Bsa Considering Ending Ban On Homosexuals

[california boy]

I don't find SSA all that confusing. Nor have I noticed a marked or intentional move on the part of the Church to avoid its use.

I am not surprised that you don't find it confusing. You have been hearing that term used by the church for some time. Certainly within the gay community if you told someone you had SSA, they would have no idea what you were talking about. The church is making an effort to talk to that community. I think that is why the church is dropping that term when communicating to those outside the church. Hence the new web site created by the church is http://www.mormonsandgays.org/ not mormonsandssa. If you actually look at the web site, you will not find a reference to SSA anywhere on the site.

[Damien the Leper]

Popular etymology notwithstanding, the sin of Sodom was not primarly homosexuality, but hatred, betrayal, and rape. http://books.google....er jail&f=false

Be one's stance on homosexuality as it may, I feel that before prooftexting we ough to look for the intended meaning of the scriptural passage. Reading this one as a mere indictment of homosexuality misses what the text is really trying to say, and its broader application.

I addressed this, Volg. Here and here.

[Scott Lloyd]

I am not surprised that you don't find it confusing. You have been hearing that term used by the church for some time. Certainly within the gay community if you told someone you had SSA, they would have no idea what you were talking about.

The initials without explanation might be confusing to some; many initials are. (The frequent use of unclear initials and acronyms is one of the pet peeves I have about Internet discourse). But if you say it out, "same-sex attraction," I don't get what's confusing about it.

[rongo]

I am not surprised that you don't find it confusing. You have been hearing that term used by the church for some time. Certainly within the gay community if you told someone you had SSA, they would have no idea what you were talking about.

In online discussions in my local area (some pretty spirited ones), nobody I have interacted with is confused at all by what I mean by "same-sex attraction." Not at all (by way of distinguishing between sexually active and SSA-only individuals).

Within the gay community, is your term "gay-but-celibate" preferred? Do people within this community distinguish at all between those who are attracted and those who act on it?

[Scott Lloyd]

In online discussions in my local area (some pretty spirited ones), nobody I have interacted with is confused at all by what I mean by "same-sex attraction." Not at all (by way of distinguishing between sexually active and SSA-only individuals).

Within the gay community, is your term "gay-but-celibate" preferred? Do people within this community distinguish at all between those who are attracted and those who act on it?

This is actually the first time I have encountered the term "gay-but-celibate".

[Buckeye]

Hence the new web site created by the church is http://www.mormonsan...dgays.org/��not mormonsandssa. If you actually look at the web site, you will not find a reference to SSA anywhere on the site.

Um, the website I see has dozens of references to "same-sex attraction", including in the page header. I get the sense that the church is starting to use the word "gay", and I think that's an improvement, but SSA is still the dominent phrase used in communicating with members of the church.

FWIW, I believe the URL "mormonsandgays" is not so much a reflection of an intent to use the word "gay" as it is an attempt to bump this page up the search results. People find information by search engines and they typcially type "mormons and gays" or "mormons and polygamy", etc. That is why the church purchased those sites years ago and is starting to use them now.

[Scott Lloyd]

Um, the website I see has dozens of references to "same-sex attraction", including in the page header. I get the sense that the church is starting to use the word "gay", and I think that's an improvement, but SSA is still the dominent phrase used in communicating with members of the church.

FWIW, I believe the URL "mormonsandgays" is not so much a reflection of an intent to use the word "gay" as it is an attempt to bump this page up the search results. People find information by search engines and they typcially type "mormons and gays" or "mormons and polygamy", etc. That is why the church purchased those sites years ago and is starting to use them now.

Indeed. As an employee of a Church-owned media enterprise, I know that the Church is very much aware of what is called "search-engine optimization" and functions accordingly.

That is why -- and perhaps the only reason -- the term "Mormon Church" is on some Church websites, even though the Church still prefers that the full name of the Church or the shortened form Church of Jesus Christ be used.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[rongo]

This is actually the first time I have encountered the term "gay-but-celibate".

Yeah. I kind of think that wouldn't go over very well in the "gay" community, where "gay" can only mean one thing. I'm interested to hear california boy's thoughts on that.

I think SSA is a uniquely-Mormon expression, but one that is easily understood ---- even when people disagree with the premise that one can be "gay" but choose not to act on it.

[Scott Lloyd]

I think SSA is a uniquely-Mormon expression, ...

I'd challenge that assumption. Here, for example, is a Lutheran website that uses it freely.

[rongo]

I wonder where it originated? Or if that can even be determined?

[Scott Lloyd]

I wonder where it originated? Or if that can even be determined?

Don't know off hand, but here's another instance of its usage, this time from a Catholic source:

I’m not very sensitive about the word “gay”, but some of us in the Gay Catholic business prefer the phrase “same-sex attraction,” or SSA. I find it more accurate than “gay” or “queer” or any of the others, just because it suggests that homosexuality is something I have rather than something I am. That’s the way I think of it. So the idea of gay culture, gay rights, gay marriage, gay anything really, is foreign to me. You might as well talk about gluten-intolerance culture, or musician’s rights.

