Bsa Considering Ending Ban On Homosexuals

[Questing Beast]

You do realize that the BSA allows female leaders. Beside that, I don't think gay people are only attracted to other gay people. So if there were a youth questioning his/her sexuality he would be equally as likely to find his/her adult leader attractive regardless of the leaders sexual preference.

So I'm going to have to disagree that "recruiting" is a reasonable fear. Unless you are afraid you gay child might find an adult that is supportive instead of condemning.

Female leaders for prepubescent boys, yes, not young men, Cub Scouts. This is not a topic about pedophilia, it is about same gender attraction, which can easily enough begin with very young men and women, without being in any way a pedophilia issue.

A BSA leader that is supportive of a Boy Scout following his sexual inclinations is already in trouble, simply because he's engaged in a topic of conversation that the BSA would condemn as outside the purview and mission of Scouting. And if that leader was himself a homosexual in outlook that would be seen as doubly condemnable....

[Saints Alive]

Female leaders for prepubescent boys, yes, not young men, Cub Scouts. This is not a topic about pedophilia, it is about same gender attraction, which can easily enough begin with very young men and women, without being in any way a pedophilia issue.

The BSA allows female leaders in all levels of scouting, the church OTHO does not. Your point?

A BSA leader that is supportive of a Boy Scout following his sexual inclinations is already in trouble, simply because he's engaged in a topic of conversation that the BSA would condemn as outside the purview and mission of Scouting. And if that leader was himself a homosexual in outlook that would be seen as doubly condemnable....

see post #274 Edited January 31, 2013 by Saints Alive

[altersteve]

Their decision is about allowing openly gay people who are not morally clean to be a part of their organization. That is wrong.

Sorry, but openly gay does not automatically mean "not morally clean." You can be open and honest about your sexual orientation and still remain celibate. I'm openly straight, for example, but I intend to remain celibate (until I get married, of course). Why the apparent double standard?

[altersteve]

And, to add my own opinion to the discussion, I strongly support the change. I stopped going to scouts when I was about 15 (a decision I now regret) but I think the Boy Scouts of America is a very good organization whose benefits to society and young people nationwide should not be so limited to just straight boys.

[Calm]

Sorry, but openly gay does not automatically mean "not morally clean."

He may mean (and I cannot honestly tell because his past posts don't give enough direction) that the two conditions (being both gay and immoral) are the type of individual he is talking about, not that one (being openly gay) is the same thing as being immoral....but my understanding is that BSA's intent is not to allow any immoral person to be a leader so if his comment is supposed to be nontrivial, it would have to be a 'cause and effect' linkage.

[onthepath]

(a Scout makes an oath to remain morally straight)

And when that oath was written by Lord Baden-Powell a century ago, the term "straight" had nothing to do with sexual orientation or preference.

Morally straight means that you will live your life with honesty, you'll use clean speech and actions and you will have integrity. Those character traits are not exclusive to heterosexuals.

[Damien the Leper]

I'm not sure what you mean by the use of those capital letters. I'm talking about how Jesus/Jehovah who the Jews and earlier Israelites worshipped as God and I'm saying that many of them knew and were taught that Jesus/Jehovah had a Father. The fact that some Israelites and Jews later apostasized and rejected those teachings doesn't mean their ancestors did, though.

I'm talking about the early first century followers of Jesus. I guess we're talking about two different groups.

It may not seem that way to you but that's what you're actually seeing represented. It's very clear that those Jews/Israelites worshipped a Christ while knowing he was coming. It can't get much clearer than that is shown in the Book of Mormon.

I see Christological themes in the Book of Mormon, however, I'm not so quick on the draw to make a similar claim for the Hebrew Bible.

It may not have been new to you but that was the understanding I shared with you.

You didn't answer my question. What is it that you enlightened me about?

Everything I know, which is a heck of a lot more than you know on these issues.

The "I know more than you" card? Thats rather insulting. I wasn't aware that this was a knowledge contest.

[go_utes01]

And when that oath was written by Lord Baden-Powell a century ago, the term "straight" had nothing to do with sexual orientation or preference.

Morally straight means that you will live your life with honesty, you'll use clean speech and actions and you will have integrity. Those character traits are not exclusive to heterosexuals.

