Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 I don't know. However, you do have an advantage in your disbelief in the lds church because the lds church has given you a great foundation to build on. The value structure in the lds faith is a great family guide to a healthy family life. Many people who are atheists or who have not come in contact with the lds church do not have such a guide. And as we can see from the situation of families throughout the US, many families are in crisis...as are people. I think that you should consider yourself lucky to have such a foundation as a non-believing exmember.oh, thanks.
Libs Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) Alvino, you almost sound like you are looking for assurance that leaving the church will have no consequences. Perhaps, there won't be consequences (I truly don't know)...no one (except God) can really know. Edited February 4, 2013 by Libs
Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) Alvino, you almost sound like you are looking for assurance that leaving the church will have no consequences.Right, because a disbeliever can't be honest about discussing topics reasonably. He must always have an ulterior motive like self-gratification or wants to find reasons to sin and not feel bad, or probably realizing deep inside that he is wrong and looks for assurance that leaving the Church will bring no bad consequences. Or he must be reckless and exercise poor judgment. Yeah, that must be it!Libs, you have repeatedly shown here a disheartening unwillingness to give respect to disbelievers. May I at least direct you to the thread on Richard Bushman's Description of Faith Crisis for some advice. You are not helping your faith nor that of those that see your posts. Plus, you kind of make those now outside glad we left such a thriving place for these attitudes of intellectual cynicism. Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino
altersteve Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 No, I believed, then I didn't. I also didn't choose anything, I was convinced.Yes, you did. We choose what to believe and what not to believe.
Libs Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Right, because a disbeliever can't be honest about discussing topics reasonably. He must always have an ulterior motive like self-gratification or wants to find reasons to sin and not feel bad, or probably realizing deep inside that he is wrong and looks for assurance that leaving the Church will bring no bad consequences. Or he must be reckless and exercise poor judgment. Yeah, that must be it!Libs, you have repeatedly shown here a disheartening unwillingness to give respect to disbelievers. May I at least direct you to the thread on Richard Bushman's Description of Faith Crisis for some advice. You are not helping your faith nor that of those that see your posts. Plus, you kind of make those now outside glad we left such a thriving place for these attitudes of intellectual cynicism.Al, I am not a believer. I didn't say any of the things, above, that you attributed to me. I respect your choice and anyone else's choice. All I said was, I don't know how that is going to work out with God (not for myself or for you or anyone else). You are perfectly free to choose whatever you believe is right. No judgments from me. 1
Calm Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Libs, you have repeatedly shown here a disheartening unwillingness to give respect to disbelievers.This is just so completely wrong, especially when one considers Libs' long posting history. I would urge you to consider the possibility that you are misunderstanding her....because what you describe just doesn't have any basis in actual fact.
Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 Al, I am not a believer. I didn't say any of the things, above, that you attributed to me. I respect your choice and anyone else's choice. All I said was, I don't know how that is going to work out with God (not for myself or for you or anyone else). You are perfectly free to choose whatever you believe is right. No judgments from me.By you repeatedly failing to get the idea of "honest disbeliever" you showed a lack of intellectual charity towards disbelievers (several times, actually). You hint that I'm looking for assurance that nothing wrong will happen to me when I die, or that we made a blunder or exercise poor judgment on the God issue. It's also weird that you say you don't know how it will turn out with God when you say you are not a believer (at least in God you do seem to believe). Sorry for assuming you were LDS.Sadly, though, you didn't answer the questions nor post #69 and went for ad homs.
Libs Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Thank you, Calmoriah.Perhaps, I'm just not making my posts clear enough...?I'm really not judging disbelievers in the church. I am on the outside, myself. It just seemed that Alvino was looking for some assurance that he would not be judged in the afterlife (if God is "good")...and I just don't think any of us have that assurance.Sometimes, leaving the church is (psychologically) more difficult than staying!
Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) This is just so completely wrong, especially when one considers Libs' long posting history. I would urge you to consider the possibility that you are misunderstanding her....because what you describe just doesn't have any basis in actual fact.Sigh*I explained how Libs shows a lack of intellectual respect for disbelievers and their reasons for leaving. Care to address that, calmoriah? Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino
Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) Thank you, Calmoriah.Perhaps, I'm just not making my posts clear enough...?I'm really not judging disbelievers in the church. I am on the outside, myself. It just seemed that Alvino was looking for some assurance that he would not be judged in the afterlife (if God is "good")...and I just don't think any of us have that assurance.Sometimes, leaving the church is (psychologically) more difficult than staying! Here's an idea that might help.Think of a disbeliever that is honest in her intellectual enterprise to see whether what she believes is right or wrong. Let's say this disbeliever leaves the Church after careful consideration and enough things not making sense. She does not look for any "assurance" that she won't get punished in the afterlife, she isn't "exercising poor judgment" either.Can you conceive of that, Libs? (not trying to offend your intelligence. I said "conceive" because some think this concept of "honest disbeliever" is impossible because an honest inquirer would arrive to the truth of God's existence, for example).If you do, then, would a good God (as far as we can conceive of such a being) have good reason to reprimand her? What reason could that be? Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino
Libs Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 By you repeatedly failing to get the idea of "honest disbeliever" you showed a lack of intellectual charity towards disbelievers (several times, actually). You hint that I'm looking for assurance that nothing wrong will happen to me when I die, or that we made a blunder or exercise poor judgment on the God issue. It's also weird that you say you don't know how it will turn out with God when you say you are not a believer (at least in God you do seem to believe). Sorry for assuming you were LDS.Sadly, though, you didn't answer the questions nor post #69 and went for ad homs.I believe in God. I also believe some of the things taught in the LDS Church (like we are all children of God). I don't want to go into the reasons I am still out, but I do have reasons.I didn't mean to "ad hom" you. Sorry, but what is it that I didn't answer? I'm still unsure about what you're, actually, asking.
