Saints Alive Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 So is the only reason to be good because of God?Without God, or more precisely, without an afterlife it doesn't matter if you are good or bad. There may be temporal reasons to act either way but ultimately it doesn't matter.
Calm Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Its pointless either way. I can be Gandhi or I can be Hitler, without an afterlife it makes no difference. I'll bet hitler lived much more comfortably than Gandhi.As someone who has experienced happiness and unhappiness, it makes a very great deal of difference.
Calm Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 I think that there is freedom in acknowledging that there may not be an explanation to senseless acts of violence. Sometimes things just are. Good, as well as bad. However, I can understand how this may not work for everyone.There is a difference between "may not" and "is not". Agnostic having hope still I get, atheist I don't.
Saints Alive Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 It matters to me.and that's fine but you could do bad just as easily.
Saints Alive Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 As someone who has experienced happiness and unhappiness, it makes a very great deal of difference.only temporally, after you die it would make no difference if you lived happily or miserably.
Calm Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 only temporally, after you die it would make no difference if you lived happily or miserably.But while I am living...which is when I make my decision, it most certainly does matter. The thread is on hope, not the atheist understanding of the long term meaning of life.
Saints Alive Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 But while I am living...which is when I make my decision, it most certainly does matter. The thread is on hope, not the atheist understanding of the long term meaning of life.Which is my point, atheist have nothing to hope for if ultimately their hope mean nothing.
RobertAC Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Penn Jillette has an interesting point of view on what is the difference between and atheist and a theist. Under this definition, I would be an atheist in that I no faith in the existence of a God. His POV is that, in reality, most people are atheists, even if they describe themselves as agnostic because the two definitions answer different questions. However, even as an atheist, I can allow myself spiritual experiences. One can be unhappy when one realizes that there is no empirical evidence to support the existence of a deity, and very little anecdotal evidence of even an afterlife. However, in my case, it has allowed me to enjoy spirituality that is not necessarily bogged down with dogma. I can study Mormonism for example, and have some spiritual experiences doing so. I can study Buddhist texts and have spiritual experiences as well. I can also see the similarities in the two, and their differences. I can appreciate both, and I can do so without worrying about whether God will disapprove of my interest in a certain subject or writing.If one religion can be as correct as another belief system, then there is no need to trifle about the small stuff.
pmccombs1 Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 For those who hold the belief that hope cannot exist within the realm of atheism, what is this mystical "hope" that you speak of? Is it only in relation to eternal life and heaven? Without the hope of eternal life, do you consider this physical life meaningless? How does the idea of eternal life make this physical life more meaningful for you?It is only the certain who can have no hope, because they already know.
Calm Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) Which is my point, atheist have nothing to hope for if ultimately their hope mean nothing.That depends on how one is defining and limiting hope. If you pin your hope on eternity, then you look to eternity for meaning. If you pin your hope on being able to get up in the morning and having a decent day, then if you have a decent day your hope has been fulfilled as much as if your hope was pinned on eternity was fulfilled by waking up after death in the presence of God.Now the long lasting nature of that hope and ultimate meaningfulness a hundred, thousand or million years from now is on a different level, but to say one is actual meaningful hope and the other means nothing is wrong, imo. If it is enough for him to live from day to day, who are we to disagree? There are those who believe in eternity and a loving God who don't have enough hope to get out of bed in the morning, who is in a better state? Edited January 10, 2013 by calmoriah
JeremyOrbe-Smith Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) The old "atheism implies that it doesn't matter whether you're Hitler or Ghandi" argument is pretty tired; an atheist could just as easily say that it is the idea of eternal life that gives people justification for being monsters, since presumably they can make it up in the (endlessly) long run because no one with an eternal soul is ever "really" hurt.On the topic, I like this bit from Orson Scott Card's book Children of the Mind:“Will we be extinguished? What difference does it make then, the ones of us who had plans, what does it matter the work we’ve done? The children we’ve raised?" He looked pointedly at Olhado. “What will it matter then, that you have such a big happy family, if you’re all erased in one instant by that … bomb?"“Not one moment of my life with my family has been wasted,” said Olhado quietly.“But the point of it is to go on, isn’t it? To connect with the future?”“That’s one part, yes,” said Olhado. “But part of the purpose of it is now, is the moment. And part of it is the web of connections. Links from soul to soul. If the purpose of life was just to continue into the future, then none of it would have meaning, because it would be all anticipation and preparation. There’s fruition, Grego. There’s the happiness we’ve already had. The happiness of each moment. The end of our lives, even if there’s no forward continuation, no progeny at all, the end of our lives doesn’t erase the beginning.""But it won't have amounted to anything," said Grego. "If your children die, then it was all a waste.""No," said Olhado quietly. "You say that because you have no children, Greguinho. But none of it is wasted. The child you hold in your arms for only a day before he dies, that is not wasted, because that one day is enough of a purpose in itself. Entropy has been thrown back for an hour, a day, a week, a month. Just because we might all die here on this little world does not undo the lives before the deaths."Grego shook his head. "Yes it does, Olhado. Death undoes everything."Olhado shrugged. "Then why do you bother doing everything, Grego? Because someday you will die. Why should anyone ever have children? Someday they will die, their children will die, all children will die. Someday stars will wind down or blow up. Someday death will cover us all like the water of a lake and perhaps nothing will ever come to the surface to show that we were ever there. But we were there, and during the time we lived, we were alive. That's the truth -- what is, what was, what will be -- not what could be, what should have been, what never can be. If we die, then our death has meaning to the rest of the universe. Even if our lives are unknown, the fact that someone lived here, and died, that will have repercussions, that will shape the universe." Edited January 10, 2013 by JeremyOrbe-Smith 3
RobertAC Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Which is my point, atheist have nothing to hope for if ultimately their hope mean nothing.An atheist may see this in a different way. God may not actually exist, but there is always the possibility that he/she/it does. The next question would be, if God does exist, is his/her/its existence good, bad, or indifferent to my wellbeing. One of the charming aspects about Mormonism is the post-mortem baptism. It recognizes that some people are not going to believe in God in this lifetime -- and that they very well may be incapable of belief. However, if Mormonism is true, then God has provided a way out for disbelievers so that they can choose should there be a Mormon afterlife.
