What Do People Considering Leaving The Church Have To Fear?

[why me]

By you repeatedly failing to get the idea of "honest disbeliever" you showed a lack of intellectual charity towards disbelievers (several times, actually). Y

Sadly, though, you didn't answer the questions nor post #69 and went for ad homs.

And is this your honest opinion? Too bad for Libs. I am sure that with your guidance you will be able to show her how she can improve on herself. Of course, you may fail to see the flaws of your own logic. For example, when I confronted you on your god is good claim, you failed to engage me with dialogue and just blew it off as you just did with Libs. And yet, you lecture us.

Edited February 4, 2013 by why me

[rodheadlee]

No, I believed, then I didn't. I also didn't choose anything, I was convinced.

Whether I want what you think will be the consequences is irrelevant. The point is that those consequences don't seem very just and fair and I've given reasons why.

However you interpret that verse, this isn't a reason for whether what you think will happen is just and fair or not.

Who convinced you? and I didn't make the rules, Jesus Christ made the rules.

Luke 9:

23 ¶ And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his ^across daily, and ^bfollow me.

24 ^aFor whosoever will save his life shall ^blose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and ^alose himself, or be cast away?

26 For whosoever shall be ^aashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the ^bSon of man be ashamed, ^cwhen he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

Luke 13:

23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there ^afew that be saved? And he said unto them,

24 ¶ Strive to enter in at the ^astrait ^bgate: for many, I say unto you, will ^cseek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Luke 16: 19

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

And there was a certain ^abeggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the ^aangels into ^bAbraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in ^ahell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime ^areceivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great ^agulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have ^aMoses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the ^adead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they ^ahear not Moses and the ^bprophets, neither will they be ^cpersuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[CV75]

what do people facing faith crises have to fear?

It is only natural that some learn this lesson later than others: “…they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.” (D&C 88:32, 33).

No one ever needs to fear that God does not love them, or that He will not give them all they could ever want in righteousness, including “that which they are willing to receive.” Probably more close to home is that no ever needs needs to fear that anyone else does not love them, either. This is the courage and integrity of conviction, as unwise as the conviction may be.

[CV75]

Is one, then, justified in leaving belief and the Church if one sees fit? Does one have anything to fear in the afterlife? Is there spiritual danger in leaving the Church?

Justified by himself; at a minimum, he has to fear only himself in the afterlife; yes, there is spiritual danger in leaving the Church, but try telling him that once he has decided there is none.

[CV75]

First of all, because I care for others and they might believe in God.

If you haven't noticed, I'm speaking more to the hearts of people on the fence than anyone else. Of course I don't believe in God but even if he were to exist I find little reason to worry about it. A powerful God who will punish you at all for having honestly considered the options and saw the best one to disobey is not someone worth praising for a good character in the first place.

If the first paragraph were true, there would be no need for the second paragraph. And D&C 88 proves the last sentence wrong as well.

[CV75]

The question is whether you think it is correct for God to punish an honest disbeliever or not.

Read D&C 88.

[Maidservant]

Alvino, it seems that you are asking the question from several different viewpoints, but when a person answers from one of the viewpoints, you change and say, no not THAT viewpoint, the OTHER one. These are the viewpoints I got out of your question so far--maybe you can tell me which one you want the most? or from all? or if there is another viewpoint I'm missing?

1-- from the point of view of the honest disbeliever (by the way, where are the dishonest disbelievers? I can't imagine any or a subgroup so unutterably tiny that it is an anomaly to the question)

2--from the point of view of God (which in reality, no one can know, but which for the sake of discussion we can imagine an LDS approach to what God might be thinking)

3--from the point of view of the honest believer watching the honest disbeliever leave, and the opinion that the honest believer will hold about the honest disbeliever (which, at final, is none of the believer's business what the disbeliever does, since we're all human beings and just doing the best that we can).

I'm happy to say that wasn't my experience at all having been brought up in a place with not that many members. I had to think little in that respect.

Is one, then, justified in leaving belief and the Church if one sees fit? Does one have anything to fear in the afterlife? Is there spiritual danger in leaving the Church?

From which of the points of view above?

