My Experience In The Land Of The Two Holy Mosques

[wayfarer]

I just returned from the lands of a prophet of another time and place. Amidst preparing for business meetings, I spent time memorizing surahs (Al-Fatihah is required for prayer and fairly simple) and trying to understand the land and its people.

Imagine, if you would, a place where LDS standards are not only practiced, but it's actually quite difficult to violate the standards of the church. Modesty is rigorously enforced. Nothing is open on the Sabbath. It's not feasible to violate the word of wisdom (in most of its particulars) because several substances are simply not available. Prayer is a daily part of life, with time set aside from work and commerce to pray as needed. The proclamation on the family (or at least a polygamy-friendly version) is abided by firmly, as mothers are almost forbidden from working outside the home. Even "blood atonement" is alive and well...

The people I met with in this land are wonderful. I find them to be very caring, family-oriented, and honest with me. Their food is absolutely exquisite. It's very clean (aside from the desert sand everywhere), and a great place to visit...but something struck me as I visited.

The custodians of the two Holy Mosques, Mecca and Medina, are the leaders of this holy enclave. Pictures of the King and his two principle heirs adorn every building. As I sat on the dais of a government hall presenting to 'princes' (no big deal --there are 15,000 in total), I looked up to find these three pictures of very old men reminded me of similar pictures in each and every building of worship in my own land and faith.

True, the rules are different. But that's not my point. If I were a 'gentile' in 1855, the territory of deseret would have appeared to me just like...saudi arabia does today.

I have always been open to other faiths. I"ve read the Quran twice in english, only to realize, ultimately, that you're not reading the Quran unless it is in arabic. Hence, I've been focusing on surahs in arabic, at least while wayfaring in the land of the holy mosques. This trip to this land, I've tried to think in terms of how a muslim would think -- which is at odds with what I've adopted in my life of Mahatma Gandhi's statement, "I am a muslim, I am a hindu, I am a christian, I am a jew, and so are all of you". As I memorized surahs and contemplated the meaning of the first pillar of Islam, "There is no god but god and Mohammed is his prophet", I realized that there is no middle ground -- no place where I can claim that statement AND hold that Joseph Smith, was also a prophet and that Pres Monson is a prophet today.

As there are are hundreds of times more muslims as there are LDS, I have to wonder: what kind of God enables this mutual exclusivity? What can I learn from the statements of exclusivity rampant in islam, which many of our LDS prophets today have preached with equal certainty? How is a recited testimony from a glove any different than the profession of faith of a muslim?

[Darren10]

I'm glad you have a positive experience in Saudia Arabia. My take is that, yes, high standards of moral conduct can live quite publicly when enforced brutally. Punishment for certain crimes do exceed the limits of, let's say, the US Constitution.

The proclamation on the family (or at least a polygamy-friendly version) is abided by firmly, as mothers are almost forbidden from working outside the home. Even "blood atonement" is alive and well...

First off, "blood atonement" should *NOT* be lumped into LDS standards. It's a teaching which I think is grossly misinterpreted, never fully accepted even by Brigham Young, and eventually outright renounced by LDS leaders. It has also *never* been practiced in LDS faith or worship. Repentence is in Christ the Lord and Him only. His blodd covers all sin except for blapshamy against the Holy Spirit. Secod, it's great that families come forst but even here I raise an eye of skepticism. Women are no doubt second-class citizens in Saudia Arabia. I don't even know if they're allowed to drive today but traditionally that answer would be no. Women are resticted, at least in many parts, in Saudia Arabia in how they dress and whom they accompany. While I think that our society has gone to the other extreme regarding modesty and expectations of females, I still think, in the end, we are socially better in that we do not force our standards via a police state.

As there are are hundreds of times more muslims as there are LDS, I have to wonder: what kind of God enables this mutual exclusivity? What can I learn from the statements of exclusivity rampant in islam, which many of our LDS prophets today have preached with equal certainty? How is a recited testimony from a glove any different than the profession of faith of a muslim?

I've no idea what you're getting at here.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Darren10

[CV75]

As there are are hundreds of times more muslims as there are LDS, I have to wonder: what kind of God enables this mutual exclusivity? What can I learn from the statements of exclusivity rampant in islam, which many of our LDS prophets today have preached with equal certainty? How is a recited testimony from a glove any different than the profession of faith of a muslim?

what kind of God enables this mutual exclusivity?

The God of freedom and agency, who also enables unrestricted sharing.

What can I learn from the statements of exclusivity rampant in islam, which many of our LDS prophets today have preached with equal certainty?

That exclusivity, like diversity and discrimination, has its good applications and bad.

How is a recited testimony from a glove any different than the profession of faith of a muslim?

It depends—both a recitation and a profession can be the same thing, and both can be sincere or hypocritical, shallow or deep, a step in learning or a dam for ignorance, etc. The Light of Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost can witness to the truth in either (even anonymously); only one can possibly entail the Gift of the Holy Ghost, since the other would entail Gabriel and anonymity is thus removed.

[wayfarer]

what kind of God enables this mutual exclusivity?

The God of freedom and agency, who also enables unrestricted sharing.

What can I learn from the statements of exclusivity rampant in islam, which many of our LDS prophets today have preached with equal certainty?

That exclusivity, like diversity and discrimination, has its good applications and bad.

How is a recited testimony from a glove any different than the profession of faith of a muslim?

It depends—both a recitation and a profession can be the same thing, and both can be sincere or hypocritical, shallow or deep, a step in learning or a dam for ignorance, etc. The Light of Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost can witness to the truth in either (even anonymously); only one can possibly entail the Gift of the Holy Ghost, since the other would entail Gabriel and anonymity is thus removed.

My observation being around a lot of muslims in my time in India and now in Saudi, is that they have the full range of sincerity, as do we. Something I never saw growing up was "the testimony glove" -- the idea that an essential statement of testimony includes five rote statements. Something about that turns me off entirely. A testimony to me was a heart-felt expression of faith, in whatever form that might be, and expressed freely without compulsion or standards to what it had to include. I still think that is the best testimony.

But when i see in islam a requirement for a specific form of profession of faith, when I see exclusivity being mandated... it gives me a warning not to adopt the same in our own faith.

I don't quite follow you on the gabriel/jibreel versus holy ghost anonymity comment -- not sure that is a doctrinal difference, or where this comes from. If I accept, in some way, that mohammed was a true prophet of god for his place and time, then like all prophets, he reveals the truth he receives through his mind and heart. He 'recited' what he heard...but how is his 'hearing' any different, say, than an prophet who hears a 'still small voice'? And, like many if not all prophets, the still small voice, when repeated back, sometimes gets convoluted with opinion of the prophet?

While I cannot accept many of the statements in the Quran, I would like to think, as expressed in 2NE 29, that God does speak through the holy words of prophets to the nations throughout the world.

Your statement above about free agency is right on point. Thanks for sharing your point of view.

[changed]

Mahatma Gandhi's statement, "I am a muslim, I am a hindu, I am a christian, I am a jew, and so are all of you"

I often daydream that there are modern day "sheep not of this fold", that there are other tribes who are lost to us, but not to God, and read other religious scriptures searching for the missing links that will provide the way that one day we will all be united into one fold under one Shepherd. I can only hope, that one day we will find that we have always been brothers and sisters led by the same God, but for now, I can only rely on where the Spirit takes me. I have certainly learned spiritual truths from other faiths, but the Spirit has been very clear about what "tribe" I am supposed to be with, so that is where I am... only time will tell how we will all be joined together one day.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 29:7 - 13)

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

[Maidservant]

What kind of God enables this mutual exclusivity?

I have also wondered on similar questions and while obviously I would not have the last word on this, here are some thoughts.

The kind of God that knows that we are the ones who have to decide what kind of world we will create, and it's a bit of a messy business with our agency, but he trusts the process and so we can too.

The kind of God that is creating beings of charity and one of the ways we transform into charity is to be confronted with these seemingly impossible differences of religion and lifestyle that exist in the world, but STILL become willing to be brothers and to surround the same table and break bread. (see Pearl of Great Price Moses 7:28,32-33)

The kind of God that placed the seeds of the Restoration of his gospel when he called upon his servant, Mohammed, s.a.w. (Back through the ages, Islam is one of the direct predecessors of the creation of a nation of liberty; Islam is part of the history that made this possible (the history of ideas).)

The kind of God that speaks in the language of his children so that they may understand him. I think this means far more than just the linguistic language we have, but includes also our ability to understand concepts and paradigms.

[volgadon]

Franz Rosenzweig noted that Christianity is a narrowing of faith, though with the potential to reach all humans. There is a great deal of truth to this observation.

[mfbukowski]

I have never in my life heard of a testimony glove but of course I have only been in the church 33 years - what do I know? What is it?

Edited January 21, 2013 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

I think God teaches his children how to progress from their present spiritual state, to a fullness of knowledge.

If you are from a nation of idolators conversion to monotheism and the notion of a prophet is a major leap forward, and I am sure it had God's endorsement.

But I am certain there is more truth available to mankind as well and the Restoration has all that has been revealed so far, yet of course there is still more yet to be revealed.

If that is true, we must have ongoing prophets to receive that revelation. With that said, I have no problem calling Mohammad a "prophet" for his time and place, but to say that he had access to all that would ever be available from God is no different than thinking that the Bible contains all truth.

It is clear to me that any true church must have an open canon. That kind of limits the possibilities

Edited January 21, 2013 by mfbukowski

[canard78]

I'm glad you have a positive experience in Saudia Arabia. My take is that, yes, high standards of moral conduct can live quite publicly when enforced brutally. Punishment for certain crimes do exceed the limits of, let's say, the US Constitution.

First off, "blood atonement" should *NOT* be lumped into LDS standards. It's a teaching which I think is grossly misinterpreted, never fully accepted even by Brigham Young, and eventually outright renounced by LDS leaders. It has also *never* been practiced in LDS faith or worship. Repentence is in Christ the Lord and Him only. His blodd covers all sin except for blapshamy against the Holy Spirit. Secod, it's great that families come forst but even here I raise an eye of skepticism. Women are no doubt second-class citizens in Saudia Arabia. I don't even know if they're allowed to drive today but traditionally that answer would be no. Women are resticted, at least in many parts, in Saudia Arabia in how they dress and whom they accompany. While I think that our society has gone to the other extreme regarding modesty and expectations of females, I still think, in the end, we are socially better in that we do not force our standards via a police state.

Blood Atonement... officially not a doctrine... but was still alive and well in mormon folklore until fairly recently. I can remember when a teenager being taught the principle of blood atonement for murder (not from a manual!).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/24/firing-squad-sparks-talk_n_587836.html

When state Rep. Sheryl Allen began proposing eliminating the firing-squad option in the late 1990s, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints itself did not object. Yet talk of blood atonement percolated "in quiet, backroom discussions," she recalled.

"A couple of people in prominent positions said to me, 'We've got to have blood atonement.'"

By 2004, Allen says, all mention of the Mormon concept "just went away" and the measure passed. The LDS Church disavows any connection to blood atonement, says spokesman Scott Trotter.

"We believe in and teach the infinite and all-encompassing atonement of Jesus Christ, which makes forgiveness of sin and salvation possible for all people," Trotter said.

Gardner, who had the option of choosing a firing squad for his scheduled June 18 execution because his original sentencing preceded the law change, told the Deseret News in 1996 he would sue for the right to die that way.

"I guess it's my Mormon heritage," he told the paper.

If the LDS Church doesn't preach blood atonement and the firing squad is virtually finished, why, then, does the notion linger in public and private conversations across the state? The answer may lie in history, symbolism and salvation.

Growing up in Salt Lake City, legal scholar Martin R. Gardner heard older Mormons attribute their support of capital punishment to the idea of blood atonement. As a Mormon missionary in England in the late 1960s, he had a pamphlet, penned by the future Mormon prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, which described and defended the teaching.

"It was always around in the popular consciousness," Gardner said from the University of Nebraska Law School, where he teaches criminal law.

In a 1979 article in "Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought," Gardner traced the teaching to Brigham Young, who believed even Christ's atoning sacrifice for humanity could not cover some sins, including murder, apostasy and egregious sexual misbehavior.

"There are transgressors," Young said in an 1856 sermon, "who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them."

There was a request for execution by firing squad in 2012:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/11/us-firing-squad-utah-idUSTRE81A02A20120211

[Storm Rider]

I have been living in Abu Dhabi for the last few years and have visited several of the GCC countries. During this time I have gained a degree of understanding of our Muslim brothers and sisters. Truth can be found in concentrated forms, but most of the time it is found through hard work, contemplation, prayer, and sifting through teachings about God. Islam is no different. You have recognized some similarities between Islam and the restored Church of Jesus Christ, but the ones you noted are rather shallow. Further, there is no relationship between political leaders in the Middle East and the First Presidency of the Church.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I have never in my life heard of a testimony glove but of course I have only been in the church 33 years - what do I know? What is it?

Yeah, same.

[canard78]

Yeah, same.

