Scott Lloyd Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 Consider this for a moment. Which is a better role model for LDS youth in scouting:A man who lives with his girlfriend out of wedlock and has had children by her.ORA self identified gay man who is celibate and is a worthy temple recommend holder.Um, the second. (I like those easy ones.) 1
Saints Alive Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 You are naive. Where there is a will there is a way.with a pedophile yes, but homosexual =/= pedophile. I think there is adequate moral grounds to prevent gays from being involved with scouts but I don't think fear of molestation is one of them.
Calm Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 And some men find young women attractive. It is likewise for homosexual men, to find young men attractiveOnly some heterosexuals find young women attractive, but all homosexual men find young men attractive (in the sense they want to have sex with them or some other abuse)?
california boy Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 Only some heterosexuals find young women attractive, but all homosexual men find young men attractive (in the sense they want to have sex with them or some other abuse)?What are you talking about? All homosexuals find young men attractive and want to have sex with them??? Big CFR on that statement.
Damien the Leper Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) Nevermind. Edited January 31, 2013 by Valentinus
gkearney Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 Only some heterosexuals find young women attractive, but all homosexual men find young men attractive (in the sense they want to have sex with them or some other abuse)?Care to provide a source for this rather sweeping statement?
halconero Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) Everyone, there is a question mark at the end of Calmoriah's post. It's a question, not a statement, and I don't think she actually believes that. Edited January 31, 2013 by halconero
Tacenda Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 I have a hard time believing this is what she meant.
Damien the Leper Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 Everyone, there is a question mark at the end of Calmoriah's post. It's a question, not a statement, and I don't think she actually believes that.Good call. Sorry Calmoriah!
ERayR Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) with a pedophile yes, but homosexual =/= pedophile.Didn't say it did nor did I mean to insinuate that it did.I think there is adequate moral grounds to prevent gays from being involved with scouts but I don't think fear of molestation is one of them. Edited January 31, 2013 by ERayR
california boy Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 Everyone, there is a question mark at the end of Calmoriah's post. It's a question, not a statement, and I don't think she actually believes that.That does make me feel a little better. But quite frankly I find even the question to be pretty appalling.
Calm Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) What are you talking about? All homosexuals find young men attractive and want to have sex with them??? Big CFR on that statement.Questing Beast is stating this in his comments that I quoted, I am asking him for clarification if this is really what he meant....I see that halcerno caught the question mark. Sorry for not being more clear. I had already challenged him on this global type of statement earlier so I assumed people would understand but totally get how easy it is too lose track of what a particular poster has said. Edited January 31, 2013 by calmoriah 2
Calm Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) That does make me feel a little better. But quite frankly I find even the question to be pretty appalling.This is Questing Beast's entire post that I felt the need to clarify first so I could challenge him on it if I had read him right on it, as I did previously on something that was more obvious, I will bold what I quoted in the second post and what I responded to in the first post so you can see my reasoning (I hope):Still hardly the same thing as scouting, out in the boonies with little or no separation between quarters. A recipe for abuse if the adult leaders have a mind to. And conflating this with pedophilia is just wrong-headed, because there is a point where a young woman is, well, a woman and not a child anymore, regardless of the age. And some men find young women attractive. It is likewise for homosexual men, to find young men attractive, so you surely would be stupid to put a homosexual man in charge of boy scouts. If you don't know the man in question is homosexual, then that isn't a problem is it? Because he obviously keeps his inclinations to himself and on a short leash, just like anyone has to do with biological desires....This was his previous comment I responded to: Now, it is just daft to make a policy allowing men to mentor young, pubescent girls in some "scouting" program. I don't see this issue as any different whatsoever. When it is known that a man has a thing for boys his sexual orientation is just as tempting and fraught with possible consequences as when we allow men to shower with girls, etc. What is so hard to understand about any of this? It's as flat as a pancake, to quote the man himself....My response: Homosexual attraction doesn't equate into "a thing for boys" anymore than heterosexual attraction equates into a "thing for girls".Making generic, global accusations are not the way to go about attempting to prevent abuse. Realistic use of actual data about specifics will be much more successful in meeting needs.I thought it was problematic that even if he stated in the second post that only some heterosexual men find young women attractive, he still wrote it as all homosexual men having a thing for boys and I wrote the wanting to have sex condition to make it explicit we were not just talking about seeing young women or young men as beautiful or handsome (which anyone can do without any sexual desire attached, kind of like a work of art ). Edited January 31, 2013 by calmoriah 1
Damien the Leper Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 Okay, now I see that you're talking about the term "Christian", but I was and am talking about people who were actuallly Christian whether or not they were or are called by the term "Christian".You're talking about the Jesus Followers of the Jesus Movement that is derived out of Judaism...got it. Thank you for clearing that up.Yes, they had that understanding among them as a collective people at one time in their history, but at another time (actually several other times and spanning centuries) they had an understanding that he would suffer and die for their sins. That understanding was given to them by God through his prophets, even though they rejected that understanding and those teachings that would have led them more perfectly to that understanding. Keep in mind that when you say "Jews" that includes all of the people who came to the American continent with Lehi and Nephi and Laban, as recorded in the Book of Mormon. They were all Jews, and they all had that understanding whether or not they accepted it.When I have read the narrative of the early people of the Book of Mormon, and even the later people, the worldview presented does seem very much as that of a Christian one. There are very defining differences between the Book of Mormon characters compared to those found in the Hebrew Bible.The fact that you may not go that far doesn't mean he wasn't the person who was being referred to. You now have the understanding that he was that person, because I just gave you that understanding, whether or not you accept that idea.I understand the reasoning why Jesus is presented, from a Christian perspective, as the person being mentioned in Isaiah 53. What understanding did you give me?I don't think you can see how much you are presuming, and I've only touched on the tip of the iceberg.Enlighten me then. I'm dealing specifically with the text and known theological understandings and beliefs. What are you dealing with?
Questing Beast Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 with a pedophile yes, but homosexual =/= pedophile.I think there is adequate moral grounds to prevent gays from being involved with scouts but I don't think fear of molestation is one of them."Recruiting" is a very reasonable fear for parents and other leaders of the youth. The very public focus on sexuality draws unspoken attention to the "gay" Scouting leader, s/he doesn't have to say a thing. Curiosity about sex in the youth will do all the work of "investigation" for them. Any with proclivities toward same-sex attraction will naturally be drawn to a "sexy" Scout leader. That's the danger that BSA has avoided strenuously for years....
Questing Beast Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 Only some heterosexuals find young women attractive, but all homosexual men find young men attractive (in the sense they want to have sex with them or some other abuse)?Typically all men find the objects of their sexual attractions more attractive young rather than mature (look at Joseph Smith and Mormon polygamy, and its successors the FLDS "brand" of the same thing, almost all of the new wives are young, and some of them very young). I am not talking about being attracted to children, which I think is a rare aberration.... 1
Damien the Leper Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 Typically all men find the objects of their sexual attractions more attractive young rather than mature (look at Joseph Smith and Mormon polygamy, and its successors the FLDS "brand" of the same thing, almost all of the new wives are young, and some of them very young). I am not talking about being attracted to children, which I think is a rare aberration....Thanks for clearing that up, QB.
Saints Alive Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 "Recruiting" is a very reasonable fear for parents and other leaders of the youth. The very public focus on sexuality draws unspoken attention to the "gay" Scouting leader, s/he doesn't have to say a thing. Curiosity about sex in the youth will do all the work of "investigation" for them. Any with proclivities toward same-sex attraction will naturally be drawn to a "sexy" Scout leader. That's the danger that BSA has avoided strenuously for years....You do realize that the BSA allows female leaders. Beside that, I don't think gay people are only attracted to other gay people. So if there were a youth questioning his/her sexuality he would be equally as likely to find his/her adult leader attractive regardless of the leaders sexual preference. So I'm going to have to disagree that "recruiting" is a reasonable fear. Unless you are afraid you gay child might find an adult that is supportive instead of condemning.
go_utes01 Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 You do realize that the BSA allows female leaders. Beside that, I don't think gay people are only attracted to other gay people. So if there were a youth questioning his/her sexuality he would be equally as likely to find his/her adult leader attractive regardless of the leaders sexual preference.So I'm going to have to disagree that "recruiting" is a reasonable fear. Unless you are afraid you gay child might find an adult that is supportive instead of condemning.If you change your quote from supporting to encouraging, then yes I would have a problem with that. I don't think anybody is calling for the condemnation of homosexuals in this thread, that seems a bit of a strawman to me. Understanding/empathizing while teaching correct (at least as the BSA and the Church sees it) moral principles (a Scout makes an oath to remain morally straight) is much different than condemning.
Ahab Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 You're talking about the Jesus Followers of the Jesus Movement that is derived out of Judaism...got it. Thank you for clearing that up.I'm not sure what you mean by the use of those capital letters. I'm talking about how Jesus/Jehovah who the Jews and earlier Israelites worshipped as God and I'm saying that many of them knew and were taught that Jesus/Jehovah had a Father. The fact that some Israelites and Jews later apostasized and rejected those teachings doesn't mean their ancestors did, though.When I have read the narrative of the early people of the Book of Mormon, and even the later people, the worldview presented does seem very much as that of a Christian one. There are very defining differences between the Book of Mormon characters compared to those found in the Hebrew Bible.It may not seem that way to you but that's what you're actually seeing represented. It's very clear that those Jews/Israelites worshipped a Christ while knowing he was coming. It can't get much clearer than that is shown in the Book of Mormon.I understand the reasoning why Jesus is presented, from a Christian perspective, as the person being mentioned in Isaiah 53. What understanding did you give me?It may not have been new to you but that was the understanding I shared with you.Enlighten me then. I'm dealing specifically with the text and known theological understandings and beliefs. What are you dealing with?Everything I know, which is a heck of a lot more than you know on these issues.
Saints Alive Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 If you change your quote from supporting to encouraging, then yes I would have a problem with that. I don't think anybody is calling for the condemnation of homosexuals in this thread, that seems a bit of a strawman to me. Understanding/empathizing while teaching correct (at least as the BSA and the Church sees it) moral principles (a Scout makes an oath to remain morally straight) is much different than condemning.I don't think a gay scout leader would necessarily encourage anyone to be gay unless that scout came to him/her and told him that he thought he was.
go_utes01 Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) I don't think a gay scout leader would necessarily encourage anyone to be gay unless that scout came to him/her and told him that he thought he was.I think that would still be inappropriate. How about encouraging the scout to speak with his parents? Edited January 31, 2013 by go_utes01
Bernard Gui Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) You do realize that the BSA allows female leaders.But the LDS Church does not. Girl Scouts do allow male leaders as long as there are female leaders present also.Would SSA male or female leaders be appropriate for opposite sex groups, i.e., a male with SSA leading a girls' groupwithout female leaders present? Edited January 31, 2013 by Bernard Gui
Saints Alive Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 How about encouraging the scout to speak with his parents?That would probably be the best course of action. Current BSA policy dictates that all questions about sex/sexuality/reproduction be directed to the parents anyway. Back to my original point, I don't think Gay scout leaders are going to turn straight boys gay anymore than a straight man can turn a gay boy straight. On principal I do agree with current BSA policy though.
Saints Alive Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 But the LDS Church does not. Girl Scouts do allow male leaders as long as there are female leaders present also.Would SSA male or female leaders be appropriate for opposite sex groups, i.e., a male with SSA leading a girls' groupwithout female leaders present?No.
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