You realize my point was not that morally straight meant not gay, right? If you read my post, it says that homosexual activity does not accord with the BSA or the Church's definition of moral (I.e. not morally clean actions).

[kllindley]

If no gay men were scout leaders, there would be no gay pedophile scout leaders.

I don't want to get caught up in semantics, but I do think it's worth mentioning that "gay pedophile" is kind of an oxymoron. "Gay" really doesn't mean being attracted to all individuals of the same-sex regardless of age. Pedophilia refers to an exclusive attraction to pre-pubescent youth. It doesn't specify gender. Gay men are not more likely to be pedophiles than straight men.

[kllindley]

I don't think BSA has ever "banned" a boy or leader for simply having SSA but not acting on it. Have they?

They have. Multiple times, even when Bishops and Stake Presidents have supported calling a fatihful man with SSA.

[kllindley]

I do. He was a priest in our ward (I was his bishop). Attracted to males, not at all attracted to females, and obedient to the laws and commandments of the Church. There are many youth and adults like that.

We currently have "gay" leaders and Scouts under the SSA understanding, but never under the "sexually active" understanding. When can we confirm that this is, indeed, the change that has or will soon happen within BSA?

Again, these indivudals particpate in Scouting Activities through the Church in violation of the current BSA policy. I think the Church is morally correct in their choices. The problem is that in a ridiculously polarized social context, this common-sense middle ground is simply not understood.

[kllindley]

So we have Hollywood to blame for the fact that people don't meander back and forth throughout their lives from heterosexual orientation to homosexual orientation and back? Hmmm.

And you have a reference (or two) to support the conclusion that prior to the 20th century most of people in the world did not identify with a single sexual orientation?

Your first sentence misrepresents his point. The point is that previous to the late 19th century there is no written record of the terms homosexuality, heterosexuality, sexual orientation, sexual preference ever being used. The construct of an "orientation" simply didn't exist.

The references provided are good. Also: http://www.loveandfidelity.org/resources/a-requiem-for-friendship/

[Saints Alive]

They have. Multiple times, even when Bishops and Stake Presidents have supported calling a fatihful man with SSA.

CFR on this statement.

[Calm]

Gay men are not more likely to be pedophiles than straight men.

Actually there are studies that demonstrate that this is not true, though I haven't yet come across a study that dealt with actual offense (that homosexuals are more likely percentagewise to be actual molestors, in sheer numbers there are many more heterosexual abusers out there just because there are many more heterosexuals in the population) rather than just attraction:

http://www.tandfonli...926239208404356

However, the studies I viewed were twenty years old and perhaps there are better more recent ones out there that prove them wrong.

Edited February 3, 2013 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

I don't want to get caught up in semantics, but I do think it's worth mentioning that "gay pedophile" is kind of an oxymoron. "Gay" really doesn't mean being attracted to all individuals of the same-sex regardless of age. Pedophilia refers to an exclusive attraction to pre-pubescent youth. It doesn't specify gender. Gay men are not more likely to be pedophiles than straight men.

True but if (note I said if) one is a homosexual that just happens to be a pedophile then "gay pedophile" fits just fine. Not an oxymoron at all.

[changed]

I sent an email to BSA saying I am against a policy change, I'm against allowing gay men to be leaders. This does not mean I dislike gay people in any way, I would feel equally uncomfortable with a female leader taking them camping, or a female using the same restroom as them etc. etc. I view gay men the same as I would view a straight female, and would apply the same types of restrictions to each. Campouts etc. etc. should be restricted to groups of people where no one is in any way sexually attracted to anyone else in the group so that everyone can feel comfortable concentrating on friendships. I have a son in BS right now, and it would be really sad to see the program changed.

I think BSA is getting a lot of emails right now, if you have not contacted them yet with your viewpoint, I suggest everyone on here does so.

[gkearney]

And when that oath was written by Lord Baden-Powell a century ago, the term "straight" had nothing to do with sexual orientation or preference.

Morally straight means that you will live your life with honesty, you'll use clean speech and actions and you will have integrity. Those character traits are not exclusive to heterosexuals.