Nor had I, but I'm guessing it's this:

http://www.lds.org/l...000176f620a____

Have you ever worn gloves? Some gloves protect your hands when you work. Other gloves keep your hands warm. Another kind is worn when playing a sport. In this activity you can make your own “testimony glove” to help you remember five parts of your testimony.

A testimony is a spiritual witness of the gospel’s truthfulness given to us by the Holy Ghost. There are essential parts to a testimony. If you have a desire to believe those things, your belief can grow into a knowledge that they are true.

My Testimony

1. I know that God is our Heavenly Father and He loves us.

2. I know that His Son, Jesus Christ, is our Savior and Redeemer

3. I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. He restored the gospel of Jesus Christ to the earth and translated the Book of Mormon by the power of God.

4. I know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s Church on the earth today.

5. I know that this Church is led by a living prophet who receives revelation.

I guess some people would consider that to be positive affirmation or indoctrination to have a child stand up and repeat those 5 statements of 'I know' before they have actually received a witness of their veracity.

I guess the phrase has also extended to anyone who stands up and repeats those phrases without much additional thought in testimony meeting.

Edited to add:

Deseret Books make and sell a Testimony Glove book and pack:

http://deseretbook.c...-Oaks/i/5044695

And Shawn McCraney's perspective on the testimony glove can be found here:

(Warning: Watching clips of Shawn McCraney on youtube can become addictive and lead to furious shouting at your laptop. Anti-mormon car-crash TV at its lowest budget, worst researched but most compelling).

P.S.

In the Shawn youtube clip there is a Deseret Book commercial for the glove. It's a bit sickly sweet. I've got to ask... where is 'Afrikehr?' It's like the third syllable takes on a life of its own.

Here's the commercial:

[media=]

Anyway... wayfarer... apologies for the thread derail.

Edited January 21, 2013 by canard78

[canard78]

I have been living in Abu Dhabi for the last few years and have visited several of the GCC countries. During this time I have gained a degree of understanding of our Muslim brothers and sisters. Truth can be found in concentrated forms, but most of the time it is found through hard work, contemplation, prayer, and sifting through teachings about God. Islam is no different. You have recognized some similarities between Islam and the restored Church of Jesus Christ, but the ones you noted are rather shallow. Further, there is no relationship between political leaders in the Middle East and the First Presidency of the Church.

There is of course the difference of the question of the Saviour's role and temple covenants. But the following highlights indicate theological parallels:

http://www.islam101....iritualPath.htm

The first necessity for progression along the path of spiritual development is MAN (faith)... This should be a firm conviction, based not merely on the intellect, but also on acceptance by the will. The stronger and deeper this conviction, the more profound a man’s faith will be.

The second stage is that of obedience (it~ ’at), meaning that man gives up his independence and accepts subservience to Allah... man should not only acknowledge Allah as his Lord and Sovereign but should actually submit before Him and fashion his entire life in obedience to Him.

The third stage is that of taqw~ (Allah-consciousness). It consists in a practical manifestation of one’s faith in Allah in one’s daily life. Taqw~ also means desisting from everything which Allah has forbidden or has disapproved of...

The last and the highest stage is that of ihs~ n (godliness) It signifies that man has attained highest excellence in words, deeds and thoughts, identifying his will with the will of Allah and harmonizing it, to the best of his knowledge and ability, with the Divine will. He thus begins to like what is liked by the Lord and to dislike what He dislikes.

I don't think a Mormon would disagree with any of the above principles. We might use different language, but the principles are the same:

Faith, not based merely on intellect, leading to a deep conviction.

Submission of will, a broken heart and contrite spirit

A strict observance to God's commandments as a token of ones faith

Striving for godliness, adopting the characteristics of God and following his will

This is just the start. Mormons are probably closer to Muslims than many other religions.

Edited January 21, 2013 by canard78

[CV75]

"the testimony glove"

***

But when i see in islam a requirement for a specific form of profession of faith, when I see exclusivity being mandated... it gives me a warning not to adopt the same in our own faith.

***

I don't quite follow you on the gabriel/jibreel versus holy ghost anonymity comment -- not sure that is a doctrinal difference, or where this comes from. If I accept, in some way, that mohammed was a true prophet of god for his place and time, then like all prophets, he reveals the truth he receives through his mind and heart. He 'recited' what he heard...but how is his 'hearing' any different, say, than an prophet who hears a 'still small voice'? And, like many if not all prophets, the still small voice, when repeated back, sometimes gets convoluted with opinion of the prophet?