1--of course not; just made a liberating choice with greater rewards

2--you have your agency and you will have what you create; *you* define spiritual danger, not God or us, once you have the definition then you can know if the LDS God and his Church creation would be of any assistance to you in that; what dangers do you even consider there could be; it's not about the afterlife, it's about your whole life at any time; God will continue to be with you

3--none of their business

A powerful God who will punish you at all for having honestly considered the options

But where do you get this God? He is not in Mormonism.

The LDS God is your Father and cannot be understood without first understanding that.

"The question is whether you think it is correct for God to punish an honest disbeliever or not."

Where do you get this God? He is not in Mormonism. That's why some posters are having a hard time answering this. You are referencing a God they don't subscribe to in the first place.

If you accept the LDS God either in reality or for discussion sake, then he is your Father. This is the foundational element before you can understand anything else. The second element is that you are eternal and have been his child before you came here and you came to earth on purpose for some specific reasons. The concept of THE CHURCH is a secondary concept several times removed from some more foundational ones.

I.e. from point of view 2--my child leaves my church--but he didn't leave off being my child--continues to act as a Father--but YOU are responsible for what you create and if you are satisfied with your creation, what else is there?

I'm looking for something here that is so valuable that justifies going against one's best rational and emotional efforts but I fail.

Okay this is point of view 1. And from that point of view you already made the right decision.

Can you help me see them?

No. Because if there is nothing you want from what the Church offers and from its understanding of what your Father offers, then you haven't lost anything.

Why not go against God's will and plan for you and your family if such option seems incorrect and dishonest to oneself?

You haven't gone against God's will and plan for you if you are in the #1 point of view. You've determined that your best life is elsewhere and you are getting the benefit of that.

By the way, I often tell God he is wrong. I don't think it's a big problem even if you do it within the parameters of believing. I think God welcomes a discussion like that.

But if you have learned for yourself that Mormonism is wrong, you aren't rejecting God's plan are you? On what planet or within what God paradigm does God ask for dishonesty? There isn't one. All Gods that I know about ask for honesty. So that question may not even make sense.

why wouldn't the blessings you have in mind not be achieved if someone and her family move away from Mormonism?

Maybe you are asking if ordinances and covenants are necessary in order to experience personal and family happiness and fulfillment and the full potential of being a human. That's a good question (maybe another thread?). You have to figure that out for yourself. If you figure out that they are necessary, then do them. If you figure out that they aren't, then you are right--there's not a lot of advantage in remainding in a paradigm that asks for them when you can just free yourself and live in love with yourself, your family and your fellow man.

For you, then, if I don't hurt anyone if I leave or stay, can I leave and nothing wrong with it? Is God, according to you, OK with it, too?

Okay, now you are at point of view # 3--only one answer--none of our business. If you are ASKING for our opinion, you'll get 1001 different answers, and then you are going to tell us we're wrong, but that's none of your business what conclusions we've come to, because of point of view #3

Is God "ok" with it (point of view #2), then define "ok". Impossible to answer otherwise. Are you still his child? Yes, he'll keep loving you, blessing you, walking with you. Did he create the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to represent the best of what he could offer his children at this time on this planet while we are working out our purpose here? Yes. And you don't want it? Well, if you gave the best gift you could give someone and they don't want it, then, it's a bit disappointing, yes. Is the atonement real and are ordinances necessary for the full working of it in your life? from the LDS God point of view #2, yes.

But that's all point of view #2, and if you switch to point of view #1 and say, but what if you honestly disagree with it? Disagree with what? As soon as you disagree with it, it doesn't even exist and there's nothing to answer you back. You are at #1 and there is no #2 to say anything about it.

By the way, the main purpose of the plan of salvation is not to "get into heaven and avoid hell". It is to become a savior so that you can rescue other people. It is to become a mother and a father and to bring to pass the eternal life and immortality of your children. Do you even want that? If no, then there may indeed be nothing in the LDS Church for you.

From the point of view of #2 in the LDS God, no one on earth is going to hell. Hell is a false invention from the point of view of #2 (LDS). But do you want that possibility--of being a savior, a father like your Father, who wears out his eternity providing "all that he hath"? If yes, you might want to study more in what is offered. If no, then you are correct in thinking there is nothing here for you, and you should be content with your choice. NO ONE is going to punish you!