[volgadon]

I addressed this, Volg. Here and here.

I'm still waiting for a good response to your Ezekiel question.

[kibbitt2]

Expect the church to ensure they do not put gay leaders in leadership positions in their chartered scout units

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm still waiting for a good response to your Ezekiel question.

I'll take a stab at it.

I don't see how the things mentioned in Ezekiel 16:49 preclude sexual sin, especially considering verse 50, which refers to "abomination" and cross-references to Jeremiah 23:14, which mentions adultery in the context of Sodom and Gomorrah.

But I'm not prepared for a scholarly discussion on Old Testament text, nor do I wish to derail this thread with one.

[california boy]

In online discussions in my local area (some pretty spirited ones), nobody I have interacted with is confused at all by what I mean by "same-sex attraction." Not at all (by way of distinguishing between sexually active and SSA-only individuals).

Within the gay community, is your term "gay-but-celibate" preferred? Do people within this community distinguish at all between those who are attracted and those who act on it?

The gay community does not sexualize the term "gay" at all. It seems to be more something the religious community does. Whether you are celibate or not is not any more important than single people in the straight world. When you meet another person, you don't really say "Hi, I am gay but celibate." or "Hi I am gay, but love sex." I don't think people do that in the straight world either. Kinda sounds ridiculous don't you think?

Yes I do know men who are still virgins. They still consider themselves gay. The act of sex is not what makes a person gay or straight. Most people know whether they are gay or straight long before they ever have sex. The gay community and the straight community are pretty much the same. The only difference is who the attraction is oriented towards.

And yes, if you want to know someone's sexual status, gay but celibate is much more preferred than same sex attraction. Most gay people outside of some religious communities have never heard the term same sex attraction. They would probably start laughing and say "What the heck is same sex attraction?"

[california boy]

Um, the website I see has dozens of references to "same-sex attraction", including in the page header. I get the sense that the church is starting to use the word "gay", and I think that's an improvement, but SSA is still the dominent phrase used in communicating with members of the church.

FWIW, I believe the URL "mormonsandgays" is not so much a reflection of an intent to use the word "gay" as it is an attempt to bump this page up the search results. People find information by search engines and they typcially type "mormons and gays" or "mormons and polygamy", etc. That is why the church purchased those sites years ago and is starting to use them now.

You are right about same sex attraction usage. Sorry I was wrong. Thanks for correcting my error.

I agree with you that the church is using the term gay in the url to boost search engine responses. This actually reinforces the exact point I am making. When you have a web site talking about gay issues, same sex attraction is not really a search engine term that many would use to find the web site easily.

[mapman]

My dictionary defines "gay" this way: "of, pertaining to, or exhibiting sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one'sown sex; homosexual." The way I've always heard it used is to refer to sexual orientation, not sexual activity, so I don't think using the word "gay" to refer to someone who is homosexual and celibate is all that confusing.

The BSA said this this year:

"The BSA policy is: “While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA. Scouting believes same-sex attraction should be introduced and discussed outside of its program with parents, caregivers, or spiritual advisers, at the appropriate time and in the right setting. The vast majority of parents we serve value this right and do not sign their children up for Scouting for it to introduce or discuss, in any way, these topics. The BSA is a voluntary, private organization that sets policies that are best for the organization. The BSA welcomes all who share its beliefs but does not criticize or condemn those who wish to follow a different path."" (source)

So it seems that even if you are celibate, if you are openly homosexual you are not allowed to join, though they haven't been entirely clear on that.

[Scott Lloyd]

When you have a web site talking about gay issues, same sex attraction is not really a search engine term that many would use to find the web site easily.

Do you mean gay people or people in general?

[Ahab]

The gay community does not sexualize the term "gay" at all. It seems to be more something the religious community does. Whether you are celibate or not is not any more important than single people in the straight world. When you meet another person, you don't really say "Hi, I am gay but celibate." or "Hi I am gay, but love sex." I don't think people do that in the straight world either. Kinda sounds ridiculous don't you think?

Yes I do know men who are still virgins. They still consider themselves gay. The act of sex is not what makes a person gay or straight. Most people know whether they are gay or straight long before they ever have sex. The gay community and the straight community are pretty much the same. The only difference is who the attraction is oriented towards.

And yes, if you want to know someone's sexual status, gay but celibate is much more preferred than same sex attraction. Most gay people outside of some religious communities have never heard the term same sex attraction. They would probably start laughing and say "What the heck is same sex attraction?"