Just aN historical note. Baden-Powell never had the term "morally straight" in the scout oath he wrote. That is a BSA term. Baden-Powell's original was as follows:

I will do my duty to God and the King (Queen)

I will do my best to help others, whatever it costs me.

I will know the scout law, and will obay it.

Australia, Canada and other Commonwealth Realms still use an oath similar to this. The original scout law is:

A scouts Honour is to be trusted

A scout is loyal

A scouts duty is to be useful and to help others

A scout is a freind to all, and a brother to every other scout, no matter to what social class the other belongs

A scout is courteous

A scout is a freind to animals

A scout obays orders

A scout smiles and whistles under all circumstances

A scout is thrifty

Different nations use their own scout law. The term "morally straight" is, as far as I can tell, found only in the BSA and The Philippines whose scouting program grew out of the BSA program as a result of the US colonial administration of that country.

Edited February 3, 2013 by gkearney

[rockpond]

I sent an email to BSA saying I am against a policy change, I'm against allowing gay men to be leaders. This does not mean I dislike gay people in any way, I would feel equally uncomfortable with a female leader taking them camping, or a female using the same restroom as them etc. etc. I view gay men the same as I would view a straight female, and would apply the same types of restrictions to each. Campouts etc. etc. should be restricted to groups of people where no one is in any way sexually attracted to anyone else in the group so that everyone can feel comfortable concentrating on friendships.

Explorer Scouts was opened to males and females back in 1969. The Venture program began for both males and females in 1998.

Have you ever contacted the BSA previously to express your opinion that people who are sexually attracted to one another should not be in the scouting program?

Now, I recognize that here in the LDS world, many might not be aware of the co-ed scouting programs that have been around for many decades. So I cut slack accordingly. But the reason I ask the question is because it seems to me to fall a little flat when someone says "This does not mean I dislike gay people in any way" it's just that "Campouts etc. etc. should be restricted to groups of people where no one is in any way sexually attracted to anyone else in the group" since that has been going on in scouts for quite some time.

[ERayR]

Explorer Scouts was opened to males and females back in 1969. The Venture program began for both males and females in 1998.

Have you ever contacted the BSA previously to express your opinion that people who are sexually attracted to one another should not be in the scouting program?

Now, I recognize that here in the LDS world, many might not be aware of the co-ed scouting programs that have been around for many decades. So I cut slack accordingly. But the reason I ask the question is because it seems to me to fall a little flat when someone says "This does not mean I dislike gay people in any way" it's just that "Campouts etc. etc. should be restricted to groups of people where no one is in any way sexually attracted to anyone else in the group" since that has been going on in scouts for quite some time.

.

Just because it is does not mean it should be or did you have some other reason for bringing this up?

[rockpond]

.

Just because it is does not mean it should be or did you have some other reason for bringing this up?

My reason for bringing it up was stated in the final sentence of my post: "But the reason I ask the question is because it seems to me to fall a little flat when someone says "This does not mean I dislike gay people in any way" it's just that "Campouts etc. etc. should be restricted to groups of people where no one is in any way sexually attracted to anyone else in the group" since that has been going on in scouts for quite some time."

The quotes were from Changed as his/her rational for emailing the BSA with respect to their proposed policy change. If the BSA allowing sexually attracted people was a concern to him, why wait until now to express the concern if it truly has nothing to do with animosity toward gays?

[ERayR]

My reason for bringing it up was stated in the final sentence of my post: "But the reason I ask the question is because it seems to me to fall a little flat when someone says "This does not mean I dislike gay people in any way" it's just that "Campouts etc. etc. should be restricted to groups of people where no one is in any way sexually attracted to anyone else in the group" since that has been going on in scouts for quite some time."

The quotes were from Changed as his/her rational for emailing the BSA with respect to their proposed policy change. If the BSA allowing sexually attracted people was a concern to him, why wait until now to express the concern if it truly has nothing to do with animosity toward gays?

You will have to ask him his reasons but I can think of at least one. The church has not adopted co-ed scouts so perhaps he was unaware of it. Perhaps this was just the last straw,

[rockpond]

You will have to ask him his reasons but I can think of at least one. The church has not adopted co-ed scouts so perhaps he was unaware of it. Perhaps this was just the last straw,

Agreed. I did ask him. And I did note that those who are only familiar with LDS scouting might not be aware. Though I've never attended a BSA camp that wasn't co-ed (and I've attended several).