(Where do you get that? Not at #2 even AS a believer! Because no LDS believer is thinking of a punishing God, at least not for making a mistake. Perhaps for torturers, enslavers, etc, there will be a punishing justice. But for smoking? Attending another church? Swearing? There's no EXTRA punishment--there's just the consequences of YOUR CHOICES. God is an educator about your choices--not an approver/disapprover [which I used to think he was]. He wants to teach you about YOUR OWN CHOICE. If you think he's got his education wrong, well then. That's YOUR CHOICE, which is what he created you FOR! Yay!)

Do you think it is just that someone who honestly disbelieves and leaves the Church be punished by God?

Where do you get this God? It's not in Mormonism. That's why we're having difficulty answering. And you seem to be insisting that we MUST answer based on this God that none of us even know.

If we can get everything the blessings you mentioned bring in this mortal realm by means secular, then disbelievers don't really have much to lose on this front, do we?

It appears you now have other blessings in mind here for that I didn't go to the temple in the last year won't be fixed by me repenting today. You have in mind blessings of the worlds beyond, I reckon.

You're right. At the level of knowledge you possess about what God your heavenly Father has to offer in the Church, in life, in eternity--you don't have a lot to lose based on what you think are the possibilities you are losing. Because you are seeing you can find those offerings anywhere and everywhere else. And I wouldn't contradict you. If a person wants to live a loving family life, the Church may support that, but I don't know that it's necessary.

So in order to know what other things you could be losing, you are right, you have more to study. I have mentioned a couple above and other posters have mentioned some perhaps--but if they aren't what you want, if they don't speak to you, or you don't think they are real possibilities--then again, you have lost nothing, because you already have an understanding of the universe that is the basis for the choices you are making and the consequences of those choices that you are now enjoying.

Are you happy and satisfied with life for yourself as it is now? If yes, then there is nothing that #2 or #3 can say--you've already become complete as a human and your happiness is with you. I am also happy and satisfied, and at least for now that includes participation in the Church; but I, too, may learn differently in the future and may make a different choice. But I would have to do so after having experience the effect of my covenant on me. So I have my experiences; you have yours. And that is the only thing we can go on in order to make choices. In the LDS God (#2), that process is acknowledged and encouraged, not dismissed or punished.

Right, because a disbeliever can't be honest about discussing topics reasonably. He must always have an ulterior motive like self-gratification or wants to find reasons to sin and not feel bad, or probably realizing deep inside that he is wrong and looks for assurance that leaving the Church will bring no bad consequences. Or he must be reckless and exercise poor judgment. Yeah, that must be it!

No one said that, least of all Lib. She just was gently suggesting that she herself (not you) could be making the wrong decision (gasp! an acknowledgement that we might have it wrong!) and in the case that she may find out in the future that she took a wrong path (i.e. one that led her to somewhere she didn't want to be and/or led her away from something she might have had or something she realizes she wants), she fully expects to be dealt with mercifully and that in the end, there will be nothing she lost but wasted time. She offered this from the point of view of herself in hopes that if it resonated with you also (if you were concerned about whether or not you made the right choice), that in the end, IT'S GONNA BE OK!!

Absolutely NO ONE brought up ulterior motives and etc.

We are fine with your questions. We are answering them. We don't all agree with you, because we are point of view #3. But as you say, that's discussion. As soon as we disagree with you, you seem very emotional like we attacked you. We disagree from the point of view of ourselves and for the sake of the discussion, although on some points we DO agree--but it doesn't mean we are going to swallow your worldview whole from point of view #3. But from point of view #1--it's all good! It's you! You get to choose! That's Mormonism 101! Agency and choice!

And from point of view of #2, you have nothing to fear. "My hand is outstretched still," say the scriptures. So if he doesn't exist, then it's all good. If he does exist, and by some measure of improbability you got it wrong, he's still there waiting and likely has been with you all along walking with you, so again, it's all good.

[changed]

leaving the church is going against the dictates of your own conscience. I know there are those who claim their conscience does not testify to them of God, but I believe that they are lying. Everyone has a conscience, and everyone's conscience testifies of God.

