What Do People Considering Leaving The Church Have To Fear?

[Calm]

I actually find shameful that you would use a story like that of this lonely old man in pain to try to give credence to your gospel. If I knew that man lived in my area I probably would try to invite him to Church myself (though I would not preach things I believed were false) nothing of which would have to do with spiritual blessings.

You are lecturing him about what he felt and did as a child? You really think it is a child's responsibility to see through an adult's appearance and to react to him on that level? Edited February 15, 2013 by calmoriah

[Alvino]

You are lecturing him about what he felt and did as a child? You really think it is a child's responsibility to see through an adult's appearance and to react to him on that level?

Please read the discussion before jumping in, calmoriah. What I found shameful was him using that story to give credence to the gospel, not anything else.

[Calm]

Please read the discussion before jumping in, calmoriah. What I found shameful was him using that story to give credence to the gospel, not anything else.

And then you talked about how you would have invited him to church, etc. etc. Since by the time Hamba was an adult, the old man was a member, I don't see how you can claim you were not lecturing him on how he should have behaved as a child.

[Alvino]

And then you talked about how you would have invited him to church, etc. etc. Since by the time Hamba was an adult, the old man was a member, I don't see how you can claim you were not lecturing him on how he should have behaved as a child.

Did he bring up the story of the old man here at mormondialogue.com to give credence to the gospel as a child?

[Calm]

Did he bring up the story of the old man here at mormondialogue.com to give credence to the gospel as a child?

Did you or did you not say that you would have invited the man out to church if you had been in that position?

[Alvino]

Did you or did you not say that you would have invited the man out to church if you had been in that position?

yes, but that was just to show that no one in his story did anything wrong. Kind of like saying "Well, even I would have done that for that poor soul." It was his bringing that story up here as he did that I find shameful.

[Vanguard]

Well said. How could our God cast a blind eye to the fact that one of his children followed their conscience in leaving the church? You see, the one question that needs to be answered on threads like this is - Is it possible to leave the church and remain in good standing with your Creator?

Of course "it possible to leave the church and remain in good standing with your Creator". It is just that all paths do not lead to the same place. God does not want anyone to be unhappy so each chooses his associations beyond the grave.

Then let me rephrase my question - Is it possible to leave the church during this mortality and still receive the fullness of all God's blessings in the afterlife? Am I to understand from your comment that leaving the church by definition precludes one from arriving at certain "places"?

[ERayR]

Then let me rephrase my question - Is it possible to leave the church during this mortality and still receive the fullness of all God's blessings in the afterlife?

No. You wouldn't be happy there. You will receive what you have chosen.

Am I to understand from your comment that leaving the church by definition precludes one from arriving at certain "places"?

The church has nothing to do with it. It will be God's judgements. The Church is a way of preparing yourself to receive the fullness of God's blessings.

Edited February 15, 2013 by ERayR

[TomHagen]

This is mostly an aside....but did you really believe the brethren were infallible, or was this more exaggerated to make the connotative point?

With luv,

BD

Collectively, yes. I believed, as is taught, that "the brethren will never lead the church astray." Not that any single man was perfect, but that as a group of "prophets, seers, and revelators," they could and would guide the church and its members perfectly. That if the brethren said it, then we'd all better get in line. That is what I believed.

[ERayR]

Collectively, yes. I believed, as is taught, that "the brethren will never lead the church astray." Not that any single man was perfect, but that as a group of "prophets, seers, and revelators," they could and would guide the church and its members perfectly. That if the brethren said it, then we'd all better get in line. That is what I believed.

And what has changed your mind?

[Sethbag]

Is WHO ok with it? Somebody who doesn't exist? Why would you care?

This is why I like the bumper sticker that says "Blasphemy is a victimless crime."

I also like "Atheism is a religion in the same way that baldness is a hairstyle."

I personally don't believe that God exists. If he/she/it does exist, then I'll be curious to find out more about its/her/his nature, as I'm fairly certain that if she/he/it does exist, he/she/it isn't what the Mormons, or, really, any of the others have been telling us this whole time.

But in the end, the only "wager" I think is a good one is this one: if God does exist, and gave me the intelligence, curiosity, and critical thinking that I've attempted to employ, in good faith, to discover the truth about him, then he cannot but be pleased at my efforts, even if those efforts lead me to conclude, as best I could, that he doesn't exist.

To respond to the OP, there's a lot of FUD out there about leaving the church. It can be traumatizing to realize that one has been so thoroughly wrong about something so important for so long in one's life. It's also true that some peoples' families will react badly to the news, and some people may suffer mightily in their marriage if their spouse can't accept their apostasy (as one example, my former sister-in-law told my BIL that she simply could not stay married to a man who didn't believe in the church. He didn't. And she didn't.). Those are real possible consequences. As far as fear though? I don't think there's really anything to fear in the eternal sense.

Unless you're the kind of person to take Pascal's Wager seriously. If you honestly believe that God would rather be worshipped by someone who is only doing it out of fear of being wrong, than not be worshipped by someone who honestly believes there's nothing there to worship, then I suppose you should fear leaving the church.

On the other hand, maybe you should fear anyway. I mean, Allah could be the real God (I know, I know, don't even start about "Allah" just being the word for God). Or it could be the trinitarian God of Catholicism. Or it could be Mithras. Or maybe Odin is the real God, and by not believing in him right now Odin is making sure you will not have a place set for you in Valhalla.

I would go so far as to say that fear of this nature should be paralyzing, given there are thousands of other churches, and only one Mormon church, so if the odds are even per church, you are probably already thousands of times more like to be wrong (and screwed by the petty and jealous God who turns out to be real) than you are to be right (and lucky you chose wisely).