[changed]

.

Just because it is does not mean it should be or did you have some other reason for bringing this up?

Thank you ERay. My son just barely started the scouting program, and I'm new to it. I'm don't think that the church would send anyone on a co-ed camp out, and if they did, we would opt out. If the church does not do co-ed campouts, then it will probably also not have gay leaders take them on a camp out, so there's probably no concern for me. I don't think there is anything wrong with treating gay men as you would a female leader - ie - they should not use the same bathroom as the boys, they should not be bunking with the boys etc. etc. I really don't hate gay people, I have gay fb friends, and gay relatives. Call me old fashioned, but I just think it's inappropriate to have anyone who might be sexually attracted to one another go on a camp out. I have a girl scout too, and the same would go for her, I would not send her on a co-ed camp out, or place her with anyone who is sexually attracted to females either.

If anyone is intersted, this is the email I got, and then responded to:

Dear Friends,

I don't usually send out a request like this, but something has come to my attention that is concerning to me. I have been made aware that the Boy Scouts of America is currently accepting calls and emails regarding whether or not they should change their policy regarding not allowing gay leaders in scouting. I know that there are some very active and organized lobbying groups that are focused forcing the Boy Scouts to change their policy. I don't want to see the scouts caving to this pressure. Besides my moral feelings on the issue, I feel that this is a protection for our boys, just as you wouldn't have women leaders on camp-outs with our boys, I don't believe we should have gay leaders either. If you feel the same way, please take a moment to let the Boy Scouts of America know how you feel.

You can Facebook them at:

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=136693109828603&id=113441755297

or telephone them at BSA Headquarters at:

972-580-2330 and tell them you are AGAINST the policy change

or email them at:

nationalsupportcenter@scouting.org

And send them a message. Mine read:

Dear Sirs,

I thank you for taking the time to listen to my concerns. As a mother of ** boys, all actively involved in scouting, I am NOT for a change in the policy prohibiting gay leaders in scouting. It is a protection that I feel is important. Just as you do not allow Female leaders or girl scouts to camp out overnight with the boys, neither should you allow anyone who may be attracted to boys to camp-out with them. I know that there is a lot of social pressure, particularly from organized groups to change this policy and also the "duty to God" policy. I applaud you for holding strong to these moral beliefs, despite the adversity your group suffers as a result. I know that I am not alone in my views of this and know of many others who have their boys in scouts currently, who do so because it is a wholesome atmosphere, with good, moral, learning activities for our boys to participate in. This is getting harder to find these days. Please do not change in this manner. Thank you for your consideration.

Hopefully we can make a difference.

****

Edited February 3, 2013 by changed

[ERayR]

Thank you ERay. My son just barely started the scouting program, and I'm new to it. I'm don't think that the church would send anyone on a co-ed camp out, and if they did, we would opt out. If the church does not do co-ed campouts, then it will probably also not have gay leaders take them on a camp out, so there's probably no concern for me. I don't think there is anything wrong with treating gay men as you would a female leader - ie - they should not use the same bathroom as the boys, they should not be bunking with the boys etc. etc. I really don't hate gay people, I have gay fb friends, and gay relatives. Call me old fashioned, but I just think it's inappropriate to have anyone who might be sexually attracted to one another go on a camp out. I have a girl scout too, and the same would go for her, I would not send her on a co-ed camp out, or place her with anyone who is sexually attracted to females either.

If anyone is intersted, this is the email I got, and then responded to:

It is hard to respond because I don't know what connotations you put on "gay". If it means one active in the homosexual lifestyle I certainly agree with you but maybe not for the reasons you have. If you include those with ssa who are not active participants in the lifestyle then we might disagree. If the two deep leadership policy of the Church and BSA is followed then the boys should be protected against homosexual and heterosexual pedophiles.

[DavidB]

"just as you wouldn't have women leaders on camp-outs with our boys,"

Based on the fear many are expressing, the church should segregate all classes based on gender. Males 2 deep with the classroom door ajar only every teach a males, females teach females.