(Bible Dictionary | C Conscience:Entry)

Conscience. The word is not found in the O.T. The chief passage in the N.T. is Rom. 2:14–15. We are born with a natural capacity to distinguish between right and wrong, due to the light of Christ that is given to every person, D&C 84:44–53. We have a faculty by means of which we can pass judgment on our own conduct, either approving or condemning it, so anticipating the divine judgment on it. This faculty is called conscience. The possession of it at once makes us responsible beings. Like other faculties it needs to be trained, and may be deadened through misuse. Bible teaching on the subject may be classified as follows: an accusing, Gen. 3:10; 42:21; 1 Sam. 24:16–22; Prov. 20:27; Matt. 14:2; 27:3; Mark 6:16; Luke 9:7; John 8:9; Acts 24:25; Rom. 2:15; an ill-informed or ill-trained, John 16:2; Acts 8:1, 3; 26:9; Rom. 9:31; 10:2; Gal. 1:14; 4:9–11; Col. 2:16–18; 1 Tim. 1:13; a good, Acts 23:1; 24:16; Rom. 2:15; 9:1; 2 Cor. 1:12; 4:2; 1 Tim. 1:5, 19; 3:9; Heb. 13:18; 1 Pet. 3:16, 21; 1 Jn. 3:21; an evil, 1 Tim. 4:2; Titus 1:15; 1 Jn. 3:22; working of, Rom. 13:5; 14:22; 1 Pet. 2:19; respect for a weak, Rom. 14; 15:1; 1 Cor. 8:7–13; 10:23–33; purification of the, Heb. 9:14; 10:22; 1 Pet. 3:21.

[ERayR]

leaving the church is going against the dictates of your own conscience. I know there are those who claim their conscience does not testify to them of God, but I believe that they are lying. Everyone has a conscience, and everyone's conscience testifies of God.

A bit dogmatic isn't it.

[thesometimesaint]

Where else could I go for the words of Eternal Life are found here.

[changed]

A bit dogmatic isn't it.

I know my own conscience. Before I joined the church I was anti-Christian. I would stop and debate with street preachers, and ridicule brown-nosed goodie two-shoes prudes who were trying to live a moral life - but who I was on the outside was a lie. It was a lie, because all the time I had a conscience, and it told me what was right and what was wrong. I just refused to face and admit what was right because I was insecure, I didn't have the confidence to think I could live up to it, so I bashed and mocked what I saw was out of reach. "Sour grapes", the Aesop's fable about the fox who tries to get some grapes but can't jump high enough to get them, so it says "the grapes are probably sour anyways" and tells others they are no good. To call the grapes sour is to save face, rather than hurt your pride and admit you can't jump high enough.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 10:13)

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man:

I'm not the only person with a conscience, I'm not the only person who pretended (pretends) to be better/happier/smarter/honest/peaceful.

So sorry, but no, I don't believe anyone who puts on a smile, tells me their life is better without the church, and claims that inside they really don't feel compelled to believe in God. I really do believe that everyone has a conscience, and that everyone's conscience testifies of God's reality. (I would never confront someone to their face like this of coarse, but there are certain privileges associated with message boards aren't there? So if you want to know what some, like me, are really thinking, there you go - I see it as a big lie, when someone claims their conscience does not tell them God is real, I see it as a lie, and wonder what part about it they feel insecure about.... sorry, I'm feeling a little feisty today .

(Book of Mormon | Alma 30:52)

52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the apower of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always knew that there was a God.

Korihor isn't the only one who, despite outward appearances and words, always knew there was a God.

Edited February 4, 2013 by changed

[Walden]

I was listening to the podcast posted on the "John Dehlin And Faith Reconstruction" thread and thought, what do people facing faith crises have to fear?

If God is as good as he is said to be, why the fear of leaving the Church or going to where one's best mental efforts take you? If God is good, what do I have to fear if I truly did what I carefully thought was the best? Maybe this idea of God is wrong but I can't imagine a good God that will punish someone who honestly did what they saw as the more honest and better approach to their lives and beliefs, even if that meant disobeying God's commands.

I left the LDS church when I was 24 years old, after spending a lifetime in the church, having been raised in a very devout LDS family and participating in all the typical LDS activities while growing up in the church (baptized at 8, patriarchial blessing at 15, 4 years of seminary, scouting program, temple baptisms, etc, etc.).

For me personally, the struggle to leave was more related to my family and the life that I had known, than it was to my relationship with any god. In considering god's response/reaction, I felt at the time that if god did exist, that he already knew my soul and my thoughts, and was thus already aware that I no longer believed in the LDS faith. I considered that a god who had given me an intellect and a desire to live a life of integrity would not desire that I live a life that was deceitful, which is what I would have to do in order to stay in the LDS faith.

The greatest struggle in leaving the LDS faith was letting down my family and leaving the comforts of an LDS lifestyle in order to search for an authentic path in life. It brings me no pride or comfort to hear my LDS mother crying on the other end of the phone, lamenting and agonizing over the "loss of her eternal family." I receive no peace in having family-members openly express their sorrow and disdain that I have left the LDS faith.

The path forward has been a struggle, but in the end, just like the LDS believers, I cannot deny that which I know is real.

[mfbukowski]

So, again I ask you, "The question is whether you think it is correct for God to punish an honest disbeliever or not."

In fact the answer to this question is one of the reasons I am Mormon.

"Correct" is kind of irrelevant here - I am not sure what that would mean in this context; to be the operative would would be "just".

I think it is pretty clear that it would be unjust for God to punish an honest disbeliever (if indeed there is a "fact of the matter") and since God cannot do an unjust act, God would cease to be God if he did so.

That is, I think the major fly in the ointment for anyone who believes that God sends honest unbelievers or disbelievers to hell.

If you never heard of God (Jesus, etc.) and therefore never had the opportunity (or insert here- "honest opportunity" factoring in your personality, skepticism, etc etc) to believe in God, and were condemned for it, then one could conclude that God is unjust and therefore not god at all.

On the other hand, in Mormonism, the presumption is that at some point in one's progression, one will have an honest opportunity to accept belief, and that indeed, given that opportunity, eventually "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ".

So there is an element of universalism regarding salvation in LDS theology- however we are rewarded according to our works, meaning our propensity to 1- accept belief when offered and 2- serve others and 3-live a righteous life.

So though virtually everyone is "saved" and ends up far better on the other side than any of us deserve, some will be rewarded more than others according to those above factors.

To me, anything else would be unjust. Since this is the only church I am aware that holds these beliefs, that is one of many reasons in fact that I am Mormon.

I have dealt a fair amount with people who want to leave a legacy to their kids- and many, member or non-member, actually hold to these values without perhaps seeing them as religious. They will want all their kids to get "something" to make them better off, but those who really pulled their own weight and did as their parents asked them will often get more than those who were rebellious and have a tendency to squander what they have. It's just human nature to think this way, and since God is human, to project this into the heavens (or have the heavens bequeath to we who are below, this understanding of justice, depending on how you want to look at it) seems natural.

[mfbukowski]

I think it's important to remember that God knows our minds and hearts... if say a Church member honestly loses faith and testimony and subsequently leaves the Church, certainly there are blessings that he/she will be giving up and/or missing out on here... but because the choice was made with honest evaluation or belief even though wrong, I don't think God adds on additional punishment. In fact, seems to me that person will have a chance to repent beyond the veil and before final judgment when the truth will be manifest... I can see a person slapping their forehead and saying... Ohhh, I was wrong... I didn't understand correctly... and they would likely be able to repent because they did honestly misunderstand or misinterpret. If they simply become inactive and their name remained on the rolls, then IMO their ordinances if any would still be in effect and upon repentance before final judgment could be regained. IMO it really does hinge on the true and honest belief of our hearts and minds because that will be what God looks at... and he will look deep into us.

IMO if a person does not repent upon seeing and understanding the full truth, then they will be judged accordingly and consequences will be just.

Of course, this is my personal opinion...

GG

Yep.

What she said! This is the exact point I am also making.

[rodheadlee]

I know my own conscience. Before I joined the church I was anti-Christian. I would stop and debate with street preachers, and ridicule brown-nosed goodie two-shoes prudes who were trying to live a moral life - but who I was on the outside was a lie. It was a lie, because all the time I had a conscience, and it told me what was right and what was wrong. I just refused to face and admit what was right because I was insecure, I didn't have the confidence to think I could live up to it, so I bashed and mocked what I saw was out of reach. "Sour grapes", the Aesop's fable about the fox who tries to get some grapes but can't jump high enough to get them, so it says "the grapes are probably sour anyways" and tells others they are no good. To call the grapes sour is to save face, rather than hurt your pride and admit you can't jump high enough.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 10:13)

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man:

I'm not the only person with a conscience, I'm not the only person who pretended (pretends) to be better/happier/smarter/honest/peaceful.

So sorry, but no, I don't believe anyone who puts on a smile, tells me their life is better without the church, and claims that inside they really don't feel compelled to believe in God. I really do believe that everyone has a conscience, and that everyone's conscience testifies of God's reality. (I would never confront someone to their face like this of coarse, but there are certain privileges associated with message boards aren't there? So if you want to know what some, like me, are really thinking, there you go - I see it as a big lie, when someone claims their conscience does not tell them God is real, I see it as a lie, and wonder what part about it they feel insecure about.... sorry, I'm feeling a little feisty today .

(Book of Mormon | Alma 30:52)

52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the apower of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always knew that there was a God.

Korihor isn't the only one who, despite outward appearances and words, always knew there was a God.

Excellent post, Thanks!

[mfbukowski]

Alvino, you almost sound like you are looking for assurance that leaving the church will have no consequences. Perhaps, there won't be consequences (I truly don't know)...no one (except God) can really know.

Yep, that's the bottom line.

You have to stand up in life and live according to your beliefs and quit worrying about unforseen consequences. You will get to deal with those soon enough either way- if you worry about them or if you don't worry about them!

[Damien the Leper]

In my experience, the social consequences weighed the heaviest. I lost quite a few friends and some family along the way. But I don't regret my decision. My leaving the LDS church had less to do with the LDS theology, doctrine and history than it did my own issues.

There was fear involved because the LDS faith was all I had ever known as a spiritual home. But like all lifelong norms we are raised with, fear will always be involved in the deviation. But the fear makes the situation more real.

[CV75]

For me personally, the struggle to leave was more related to my family and the life that I had known, than it was to my relationship with any god. In considering god's response/reaction, I felt at the time that if god did exist, that he already knew my soul and my thoughts, and was thus already aware that I no longer believed in the LDS faith. I considered that a god who had given me an intellect and a desire to live a life of integrity would not desire that I live a life that was deceitful, which is what I would have to do in order to stay in the LDS faith.

A couple of questions:

Since the struggle to leave was related to your family and the life you knew, was the reason for leaving also related to your family and the life you knew?

The phrase “my relationship with any god” indicates that you left after concluding that there is no god with whom to relate. Was this conclusion drawn from your relationship with your family and the life you knew?

Why did it mater what a hypothetical god desired? Was this a way to explain your actions to those who believe in a real one? Was it a way to tap into your innermost motivation?

[mfbukowski]

Alvino, it seems that you are asking the question from several different viewpoints, but when a person answers from one of the viewpoints, you change and say, no not THAT viewpoint, the OTHER one. These are the viewpoints I got out of your question so far--maybe you can tell me which one you want the most? or from all? or if there is another viewpoint I'm missing?

Dang what a great post! I didn't quote it fully because it is long- but great post!

[Walden]

A couple of questions:

Since the struggle to leave was related to your family and the life you knew, was the reason for leaving also related to your family and the life you knew?

The phrase “my relationship with any god” indicates that you left after concluding that there is no god with whom to relate. Was this conclusion drawn from your relationship with your family and the life you knew?

Why did it mater what a hypothetical god desired? Was this a way to explain your actions to those who believe in a real one? Was it a way to tap into your innermost motivation?

Since the struggle to leave was related to your family and the life you knew, was the reason for leaving also related to your family and the life you knew? My reason for leaving had nothing to do with my family. The single biggest factor in me leaving the church was simply the failure to obtain the fruits of Moroni's Promise; despite years of working on a testimony and pleading with the lord for some type of knowledge that the LDS church is true, I never received a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon or the LDS faith.

The phrase “my relationship with any god” indicates that you left after concluding that there is no god with whom to relate. Was this conclusion drawn from your relationship with your family and the life you knew? Actually, I left the LDS faith still believing that there was a god; at the time, I believed that the LDS god was just the incorrect interpretation of who god actually was/is. I lost my faith in god a few years after leaving the LDS church and examining other faiths and belief systems. My atheism was not the result of relationships with my family; it is rooted in my inability to find any evidence (either spiritual or otherwise) or need for god.

Why did it mater what a hypothetical god desired? Was this a way to explain your actions to those who believe in a real one? Was it a way to tap into your innermost motivation? Like I said, at the time I left the faith, I did believe in god, just not the LDS version. My cluncky verbiage is a result of trying to communicate how I felt then versus how I feel now. My innermost motivation is to live an authentic life of integrity.

[Alvino]

I gave you two events...one from the old testament and one from the new testament. Where is the human understanding of good in those two events? Was god showing his goodness by striking dead the couple who cheated on their tithe? And did god show is goodness when he drowned many soldiers in the red sea? So, what does God is good mean?

whyme, I'm trying to speak to your understanding of a good God and to show you that as far as we can see (i.e. as far as human understanding goes) a God who will withhold "blessings" to honest disbelievers when he can give them is not a good God because there is nothing reprehensible about leaving the Church as an honest disbeliever. To show that to you (and then you can see whether I'm wrong) all I need is any old working definition of "good God" you have. I want to speak to YOU so we'll use what YOUR working definition of good God.

And, again, we want to see where reason takes us even if at the end of the day you say there is something beyond that which we can't understand or can't know yet.

[Alvino]

For example, when I confronted you on your god is good claim, you failed to engage me with dialogue and just blew it off as you just did with Libs. And yet, you lecture us.

No, I said any working definition you have is fine.

[CV75]

Since the struggle to leave was related to your family and the life you knew, was the reason for leaving also related to your family and the life you knew? My reason for leaving had nothing to do with my family. The single biggest factor in me leaving the church was simply the failure to obtain the fruits of Moroni's Promise; despite years of working on a testimony and pleading with the lord for some type of knowledge that the LDS church is true, I never received a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon or the LDS faith.

The phrase “my relationship with any god” indicates that you left after concluding that there is no god with whom to relate. Was this conclusion drawn from your relationship with your family and the life you knew? Actually, I left the LDS faith still believing that there was a god; at the time, I believed that the LDS god was just the incorrect interpretation of who god actually was/is. I lost my faith in god a few years after leaving the LDS church and examining other faiths and belief systems. My atheism was not the result of relationships with my family; it is rooted in my inability to find any evidence (either spiritual or otherwise) or need for god.

Why did it mater what a hypothetical god desired? Was this a way to explain your actions to those who believe in a real one? Was it a way to tap into your innermost motivation? Like I said, at the time I left the faith, I did believe in god, just not the LDS version. My cluncky verbiage is a result of trying to communicate how I felt then versus how I feel now. My innermost motivation is to live an authentic life of integrity.

Thank you clarifying that your views were not based in family relationships. And it doesn’t make sense to me, either, that one would (or could) act in religious faith, hope or good will in relation to the LDS Church without a spiritual witness of it, or that he would believe in God when unable to find supporting spiritual evidence or a need to do so.

What was the basis for your belief in a god during those years you believed in one (just not the LDS version)?

Also, what are the authenticity and integrity tied to, or what standard do you use to evaluate your authenticity and integrity? As I mentioned in previous posts, I think D&C 88 is one model for how this works.

[Alvino]

It is only natural that some learn this lesson later than others: “…they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.” (D&C 88:32, 33).

No one ever needs to fear that God does not love them, or that He will not give them all they could ever want in righteousness, including “that which they are willing to receive.” Probably more close to home is that no ever needs needs to fear that anyone else does not love them, either. This is the courage and integrity of conviction, as unwise as the conviction may be.

There's an ambiguity in there, isn't there? If by "not willing to enjoy that which they might have received" it means that we recognized the truth of Mormonism but refused it for, say, having been offended by another member of the Church or finding that these true doctrines are too hard for our habits, then that's not really what an honest disbeliever is and this verse doesn't address the issue. It can also mean, however, honest disbelievers that think that Mormonism is false after having believed, so then these might not be willing to enjoy what they think is not going to happen or what is based in falsity. Although this last interpretation may include some honest disbelievers it is not exhaustive for there are still those who don't believe Mormonism is true yet are willing to enjoy that which they might have received if it were true.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Alvino

[Alvino]

Justified by himself;

What about in the eyes of God?

at a minimum, he has to fear only himself in the afterlife; yes, there is spiritual danger in leaving the Church, but try telling him that once he has decided there is none.

What spiritual dangers? Please be as explicit as possible.