehension you will notice I expressly said "Whether there is A God or not". I said nothing about God's punishment. It is called consequences and just is whether just or not.

Let's recapitulate. I asked, "For you, then, if I don't hurt anyone if I leave or stay, can I leave and nothing wrong with it? Is God, according to you, OK with it, too?" to which you responded, "It is fine as long as you understand that whether you believe or not there is eternal consequences to your choices."

You mentioned eternal consequences. Again, supposedly there is a God and where we go to in the afterlife will be a place where that God has control over. Weren't you talking about consequences that will befall in the afterlife, that place where God has a bunch of control over? What I was asking you before was whether such actions on the part of God (punishing or holding back blessings) is just treatment to an honest disbeliever.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino

[Alvino]

I dunno! That's between God and you, if the Church is indeed false then I can't imagine him being upset

Well, he might be a very very bad God, worse than anyone thought.

but if it is true then he may have an issue

Do you think that is just, then (to punish an honest disbeliever)?

Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino