wayfarer Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 What a profound truth that you discovered in atheism. Proof that truth and goodness can be found everywhere. However, you should narrow it down from "this life is our one and only shot", to "this present moment is our one and only shot." When we realize that the present is all that exists, and all that ever will exist, we learn to experience meaning, happiness, and well-being in the present instead of waiting for God to change us and make things better in the next life. I have no doubt that with this perspective, you experience deeper meaning and more profound relationships than theist who do not perceive life this way. These are things that we need to create now, we are not to passively wait for a better day, but we are instructed to be anxiously engaged in good.My hope is that the present never stops, and I intend to live as if it never will. My potential for good becomes limitless in this hope.I was seeking for the words of a really good reply, and I cannot think of a better one than you just wrote.At some point in my faith journey, I deeply considered -- even as a believer -- that if the afterlife is metaphorical and not actually a thing, can I still hold faith, hope, and meaning in this life? And I came to understand the concept of the 'Eternal Now'. I think Dieter Uchtdorf expressed it very well in his talk "Always in the MIddle" -- something that gets lost when we place so much of our stock into the next life that we forget about the present as really the only time we have before us. 2
yootaw Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 Just curious. What has brought you to "convert" to atheism or de-convert from theism to where you are currently?I started to doubt after reading the old testament. I realized that I didn't believe that God would act in the way portrayed in the OT. And maybe he didn't -- maybe the OT just portrays a cultural view of God that doesn't really represent him during that time period. However, one of the key parts of the OT is the Abrahamic Covenant, which we still hold as a key doctrine. And an idea that seems to be the foundation of the idea of a chosen people. As I really evaluated what felt right to me, the idea of a chosen people seemed less and less likely (especially as I started to travel internationally and interact with amazing people from all over the world). If there is a God, and a purpose to life, it makes sense to me that it would be common across cultures. So, I started to look for what was common across cultures, and it seemed to boil down to learning to love each other, and treat each other good.So, today I pretty much accept that I don't know if there is a God. Part of me really hopes that there is. But, I don't know. What I do know is that I feel best when I treat others with love, For those that do believe in God, I respect you. I'm glad that you are on a path that brings meaning and happiness to your life. 1
TAO Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 Yootaw, why do you think you need to know there is a God to believe in him?
yootaw Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 Yootaw, why do you think you need to know there is a God to believe in him?I don't think that you would need to know that there is a God to believe in him.
Calm Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 As I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't describe myself as an athiest -- I'm somewhere in between. Maybe closer to the athiest side than the believing side. I believe that I can honestly say that your theory stated above has not been a part of my faith journey.I would assume that only some atheists made choices based on fear just as I would assume that some believers made choices based on fear while others in both camps have other reasons for their decision.
yootaw Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 I would assume that only some atheists made choices based on fear just as I would assume that some believers made choices based on fear while others in both camps have other reasons for their decision.I agree.
go_utes01 Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 I started to doubt after reading the old testament. I realized that I didn't believe that God would act in the way portrayed in the OT. And maybe he didn't -- maybe the OT just portrays a cultural view of God that doesn't really represent him during that time period. However, one of the key parts of the OT is the Abrahamic Covenant, which we still hold as a key doctrine. And an idea that seems to be the foundation of the idea of a chosen people. As I really evaluated what felt right to me, the idea of a chosen people seemed less and less likely (especially as I started to travel internationally and interact with amazing people from all over the world). If there is a God, and a purpose to life, it makes sense to me that it would be common across cultures. So, I started to look for what was common across cultures, and it seemed to boil down to learning to love each other, and treat each other good.So, today I pretty much accept that I don't know if there is a God. Part of me really hopes that there is. But, I don't know. What I do know is that I feel best when I treat others with love,For those that do believe in God, I respect you. I'm glad that you are on a path that brings meaning and happiness to your life.God is love. Like I said earlier, not everything in scripture, or more importantly not every interpretation of scripture, is true or "of God." I agree with you that God is no respecter of persons, that is why I really like the LDS perception of God. I think that people all over the world are striving to come unto and understand God more fully, and that we all have the light of Christ and are truly made after the "image and likeness of God," thus we see a lot of commonality - especially the idea of loving one another.
yootaw Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 God is love. Like I said earlier, not everything in scripture, or more importantly not every interpretation of scripture, is true or "of God." I agree with you that God is no respecter of persons, that is why I really like the LDS perception of God. I think that people all over the world are striving to come unto and understand God more fully, and that we all have the light of Christ and are truly made after the "image and likeness of God," thus we see a lot of commonality - especially the idea of loving one another.I am glad that we see eye to eye on such an important topic!
thesometimesaint Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 Agnosticism I get. However Atheism is too self assured for that.
bcuzbcuz Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 Agnosticism I get. However Atheism is too self assured for that.Apparently the word "atheist" was used as a perjorative in the time of the Greeks. And for some here, it is equally so.Claims that atheists are without morals or conscience are ridiculous.My atheism was not won lighthandedly, nor is my concept something that I preach for others. If you want to get where I am, you're on your own, literally.
rodheadlee Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 But is the reason that you do good fear of eternal damnation? Or hope for eternal life?The reason to do good is because it pleases my Heavenly Father. I get joy from pleasing my Heavenly Father because it brings me closer to Him. I get to know Him better. My daily hope is that each day someone, somewhere will have a desire to get to know Heavenly Father, His Compassion, His love for his children. I could not live a day anymore without that love.To be seperated from Him for all eternity would truly be damnation. 1
rodheadlee Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 I started to doubt after reading the old testament. I realized that I didn't believe that God would act in the way portrayed in the OT. And maybe he didn't -- maybe the OT just portrays a cultural view of God that doesn't really represent him during that time period. However, one of the key parts of the OT is the Abrahamic Covenant, which we still hold as a key doctrine. And an idea that seems to be the foundation of the idea of a chosen people. As I really evaluated what felt right to me, the idea of a chosen people seemed less and less likely (especially as I started to travel internationally and interact with amazing people from all over the world). If there is a God, and a purpose to life, it makes sense to me that it would be common across cultures. So, I started to look for what was common across cultures, and it seemed to boil down to learning to love each other, and treat each other good.So, today I pretty much accept that I don't know if there is a God. Part of me really hopes that there is. But, I don't know. What I do know is that I feel best when I treat others with love,For those that do believe in God, I respect you. I'm glad that you are on a path that brings meaning and happiness to your life.What are they chosen for?
yootaw Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 What are they chosen for?Sounds like a good question for a new thread.
Walden Posted January 11, 2013 Author Posted January 11, 2013 God offers real hope and real comfort to those who believe. This real hope and comfort is not a myth, so then why not try to believe? You can only say that you believe that there is no God, as calmoriah points out. What hope does this belief offer you other than the satisfaction of being right? Which hope will never be realized because you will have to die to find out if you are right. I would rather have hope and comfort and be wrong than dread and despair and be right.All you need is the desire to believe for the seed of truth to grow in your heart.I'm probably just fortifying your opinion further, but your opinion gives you good reason to believe doesn't it? When death approaches, you will crave for a good coping mechanism. I am offering you one that works 1000 times better than any drug that I can offer you.I would argue that the it is the "idea" of god that brings hope (for eternal life) and comfort, not an actual god.The fact is that the existence of god cannot be proven, and likewise, I concede that the absence of god cannot be proven. All that we are left with is theories and arguments. When you say that god offers "real" comfort and hope, well, that is speculation, at best. The only thing that we can be absolutely certain of is that it is the "idea" of god alone can bring hope and comfort (for most), and thus it does not matter whether or not god is real. In the end, you are correct, we all have to die to find out whether we are right with regard to the afterlife.Regarding your question of " What hope does this belief (in atheism) offer you other than the satisfaction of being right?" Actually, as an atheist, I am not concerned with being "right," and personally, I would be pleasantly surprised to find out after it is all over that there actually is a loving and forgiving god (though he'd likely punish me for my disbelief). My atheism is not rooted in a need to be "right", but rather, a need to live an authentic life, one with integrity. For me personally, that cannot be accomplished by clinging to a belief system which I do not believe is true. 1
go_utes01 Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 My atheism is not rooted in a need to be "right", but rather, a need to live an authentic life, one with integrity. For me personally, that cannot be accomplished by clinging to a belief system which I do not believe is true.Yet you cling to an idea that you also admit cannot be proven. Why is that?
Walden Posted January 11, 2013 Author Posted January 11, 2013 Yet you cling to an idea that you also admit cannot be proven. Why is that?Yes, it is the same conundrum as the theist, unless you have verifiable proof in the existence of god, which I would love to see.Neither the existence of god, nor the absence of god, can be proven. In the end, it is all theory, either way.
go_utes01 Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 My question is why do you no longer believe that it is true? I have reasons for clinging to my beliefs. I have evidence of their truth. The sort of evidence I am talking about may not be verifiable to others, but it certainly has been verified to me. Personal experience is the strongest evidence an individual can have - at least in my estimation. I am not sure what you mean by "proven." I think Heavenly Father has asked us to prove whether His teachings/gospel are true and provided methods for doing just that. Ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you. By the fruits you shall know. Prove me herewith. By the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things. 1
TAO Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 Yes, it is the same conundrum as the theist, unless you have verifiable proof in the existence of god, which I would love to see.Neither the existence of god, nor the absence of god, can be proven. In the end, it is all theory, either way.That's where you have to ask yourself, is it more useful for me to believe God exists, or more useful for me to believe he doesn't exist, or more useful for me to be not sure. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 This seems to fortify my own opinion that theism is the human result of a very human fear: death.But this begs the question. You exclude any other explanation and then wonder why you come to this conclusion.Science rules out God from the beginning and actively seeks only explanations that are non-theistic and then we wonder why science can't prove God's existence.Think about that one a little bit. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) I was seeking for the words of a really good reply, and I cannot think of a better one than you just wrote.At some point in my faith journey, I deeply considered -- even as a believer -- that if the afterlife is metaphorical and not actually a thing, can I still hold faith, hope, and meaning in this life? And I came to understand the concept of the 'Eternal Now'. I think Dieter Uchtdorf expressed it very well in his talk "Always in the MIddle" -- something that gets lost when we place so much of our stock into the next life that we forget about the present as really the only time we have before us.That is precisely what I was thinking as well. We must live totally for this life and doing and becoming the best we can. That is what I find so rewarding in Mormonism-I have in front of me right now a Tony Robbins flyer which says "Unleash the Power Within! Where the impossible becomes possible! Health, wealth, relationships- 4 steps to TRANSFORMATION!"Everyone wants the same things out of life and if we are seeking those things the afterlife becomes almost irrelevant. If we are being "good" for the right reasons- to fully develop our human potential- all the rest drops away, and the afterlife is just gravy on top of a life well-lived.That's precisely why we have Steven Covey as a Mormon. Those are the values this church engenders regardless of doctrine regarding the after life.In Mormonism we have all that worldly "be the best you can be" stuff and infinitely more, the hope of being with our Father in heaven and becoming like him. That is the most incredible "human potential movement" ever conceived by man!If Tony Robbins et al only knew! Edited January 11, 2013 by mfbukowski 2
thesometimesaint Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 Apparently the word "atheist" was used as a perjorative in the time of the Greeks. And for some here, it is equally so.Claims that atheists are without morals or conscience are ridiculous.My atheism was not won lighthandedly, nor is my concept something that I preach for others. If you want to get where I am, you're on your own, literally.I tend to go with the definition that Atheists believe there is no God. Until we die we can't possibly be that assured, and then it is too late.I've never believed that they were. OTOH Atheists can't claim some sort of moral superiority to Theists.I'm not nearly as concerned with what people believe as what they do. Show me what you do and I'll know what you believe. 1
Walden Posted January 11, 2013 Author Posted January 11, 2013 My question is why do you no longer believe that it is true? I have reasons for clinging to my beliefs. I have evidence of their truth. The sort of evidence I am talking about may not be verifiable to others, but it certainly has been verified to me. Personal experience is the strongest evidence an individual can have - at least in my estimation. I am not sure what you mean by "proven." I think Heavenly Father has asked us to prove whether His teachings/gospel are true and provided methods for doing just that. Ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto you. By the fruits you shall know. Prove me herewith. By the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things.Like you state, I no longer believe it (god) is true due to personal experience and the evidence, or lack thereof, that has been made available to me. When it comes to the "god" question, all of us are working off of personal experience and interpretation of those experiences. I spent my first 24 years in the LDS faith and never had a personal experience or saw evidence that god existed. While in the LDS church, I used the tools that I was taught to know that god is real (pray, study, ponder, essentially embrace the basis of Moroni's Promise), but I never did receive such confirmation. Believe me, it was one of the most gut-wrenching realizations of my lifetime.
Walden Posted January 11, 2013 Author Posted January 11, 2013 That's where you have to ask yourself, is it more useful for me to believe God exists, or more useful for me to believe he doesn't exist, or more useful for me to be not sure.For me, the question is not about usefulness, it is about integrity. Sure, I would love to believe that god exists and that he is infinitely loving and forgiving and has a nice big reward waiting for me in heaven. I've just never seen any evidence of such.In the end, I cannot fake belief in something that I do not believe in my core is real.
Walden Posted January 11, 2013 Author Posted January 11, 2013 But this begs the question. You exclude any other explanation and then wonder why you come to this conclusion.Science rules out God from the beginning and actively seeks only explanations that are non-theistic and then we wonder why science can't prove God's existence.Think about that one a little bit. In pondering the question of god over a lifetime, I have considered many possible scenarios and explanations. That explanation that I offered is just the one in which I have come to conclude as my truth, an explanation that does not require supernatural interference in a world where I have never seen evidence or felt the presence of the supernatural.And again, science does not care about god and is not concerned with proving whether or not he is real. Science is concerned with studying the natural world around us. It studies those things that can be verified by the natural world, and relies on observational data and evidence to do so. Science is concerned with explaining the natural world, not the supernatural. Thus, it doesn't specifically "rule out God from the beginning," it just has never found verifiable evidence in that natural world of such. For me, I do not bow at the altar of science, I adhere to the realm of my personal knowledge and my experience, just as the theist does. Only my experience has never led to the conclusion that there is a god.
cdowis Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 I tend to go with the definition that Atheists believe there is no God. Until we die we can't possibly be that assured, and then it is too late.As one atheist posted, "Even if there is life after death, that doen't mean there is a God." What exactly would he see in the spirit prison that would change his mind?
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