Saints Alive Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 That sounds more agonostic than atheist to me.
TAO Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) RobertAC, yes he provides a way out, but only to a degree. Do you not think the people who don't try and believe when they know how to try to believe will be faulted for that? While they won't be held to the degree of responsibility we will, they will be held responsible for the choices they did make. One of those choices is to try to believe. To what degree it will be I do not know fully, but there will be some responsibility there. Edited January 10, 2013 by TAO
TAO Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) @JeremyOrbo I actually disagree with the Children of the Mind quote. If we die permanently here, our existence in the universe will be close to pointless imho.That's just my opinion, of course. Edited January 10, 2013 by TAO
Saints Alive Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 The old "atheism implies that it doesn't matter whether you're Hitler or Ghandi" argument is pretty tired; an atheist could just as easily say that it is the idea of eternal life that gives people justification for being monsters, since presumably they can make it up in the (endlessly) long run because no one with an eternal soul is ever "really" hurt.On the topic, I like this bit from Orson Scott Card's book Children of the Mind:Im not sure that your logic is sound, In some religions a life of evil results in eternal damnation. So you really have a personal interest in being good even if the people you harm will ultimately be reconciled. In atheism if you are a "monster" after you and the people you harm die it makes no difference.
Calm Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) @JeremyOrbo I actually disagree with the Children of the Mind quote. If we die permanently here, our existence in the universe will be close to pointless imho.That's just my opinion, of course.I don't think so myself...I think there is meaning in the moment if all there is is the moment...the universe may not care, but we do and that is what probably matters most to our choices...what we care about, not what someone or something else does, but it will be a lot, lot, lot less meaningful than if we continue or that which we contribute in some way continues. The meaningful moments all pile on top of each other and add to each and multiple on into infinity.... Edited January 10, 2013 by calmoriah 1
TAO Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 I don't think so myself...I think there is meaning in the moment if all there is is the moment, but it will be a lot, lot, lot less meaningful than if we continue or that which we contribute in some way continues. The meaningful moments all pile on top of each other and add to each and multiple on into infinity....Mmmm... your a better positive thinker than I am then XD. To me, eternity is part of why life turns out to be a positive experience. Without it, I'm not sure I would think it is.
Calm Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Very few people go out and commit suicide if they turn atheist, there may be some that do, but the majority don't nor do they start drinking endlessly or committing other self destructive acts. They must be able to find some source of meaning or purpose in their life. 1
TAO Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Very few people go out and commit suicide if they turn atheist, there may be some that do, but the majority don't nor do they start drinking endlessly or committing other self destructive acts. They must be able to find some source of meaning or purpose in their life.Yeah, I'm sure most don't. They think life still is more positive than it is negative... that's where I disagree with them. 'Pointless' isn't something that's objective, and all =p.Oh btw, chatroom's open, wanna stop by?
RobertAC Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 RobertAC, yes he provides a way out, but only to a degree. Do you not think the people who don't try and believe when they know how to try to believe will be faulted for that? While they won't be held to the degree of responsibility we will, they will be held responsible for the choices they did make. One of those choices is to try to believe. To what degree it will be I do not know fully, but there will be some responsibility there.From my understanding, the reward of leading a religious life is the quality it adds to that life in the here and now. Some people never even think about spiritual/religious matters. They go throughout their lives and may only have that experience at the end -- or perhaps never. I suppose I don't believe that following religion at an early age gets one extra benefits like storing good deeds in a savings account.
yootaw Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Im not sure that your logic is sound, In some religions a life of evil results in eternal damnation. So you really have a personal interest in being good even if the people you harm will ultimately be reconciled. In atheism if you are a "monster" after you and the people you harm die it makes no difference.But is the reason that you do good fear of eternal damnation? Or hope for eternal life?
TAO Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) From my understanding, the reward of leading a religious life is the quality it adds to that life in the here and now.From a temporal perspective, yes.Some people never even think about spiritual/religious matters. They go throughout their lives and may only have that experience at the end -- or perhaps never. I suppose I don't believe that following religion at an early age gets one extra benefits like storing good deeds in a savings account.Well if they never think about it, they never can make a choice, can they? But to those who think about it (and I find most think about it at one time or another), we have some degree of decision to make. Not much perhaps, but we should definitely take it as an issue to consider. Edited January 10, 2013 by TAO
Saints Alive Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 Very few people go out and commit suicide if they turn atheist, there may be some that do, but the majority don't nor do they start drinking endlessly or committing other self destructive acts. They must be able to find some source of meaning or purpose in their life.That is because they usually have some kind of moral code. They just believe that morals are man made constructs designed to help of survive. However, without an after life survival is simply delaying the inevitable.
Saints Alive Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 But is the reason that you do good fear of eternal damnation? Or hope for eternal life?Or because a loving God tells us what is best.
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