Same sex attraction means exactly what it sounds like. It's an attraction to someone of the same sex. I'm both, the way I figure, because I'm attracted to both men and women, if I find the person's character and appearance attractive. What would you call someone like me, based on that information I just gave you? Am I both gay and "straight", in your opinion? Does it matter to you whether or not I have ever had sexual relations with someone of the same sex that I am? If it does, then to save time I'll go ahead and tell you I have had sexual relations with people of both sexes in the past, although I'm currently married to someone of the opposite sex now and have remained chaste with her while we have been married. Now what would you call someone like me, based on what I've told you? I consider myself to be straight right now, although I'm still sometimes attracted to someone of the same sex. And it may also interest you to know that I consider sexual relations with someone of the same sex to be an evil act, and I'll flat out tell anyone that it's evil while telling people they should avoid acting on those impulses if they have them. Edited January 29, 2013 by Ahab

[Scott Lloyd]

My dictionary defines "gay" this way: "of, pertaining to, or exhibiting sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one'sown sex; homosexual." The way I've always heard it used is to refer to sexual orientation, not sexual activity, so I don't think using the word "gay" to refer to someone who is homosexual and celibate is all that confusing.

The BSA said this this year:

"The BSA policy is: “While the BSA does not proactively inquire about the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of the BSA. Scouting believes same-sex attraction should be introduced and discussed outside of its program with parents, caregivers, or spiritual advisers, at the appropriate time and in the right setting. The vast majority of parents we serve value this right and do not sign their children up for Scouting for it to introduce or discuss, in any way, these topics. The BSA is a voluntary, private organization that sets policies that are best for the organization. The BSA welcomes all who share its beliefs but does not criticize or condemn those who wish to follow a different path."" (source)

So it seems that even if you are celibate, if you are openly homosexual you are not allowed to join, though they haven't been entirely clear on that.

It could be reasonably argued that the descriptor "open or avowed" clearly implies practice or behavior.

But you're right in saying it does not explicitly state that.

Edited to add:

If the policy states that the "BSA does not proactively inquire" about sexual orientation, I think it would be safe to assume that a gay person could join who does not act on his proclivities.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Hamba Tuhan]

Now what would you call someone like me, based on what I've told you?

I know this question wasn't addressed to me, but I'd call you completely normal. Sexual attraction as a fixed identity was a late nineteenth-century construction in the West which has -- in large part due to its aggressive and intentional normalisation by the American entertainment industry -- been spreading throughout the world, but most people for most of the world's history would find it completely alien.

[rockpond]

I know this question wasn't addressed to me, but I'd call you completely normal. Sexual attraction as a fixed identity was a late nineteenth-century construction in the West which has -- in large part due to its aggressive and intentional normalisation by the American entertainment industry -- been spreading throughout the world, but most people for most of the world's history would find it completely alien.

So we have Hollywood to blame for the fact that people don't meander back and forth throughout their lives from heterosexual orientation to homosexual orientation and back? Hmmm.

And you have a reference (or two) to support the conclusion that prior to the 20th century most of people in the world did not identify with a single sexual orientation?

[Ahab]

I know this question wasn't addressed to me, but I'd call you completely normal. Sexual attraction as a fixed identity was a late nineteenth-century construction in the West which has -- in large part due to its aggressive and intentional normalisation by the American entertainment industry -- been spreading throughout the world, but most people for most of the world's history would find it completely alien.

I agree, but I've rarely had someone other than God tell me how my sexual attractions are normal.

But why should it be thought a strange thing for someone to find someone else atractive, even if they are of the same sex? Why can't everyone just acknowledge that both men and women are attractive, at least to some people? Women find some men atttractive, so why shouldn't other men also be able to see how those men are attractive, at least to those women? We're not all attracted to the same things in people, but I think we should be able to at least understand how people can find other people to be attractive whether or not they are of the same sex. I've noticed women seem to have an easier time doing this than men do, in general.

Maybe the "fear" issue in regards to homosexuality needs to be looked at a little more in depth. Not that we should all be having sex with each other when we're of the same sex, but we should at least be able to understand and acknowledge some attraction.

[california boy]

Do you mean gay people or people in general?

I mean both if you want to separate them into two groups

[california boy]

Same sex attraction means exactly what it sounds like. It's an attraction to someone of the same sex. I'm both, the way I figure, because I'm attracted to both men and women, if I find the person's character and appearance attractive. What would you call someone like me, based on that information I just gave you? Am I both gay and "straight", in your opinion? Does it matter to you whether or not I have ever had sexual relations with someone of the same sex that I am? If it does, then to save time I'll go ahead and tell you I have had sexual relations with people of both sexes in the past, although I'm currently married to someone of the opposite sex now and have remained chaste with her while we have been married. Now what would you call someone like me, based on what I've told you? I consider myself to be straight right now, although I'm still sometimes attracted to someone of the same sex. And it may also interest you to know that I consider sexual relations with someone of the same sex to be an evil act, and I'll flat out tell anyone that it's evil while telling people they should avoid acting on those impulses if they have them.

I don't really think it is up to me to apply a label to you. But in general, someone who is romantically attracted to both sexes is usually refereed to as bisexual. Attraction to both sexes simply by a persons character or appearance has no relivance to a persons orientation. Whether someone considers sex with the same gender evil or not is irrelevant to their orientation.