While I cannot accept many of the statements in the Quran, I would like to think, as expressed in 2NE 29, that God does speak through the holy words of prophets to the nations throughout the world.

Your statement above about free agency is right on point. Thanks for sharing your point of view.

I suppose we can use an LDS version of the “testimony glove” as a teaching device; and I suppose in some unfortunate instances it can be used in a compulsory fashion. At any rate, I’m sure that many recite the five glove points with heart-felt sincerely, deeply, with knowledge.

RE: my remark, “The Light of Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost can witness to the truth in either (even anonymously); only one can possibly entail the Gift of the Holy Ghost, since the other would entail Gabriel and anonymity is thus removed.”

Sometimes people are moved upon by the Light of Christ or by the power of the Holy Ghost but do not recognize them as such, so The Lord remains anonymous to the recipients while they credit “God”, the Great Spirit, Allah, Gabriel (it is believed, perhaps not doctrinally, among Muslims that he is the angel Gabriel) or someone/thing else; the important thing in these exchanges is that truth is revealed by God to the degree the recipients are able to receive it and to the degree the Lord knows they can apply it. Of the two faiths, only the LDS has the Gift of the Holy Ghost, since there is no such corresponding gift in the Muslim. So the LDS remain with this third, additional source of revelation that the Muslims do not claim. The Holy Spirit is not anonymous to LDS who actively use the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

This is where the “still small voice” describes several and often interacting levels of revelation: the Light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and the Priesthood Keys all entail the still small voice. Only the LDS prophet experiences the still small voice in concert with the Gift and the Priesthood Keys, which enhance the quality of the revelation, its content and binding nature, and the results of heeding the revelation. The Muslim faith possesses no corresponding tools.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Lord spoke through Mohammed and other Christian and non-Christian religious/spiritual/philosophical/moral teachers and leaders, either according to their faith in Christ or their receptivity to the influence of the Light of Christ or the power of the Holy Ghost.

[Tacenda]

Deseret Books make and sell a Testimony Glove book and pack:

http://deseretbook.c...-Oaks/i/5044695

If you'll notice on the website for purchasing the combo pack, Kristen Oaks is the Author of the book and came up with the idea. I can imagine it would be a little difficult for Deseret Bookstore to turn down her book even if they weren't fond of the idea. Kristen Oaks is Dallin H. Oaks wife.

[canard78]

If you'll notice on the website for purchasing the combo pack, Kristen Oaks is the Author of the book and came up with the idea. I can imagine it would be a little difficult for Deseret Bookstore to turn down her book even if they weren't fond of the idea. Kristen Oaks is Dallin H. Oaks wife.

The publishing advantages of the 'inner circle.'

Given it was also featured as an idea in The Friend I'm sure the publishing team were very happy with a book with that level of cross-promotion.

Personally I have issues with having 5-6 yo children repeating a mantra like 'I know Joseph Smith was a prophet' at an age where they perhaps haven't really had the opportunity to consider this properly.

I'm not saying kids can't get their own testimony. I was 8 when I started reading it regularly and 10 when I prayed about it and had a spiritual witness it was true.

My issue is having children say 'I know' when they don't yet.

[Tacenda]

The publishing advantages of the 'inner circle.'

Given it was also featured as an idea in The Friend I'm sure the publishing team were very happy with a book with that level of cross-promotion.

Personally I have issues with having 5-6 yo children repeating a mantra like 'I know Joseph Smith was a prophet' at an age where they perhaps haven't really had the opportunity to consider this properly.

I'm not saying kids can't get their own testimony. I was 8 when I started reading it regularly and 10 when I prayed about it and had a spiritual witness it was true.

My issue is having children say 'I know' when they don't yet.

I did notice in the video advertisement, she said "cement" as in cement their testimony. I mentioned in another thread how the missionary will be cemented in the church through first getting the endowment and then mission and then marriage in the temple....so I guess it can start early, very early. But hopefully one gets the conversion on their own eventually! Edited January 21, 2013 by Tacenda

[Questing Beast]

...

As there are are hundreds of times more muslims as there are LDS, I have to wonder: what kind of God enables this mutual exclusivity? What can I learn from the statements of exclusivity rampant in islam, which many of our LDS prophets today have preached with equal certainty? How is a recited testimony from a glove any different than the profession of faith of a muslim?

