Walden Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 On these boards, I occasionally see the sentiment expressed that atheists are without hope, and that theism is the best vehicle in providing "hope."This idea, apparently held by a large number of theists, is best expressed by William Craig (philosophy professor at Talbot School of Theology), who states that "If God does not exist, then we must ultimately live without hope. If there is no God, then there is ultimately no hope for deliverance from the shortcomings of our finite existence.”Since embracing atheism, I have always been puzzled by this sentiment, since I consider to myself to have just as much hope as the next person. As a humanist, I have many hopes, though none in relation to any supernatural being or eternal life.So maybe I don't have hope in the idea of eternal life, but should this hope that theists speak of, and accuse atheists of being without, only apply to eternal life? Is life so sad and depressing that theists have no hope for anything but heaven? Does a theist's life (the physical life that we are currently living) have so little meaning or joy that one cannot imagine hope without the promise of a better or more permanent life to follow?For those who hold the belief that hope cannot exist within the realm of atheism, what is this mystical "hope" that you speak of? Is it only in relation to eternal life and heaven? Without the hope of eternal life, do you consider this physical life meaningless? How does the idea of eternal life make this physical life more meaningful for you?
go_utes01 Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 I think it means no ultimate meaning, i.e. the knowledge that the earth, sun, universe is ultimately destined to die in the heat death of the universe, nothing we do here has any ultimate meaning. I do not believe that William Craig or many other theists would say that as an atheist your life has no meaning or that you can have no hope, just that ultimately there is no meaning or hope. Does that make sense?
The Nehor Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 They are using hope in the hoping for infinite improvement sense not the "I hope my child is happy" or " I hope I do not get mauled by that bear" sense.As for life being sad and depressing, yes, I hold that view. It is no excuse to make life more miserable for myself or others but I do not expect justice or true happiness here in any continual sense. All things are transitory.Life sucks then you die.....and then it gets better.That being said, I think I am happier then most people on this planet. Maybe my expectations are just higher? 1
CV75 Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 On these boards, I occasionally see the sentiment expressed that atheists are without hope, and that theism is the best vehicle in providing "hope."This idea, apparently held by a large number of theists, is best expressed by William Craig (philosophy professor at Talbot School of Theology), who states that "If God does not exist, then we must ultimately live without hope. If there is no God, then there is ultimately no hope for deliverance from the shortcomings of our finite existence.”Since embracing atheism, I have always been puzzled by this sentiment, since I consider to myself to have just as much hope as the next person. As a humanist, I have many hopes, though none in relation to any supernatural being or eternal life.So maybe I don't have hope in the idea of eternal life, but should this hope that theists speak of, and accuse atheists of being without, only apply to eternal life? Is life so sad and depressing that theists have no hope for anything but heaven? Does a theist's life (the physical life that we are currently living) have so little meaning or joy that one cannot imagine hope without the promise of a better or more permanent life to follow?For those who hold the belief that hope cannot exist within the realm of atheism, what is this mystical "hope" that you speak of? Is it only in relation to eternal life and heaven? Without the hope of eternal life, do you consider this physical life meaningless? How does the idea of eternal life make this physical life more meaningful for you?There are all kinds of hope and objects of hope.Hope as an expectation (or as an expectation of obtainment): Atheists assert that they do not have any expectation in relation to eternal life, but in other things. Theists assert that they do have an expectation in relation to eternal life and also in relation to many of the same things atheists do.Hope as a feeling of wishing: Depending on the maturity level of their worldview, theists assert that they do not have any wishful feelings in relation to eternal life, but in other things. Theists likewise assert that they do have wishful feelings, but an expectation in relation to eternal life. Both may indulge in recreational or palliative wishing.The same can be said for the objects of these kinds of hope. Atheists do not see eternal life and an object of hope; theists do. Atheists do not have a wishful feeling about eternal life, and theists mature in their worldview do not. Both may find objects of recreational or palliative wishing.Both may have either kind of hope in behalf of others, and their professors are often speaking to the chior.
Walden Posted January 9, 2013 Author Posted January 9, 2013 I think it means no ultimate meaning, i.e. the knowledge that the earth, sun, universe is ultimately destined to die in the heat death of the universe, nothing we do here has any ultimate meaning. I do not believe that William Craig or many other theists would say that as an atheist your life has no meaning or that you can have no hope, just that ultimately there is no meaning or hope. Does that make sense?Yes, I get that viewpoint, that this physical life apparently has no "ultimate meaning." For myself, however, the idea that there is no afterlife makes this life even more meaningful. When I was believer, I lived under an impression that yes, this life is tough, but there is a better life waiting for me when I die, so all I have to do is endure. As an atheist, I now believe that this life is our one and only shot, so I hold a greater value for this life. Essentially, I determine my life's "meaning." 1
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 (edited) I will admit that the thought of billions upon billions of fellow humans dying horrible deaths and rotting into unrecognizable putrefaction within the vast cycling organic processes of the planet makes me pretty feel dang unhopeful. That idea, when I was a hardcore Dawkins-atheist, didn't imply that I thought life had no meaning - the problem is (and always has been) that since I believe we can create so many good meanings and possibilities for amazing hopes and dreams, I don't want any of it ever to end! (I was in Powell's Books the other day reading Mortality, Hitchens' last book, and I was just crying right there in the aisle. Heartbreaking seeing those last few sentence fragments drift off into nothingness.) Not all religions promise the eternal life of the individual-as-such, so this isn't really a matter of "religion" versus "atheism", but rather certain religions and certain atheistic attitudes (and besides, I'm kinda Durkheimian in that I think the behavioral characteristics we commonly associate with "religion" are present in all human societies anyway -- we're homo religiosus, folks, there's no getting around it). I think of my religion, then, as a sort of extension of the hope I had as an atheist; I really, really like being alive, and maybe there's some benevolent Ancient Astronaut scientist out there who beat the Transhumanists to the secrets of Eternal Life and who's intelligent enough to know how to save us little people. I mean, c'mon. Sex good. Food good. Friends and familia good. Swimming good. Hiking good. Running and dancing and working out and reading in bed and listening to thunderstorms and kissing and flying in airplanes ... all good. I have extremely little interest in dying, since I don't know what death is like and my primate brain is therefore scared of it. (Screw you, Socrates.) Edited January 10, 2013 by JeremyOrbe-Smith 2
Calm Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Serious question, not a challenge: What comfort would you offer a parent who had just lost their child in a needless accident or even intended killing (such as the school massacre awhile back)?
Glenn101 Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Serious question, not a challenge: What comfort would you offer a parent who had just lost their child in a needless accident or even intended killing (such as the school massacre awhile back)?I would add to that, what hope would one offer to the thousands or more starving, abused, neglected children in this world where al they have to look forward to is more of the same?Glenn
CA Steve Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 I would add to that, what hope would one offer to the thousands or more starving, abused, neglected children in this world where al they have to look forward to is more of the same?GlennIs the motivation to help such people greater for those who believe in an afterlife or greater for those that do not. If we have to choose between offering spiritual relief or physical, which is more important?
go_utes01 Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Is the motivation to help such people greater for those who believe in an afterlife or greater for those that do not. If we have to choose between offering spiritual relief or physical, which is more important?I would hope seeing another human being suffering would be sufficient for either point of view. For a religious person, the fact that a child of Heavenly Father, our own brother or sister, is suffering, along with the admonition of Jesus to "love our neighbor" should be a motivating factor. But, for an atheist, limiting human suffering is also a moral imperative (or should be). As for your question of offering spiritual or physical relief, I think each are equally important (obviously for an atheist there would be different considerations, but offering mental/spiritual (in the sense of human spirit, not necessarily a transcendent spirit) relief would likely be important as well).
Saints Alive Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 This is a topic I have thought about a lot. If there is no God or afterlife ultimately there is no meaning to life. Yes we can have joy, and give to others in the time we have but to what end? Ultimately we will die and any joy we experience will be meaningless to us, we won't remember it. It would make no difference if we lived a life of sorrow and heartbreak because in the end we have no memory of it. You could argue that our ancestors would remember our happiness but ultimately they will die too and have no memory of our or their joy. Any contributions we make to society would ultimately be useless, those who benefit from them will ultimately die and it would make no difference if they lived a futuristic life or the life of a cave man, they have no memory of it either way.
Saints Alive Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 I would hope seeing another human being suffering would be sufficient for either point of view... But, for an atheist, limiting human suffering is also a moral imperative (or should be)... To what end? If there is no afterlife what does it matter if someone lives a live of luxury or of poverty and sorrow? When they die it makes no difference what joy or sorrow they had.
yootaw Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) Serious question, not a challenge: What comfort would you offer a parent who had just lost their child in a needless accident or even intended killing (such as the school massacre awhile back)?Great question! My first thought was the story of Alma not stretching forth his hand to prevent the deaths of the women and children. His answer (below) hasn't sat well with me since starting to doubt the existence of God.Alma 48:11 And Moroni was a astrong and a mighty man; he was a man of a perfect bunderstanding; yea, a man that did not delight in bloodshed; a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his country, and his brethren from bondage and slavery;I like the idea of spending eternity with my family, and those that I love. However, using this as a comfort to someone who has just lost somebody, especially due to preventable violence, just raises the problem of evil in my mind. Why would God intervene to save Samual the Lamanite, but not Joseph or Hyrum Smith? Edited January 10, 2013 by yootaw
pogi Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 When I was believer, I lived under an impression that yes, this life is tough, but there is a better life waiting for me when I die, so all I have to do is endure. As an atheist, I now believe that this life is our one and only shot, so I hold a greater value for this life. Essentially, I determine my life's "meaning."What a profound truth that you discovered in atheism. Proof that truth and goodness can be found everywhere. However, you should narrow it down from "this life is our one and only shot", to "this present moment is our one and only shot." When we realize that the present is all that exists, and all that ever will exist, we learn to experience meaning, happiness, and well-being in the present instead of waiting for God to change us and make things better in the next life. I have no doubt that with this perspective, you experience deeper meaning and more profound relationships than theist who do not perceive life this way. These are things that we need to create now, we are not to passively wait for a better day, but we are instructed to be anxiously engaged in good.My hope is that the present never stops, and I intend to live as if it never will. My potential for good becomes limitless in this hope. 3
Tacenda Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) What a profound truth that you discovered in atheism. Proof that truth and goodness can be found everywhere. However, you should narrow it down from "this life is our one and only shot", to "this present moment is our one and only shot." When we realize that the present is all that exists, and all that ever will exist, we learn to experience meaning, happiness, and well-being in the present instead of waiting for God to change us and make things better in the next life. I have no doubt that with this perspective, you experience deeper meaning and more profound relationships than theist who do not perceive life this way. These are things that we need to create now, we are not to passively wait for a better day, but we are instructed to be anxiously engaged in good.My hope is that the present never stops, and I intend to live as if it never will. My potential for good becomes limitless in this hope.Favorite quote and believe in it wholeheartedly. Edited January 10, 2013 by Tacenda
yootaw Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 To what end? If there is no afterlife what does it matter if someone lives a live of luxury or of poverty and sorrow? When they die it makes no difference what joy or sorrow they had.I am happier when I help someone in need. I feel bad when I don't. That is enough for me to help, regardless of the existence of God, or an afterlife.
Saints Alive Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 I am happier when I help someone in need. I feel bad when I don't. That is enough for me to help, regardless of the existence of God, or an afterlife.but ultimately it doesn't matter if you feel happier or not. You won't remember the happiness and the person you helped wont remember you helped them. Their end is the same whether you help or not.
Calm Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) But what does that matter to him if he feels happier....he is not talking about changing the world, only what is meaningful to him. If that is sufficient for him, arguing it shouldn't be and he should be miserable instead doesn't make much sense. Edited January 10, 2013 by calmoriah
Calm Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Great question! My first thought was the story of Alma not stretching forth his hand to prevent the deaths of the women and children. His answer (below) hasn't sat well with me since starting to doubt the existence of God.Alma 48:11 And Moroni was a astrong and a mighty man; he was a man of a perfect bunderstanding; yea, a man that did not delight in bloodshed; a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his country, and his brethren from bondage and slavery;I like the idea of spending eternity with my family, and those that I love. However, using this as a comfort to someone who has just lost somebody, especially due to preventable violence, just raises the problem of evil in my mind. Why would God intervene to save Samual the Lamanite, but not Joseph or Hyrum Smith?It becomes an issue of trust in the Lord that he will make sense of it. What does an atheist have to appeal to as a potential source of sense even if not an immediate answer?
pogi Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 I am happier when I help someone in need. I feel bad when I don't. That is enough for me to help, regardless of the existence of God, or an afterlife.Is it regardless of the existence of God, or because of the existence of God?The only way to answer that question is through the seed of hope.
Saints Alive Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 But what does that matter to him if he feels happier....he is not talking about changing the world, only what is meaningful to him. If that is sufficient for him, arguing it shouldn't be and he should be miserable instead doesn't make much sense.Its pointless either way. I can be Gandhi or I can be Hitler, without an afterlife it makes no difference. I'll bet hitler lived much more comfortably than Gandhi.
yootaw Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 but ultimately it doesn't matter if you feel happier or not. You won't remember the happiness and the person you helped wont remember you helped them. Their end is the same whether you help or not.It matters to me.
yootaw Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Its pointless either way. I can be Gandhi or I can be Hitler, without an afterlife it makes no difference. I'll bet hitler lived much more comfortably than Gandhi.So is the only reason to be good because of God?
yootaw Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 It becomes an issue of trust in the Lord that he will make sense of it. What does an atheist have to appeal to as a potential source of sense even if not an immediate answer?I think that there is freedom in acknowledging that there may not be an explanation to senseless acts of violence. Sometimes things just are. Good, as well as bad. However, I can understand how this may not work for everyone.
yootaw Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Is it regardless of the existence of God, or because of the existence of God?The only way to answer that question is through the seed of hope.Very interesting question!
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