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I was listening to the podcast posted on the "John Dehlin And Faith Reconstruction" thread and thought, what do people facing faith crises have to fear?

If God is as good as he is said to be, why the fear of leaving the Church or going to where one's best mental efforts take you? If God is good, what do I have to fear if I truly did what I carefully thought was the best? Maybe this idea of God is wrong but I can't imagine a good God that will punish someone who honestly did what they saw as the more honest and better approach to their lives and beliefs, even if that meant disobeying God's commands.

In my case I have been in the Church so long, I don't want to live any other way...I do what I want, and what I want is to be good.

[Vanguard]

Hey, what's up with the quote mechanism? You and I now have several responses back and forth but I could not easily get them included in my most recent response below. It only seems to allow the inclusion of one previous response round and that's it. Am I doing something wrong?

Well said. How could our God cast a blind eye to the fact that one of his children followed their conscience in leaving the church? You see, the one question that needs to be answered on threads like this is - Is it possible to leave the church and remain in good standing with your Creator?

Of course "it possible to leave the church and remain in good standing with your Creator". It is just that all paths do not lead to the same place. God does not want anyone to be unhappy so each chooses his associations beyond the grave.

Then let me rephrase my question - Is it possible to leave the church during this mortality and still receive the fullness of all God's blessings in the afterlife?

No. You wouldn't be happy there. You will receive what you have chosen.

Am I to understand from your comment that leaving the church by definition precludes one from arriving at certain "places"?

The church has nothing to do with it. It will be God's judgements. The Church is a way of preparing yourself to receive the fullness of God's blessings.

But you seem to be saying God's judgments have an indescriminate automatic pilot that says "leave the church and you won't get it all". That being the case, it would be pretty easy to pick those folks out. Are you comfortable with that determination or would you rather leave it to God to make that decision? This would imply maybe there are other more important factors determining an individual's final state than whether or not he kept going to church. Or in your view is continued church participation an absolute?

There are many folks who never got the chance to hear the Latter-Day message, many others who did not get a good enough introduction to it, and still more who because of their distorted Mormon family upbringing decide to leave the church to maintain their sanity. A litmus for "the haves and have nots" cannot hinge on whether one leaves the church but rather THE litmus is for all to do their best with the capacity given them.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Vanguard

[ERayR]

Hey, what's up with the quote mechanism? You and I now have several responses back and forth but I could not easily get them included in my most recent response below. It only seems to allow the inclusion of one previous response round and that's it. Am I doing something wrong?

But you seem to be saying God's judgments have an indescriminate automatic pilot that says "leave the church and you won't get it all". That being the case, it would be pretty easy to pick those folks out. Are you comfortable with that determination or would you rather leave it to God to make that decision? This would imply maybe there are other more important factors determining an individual's final state than whether or not he kept going to church. Or in your view is continued church participation an absolute?

There are much more important things than Church attendance. Church attendance is only to prepare to make eternal covenants. The important thing is the covenants performed by one having authority.

There are many folks who never got the chance to hear the Latter-Day message, many others who did not get a good enough introduction to it, and still more who because of their distorted Mormon family upbringing decide to leave the church to maintain their sanity. A litmus for "the haves and have nots" cannot hinge on whether one leaves the church but rather THE litmus is for all to do their best with the capacity given them.

You are absolutely correct there are many who do not get a chance to really hear the message. (Many more in fact than do). That is why we do vicarious ordinances for the dead. A practice that will continue through the millennium.

Edited February 16, 2013 by ERayR

[Calm]

Church attendance is only to prepare to make eternal covenants

Also to get and provide others spiritual, social, emotional and even physical support in pursuing a better life and seeking out God. (I know you know this, just finishing the thought for you.) Edited February 16, 2013 by calmoriah

[bcuzbcuz]

there's a lot of FUD out there

I had to look up FUD. I'll have to find some excuse to use it this coming week.

I think those who worry about their relationship with God and whether they have chosen the right path should get the bumper sticker that says,

"Jesus is coming, LOOK BUSY"

[mfbukowski]

But in the end, the only "wager" I think is a good one is this one: if God does exist, and gave me the intelligence, curiosity, and critical thinking that I've attempted to employ, in good faith, to discover the truth about him, then he cannot but be pleased at my efforts, even if those efforts lead me to conclude, as best I could, that he doesn't exist.

For what it's worth, I agree. I was there once myself but then for some unknown reason I had a heavy duty religious experience about Mormonism. It wasn't my fault.

The good news is that if Mormonism is correct we will both be fine, because you did what you thought was right to the best of your knowledge and will get a second chance.

I would not be interested in a God who put us into a world where you flip a coin and get the answer right or you don't. Any God worthy of worship, in my opinion, given this crazy world we live in, would give mulligans for those who earnestly thought they were doing the right thing.

And duh, where do we find such a God? In Mormonism.

So if an when we both wake up dead and look around I think all that will matter is how hard we tried to figure it out. I think we are graded on effort more than anything. And if we don't wake up dead, we will both have done our best. Can't expect much more than that out of life I guess!

[mfbukowski]

Hey, what's up with the quote mechanism? You and I now have several responses back and forth but I could not easily get them included in my most recent response below. It only seems to allow the inclusion of one previous response round and that's it. Am I doing something wrong?

Hmmmm interesting

I said

Hmmmm interesting

And now I am saying- no, I think you can do several quote layers

We shall see if it works or not

Yep it looks like it did!