Libs Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Here's an idea that might help.Think of a disbeliever that is honest in her intellectual enterprise to see whether what she believes is right or wrong. Let's say this disbeliever leaves the Church after careful consideration and enough things not making sense. She does not look for any "assurance" that she won't get punished in the afterlife, she isn't "exercising poor judgment" either.Can you conceive of that, Libs? (not trying to offend your intelligence. I said "conceive" because some think this concept of "honest disbeliever" is impossible because an honest inquirer would arrive to the truth of God's existence, for example)Sure. You just described me.What I am saying to you is that you may not be aware of the full consequences of leaving the church. I'm certainly not. It may be the right decision.. We may sincerely and truly believe we made the right decision....but, in the afterlife, find out it was wrong (is all I'm saying). 1
Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) Sure. You just described me.OK.What I am saying to you is that you may not be aware of the full consequences of leaving the church. I'm certainly not. It may be the right decision.. We may sincerely and truly believe we made the right decision....but, in the afterlife, find out it was wrong (is all I'm saying).About not knowing the full consequences, I'm saying as far as we can see.I explained why being wrong doesn't give enough reasons to a good God to punish an honest disbeliever. What reason could possibly justify a good God punishing an honest disbeliever, Libs? Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino
Libs Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 About not knowing the full consequences, I'm saying as far as we can see.I explained why being wrong doesn't give enough reasons to a good God to punish an honest disbeliever. What reason could possibly justify a good God punishing an honest disbeliever?I'm just going to say right up front...I'm not God! I think everyone here has said that God would likely show consideration for the light we had (whatever we have to work with) and I do believe we have a loving and gracious Father (and Mother). I said nothing about "punishment". If the LDS Church is THE Church, then the only "punishment" would be self-inflicted, in that we didn't follow up on what we had been given. 1
Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 I'm just going to say right up front...I'm not God! I think everyone here has said that God would likely show consideration for the light we had (whatever we have to work with) and I do believe we have a loving and gracious Father (and Mother). again, as far as we see, Libs... as far as we see. Use your powerful reason and think, is an honest disbeliever doing something he ought not in the eyes of God by leaving the Church?I said nothing about "punishment". If the LDS Church is THE Church, then the only "punishment" would be self-inflicted, in that we didn't follow up on what we had been given.By punishment I mean something broader like reprimand. If an honest disbeliever leaves the Church, did she do something reprehensible?
altersteve Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 again, as far as we see, Libs... as far as we see. Use your powerful reason and think, is an honest disbeliever doing something he ought not in the eyes of God by leaving the Church?How many times do you want this question answered?
Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 How many times do you want this question answered?I don't know but she hasn't graced me with her answer.Wanna give it a try, steve?
Libs Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) Alvino, I've answered your question, directly, several times.If you believe you've done the right thing, then no worries, right?Take good care and God bless. Edited February 4, 2013 by Libs
Calm Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Thank you, Calmoriah.Perhaps, I'm just not making my posts clear enough...?Don't think that is the problem, my dear.
altersteve Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 I don't know but she hasn't graced me with her answer.Wanna give it a try, steve?My answer is the same one that the gospel gives us. If you don't believe the Church is true, then don't stay. Go where you believe the Spirit is telling you to go.This has been stated several times throughout the thread.
Calm Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Sigh*I explained how Libs shows a lack of intellectual respect for disbelievers and their reasons for leaving. Care to address that, calmoriah?No, you explained how you interpreted Libs to be showing a lack or respect, etc. You didn't actually show Libs doing that.
Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 Alvino, I've answered your question, directly, several times.If you believe you've done the right thing, then no worries, right?Take good care and God bless.Oy vey iz mirhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg
Alvino Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 ...I think I'll wait for someone who knows what an answer or a supporting reason looks like now. Fingers crossed.If you continue to imply a poster is dishonest because they have a different opinion you will be removed.
altersteve Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Oy vey iz mirhttp://upload.wikime...palm_statue.jpgInappropriate. Libs gave you a perfectly good answer.
why me Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 I'll go with any idea you have of good just to see where it takes us. I believe humans are similar enough so that after careful conversation we can agree on pretty much about everything that matters.It appears, though, that if you think now that God is not good by what will be revealed by our best efforts to be good, then God will appear as not-good or even immoral or cruel. I'm willing to see if that comes out.I gave you two events...one from the old testament and one from the new testament. Where is the human understanding of good in those two events? Was god showing his goodness by striking dead the couple who cheated on their tithe? And did god show is goodness when he drowned many soldiers in the red sea? So, what does God is good mean?
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