And that is the bottom line question. My conclusion is that all religions are man-made, period. They always were and always will be. I take Gandhi's statement in a parallel direction: "I am not a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, Hindu or Mormon". I believe in "God" as the Orchestrator of justice. As such "God" is the only sapience that knows what ultimate justice Is. Everyone here is learning what justice Is. Perfect justice is the road to Joy. Ultimately nobody who lives here will "go away" unsatisfied with God's justice. That, of course, is patently impossible if ANY singular dogma is "the only true and living [religion] upon the whole earth in which I am well pleased", i.e. the only road to "salvation" open to mankind....

Edited January 21, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Tacenda]

And that is the bottom line question. My conclusion is that all religions are man-made, period. They always were and always will be. I take Gandhi's statement in a parallel direction: "I am not a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, Hindu or Mormon". I believe in "God" as the Orchestrator of justice. As such "God" is the only sapience that knows what ultimate justice Is. Everyone here is learning what justice Is. Perfect justice is the road to Joy. Ultimately nobody who lives here will "go away" unsatisfied with God's justice. That, of course, is patently impossible if ANY singular dogma is "the only true and living [religion] upon the the whole earth in which I am well pleased", i.e. the only road to "salvation" open to mankind....

I like one that says whichever religion makes you the best person is the right one. Or along those lines. Did he say that or am I up in the night, can't find the quote!

[mfbukowski]

Nor had I, but I'm guessing it's this:

Oh.

Utah.

I get it now. I live out here in the real world. No Deseret Book commercials on TV, no anti-mormons on the radio, no one cares nor do they even know what a Mormon is.

I lived in Utah for a year, there is a reason why I no longer live there. Weird place. Kind of like living in Vatican City I would imagine but bigger.

[canard78]

what kind of God enables this mutual exclusivity?

The God of freedom and agency, who also enables unrestricted sharing.

What can I learn from the statements of exclusivity rampant in islam, which many of our LDS prophets today have preached with equal certainty?

That exclusivity, like diversity and discrimination, has its good applications and bad.

I've thought long and hard about this question of exclusivity.

The more I meet the practitioners of diverse faiths, particularly the non-Abrahamic ones, the less I feel comfortable with the absolutist implications of D&C 1:30

30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually— (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 1:30)

I think that some people need absolutism. One of my sons needs to know exactly what time we will leave for home when we're visiting friends. We've learned from experience that saying 'I don't know' just wont do. Instead we might say, with confidence, '4pm,' safe in the knowledge that when 4pm comes around, if we are still enjoying the visit he won't hold us to it.

I really won't mind if we get to the other side and God greets the whole of the human family and says, 'Yes, I know I told you that your way was the only way but I did it that way because it is more express... that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory. (D&C 19:7)

In other words, being LDS is the only true and living church or way for me. But I don't presume it is for all.

If absolutism is the only way to get the desired outcome for certain children, then those children need absolute language with no room for doubt. Otherwise it's not absolute.

[Tacenda]

Oh.

Utah.

I get it now. I live out here in the real world. No Deseret Book commercials on TV, no anti-mormons on the radio, no one cares nor do they even know what a Mormon is.

I lived in Utah for a year, there is a reason why I no longer live there. Weird place. Kind of like living in Vatican City I would imagine but bigger.

I'm dying to know what it's like on the outside!

[mfbukowski]

The publishing advantages of the 'inner circle.'

Given it was also featured as an idea in The Friend I'm sure the publishing team were very happy with a book with that level of cross-promotion.

Personally I have issues with having 5-6 yo children repeating a mantra like 'I know Joseph Smith was a prophet' at an age where they perhaps haven't really had the opportunity to consider this properly.

I'm not saying kids can't get their own testimony. I was 8 when I started reading it regularly and 10 when I prayed about it and had a spiritual witness it was true.

My issue is having children say 'I know' when they don't yet.

Well in fact, the church has now specifically issued a letter stating that children should not be helped by adults in their testimonies, and I can confirm that Bishops do not use the testimony glove questions in baptismal interviews. That is pure bunk.

[canard78]

Oh.

Utah.

I get it now. I live out here in the real world. No Deseret Book commercials on TV, no anti-mormons on the radio, no one cares nor do they even know what a Mormon is.

I lived in Utah for a year, there is a reason why I no longer live there. Weird place. Kind of like living in Vatican City I would imagine but bigger.

+1

I have spent a total of 10 days in my life in Utah. That will probably be my lifetime allocation. I'm sure some people love it but I couldn't imagine living there.