Atheism And "Lack Of Hope"

[go_utes01]

I have been significantly more happy since I allowed myself to enjoy life (church service, family, the beauty of the world) and have stopped requiring myself to believe in things that simply do not and should not make sense.

That's my 2 cents.

I am glad that you have reached a place in your life where you are more happy and appear to be open to receiving the blessings that living a good life can provide. Just because something is in scripture, does not necessarily mean that it is correct or "of God." Likewise, just because some person, even a prophet, may claim that God commanded something, does not necessarily mean that He did.

[mfbukowski]

It's not just William Craig who believes that atheism is nihilistic. Plenty of atheist thinkers believe this, including Dawkins, Darwin, Ramachandran, Nietzche, Rosenberg, etc., etc.

Wrong.

I don't think anyone self-identifies as a "nihilist".

[pogi]

If you were fully invested in the fact that this life, even this moment, is all that we have, wouldn't life, and each moment, hold more meaning to you?

If a theist and atheist alike are fully invested in the fact that the present is all that exists, and that this moment is all that we have, than I don't see how an atheist could have any more meaning. The fact is that most of us live our lives living in regret about the past and/or worrying about the future. We rarely live in, and experience the present in it's fullness, and thus, never really live. The only difference between the two as far as meaning goes is that one acknowledges God (more meaning) while the other does not (less meaning).

As a hospice nurse, I can attest from much experience that there is a vast difference in meaning and hope in the end stages of life between an atheist family and a theist. Those who have developed a strong relationship with God, seem to always radiate peace, light, love, even laughter, and brilliant hope. It is an almost palpable light and radiance that fills me with gratitude. I don't see the same hope in others. It is an almost palpable darkness, desperation, and then dispair.

For the atheist, a man's hope is equivalent to the number of days that he has to live. Each day that passes, strips a day of hope from him, and when death is staring him in the face, it becomes increasingly difficult for them and their families to find any hope or meaning in the present moment. I do not see this with the alternative scenario, where hope and meaning is found in this truth: "the sting of death is swallowed up in Christ."

Without the ability to seek forgiveness from some higher power, and thus absolve ourselves of the guilt that results from our misdeeds (that guilt being rooted in evolutionary biology, not god), would we not be more mindful of our actions and their repercussions?

Without the ability of a higher power to absolve toxic shame and guilt, we become trapped in our addictions, mindsets, attitudes, and hurtful actions. Those who apply the atonement of Jesus Christ find that guilt "rooted in evolutionary biology" is a myth. God cures the guilt and shame where evolution provides no antidote.

Edited January 10, 2013 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

I agree with canard. Atheists swim in the same water that we do, they just don't call it the same thing.

Yep

There are atheists which affirm "intuition" as a natural "unexplained phenomenon" as well as esp and all kinds of stuff and they see no need to postulate a God to explain it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake

[Ahab]

On these boards, I occasionally see the sentiment expressed that atheists are without hope, and that theism is the best vehicle in providing "hope."

This idea, apparently held by a large number of theists, is best expressed by William Craig (philosophy professor at Talbot School of Theology), who states that "If God does not exist, then we must ultimately live without hope. If there is no God, then there is ultimately no hope for deliverance from the shortcomings of our finite existence.”

Since embracing atheism, I have always been puzzled by this sentiment, since I consider to myself to have just as much hope as the next person. As a humanist, I have many hopes, though none in relation to any supernatural being or eternal life.

So maybe I don't have hope in the idea of eternal life, but should this hope that theists speak of, and accuse atheists of being without, only apply to eternal life? Is life so sad and depressing that theists have no hope for anything but heaven? Does a theist's life (the physical life that we are currently living) have so little meaning or joy that one cannot imagine hope without the promise of a better or more permanent life to follow?

1) There's a quote in the Bible, from the apostle Paul I think, about some who have no hope and he was talking about having hope of eternal life, or a life beyond this mortal experience. That's what I think most people are thinking about when they say that, like that, I think.

2) Sure you can hope for other things, like hoping that you'll lose weight by not eating so much sweet stuff that make you fat and fatter, or like hoping you'll win the lottery, and what not, but you have no hope of eternal life, do you? When you kick the bucket that's it for you, as far as you know, and you don't have any hope of escaping that, I think.

3) Did you really not think about what most people mean by saying what they say when saying stuff like that, or were you just hoping to get another thought or two that you hadn't thought about yet? When you hear people say that you have no hope you do realize they're speakling in a religous context, don't you?

For those who hold the belief that hope cannot exist within the realm of atheism, what is this mystical "hope" that you speak of?

Oh come on now. Engage your mind, man! There's no good reason you shouldn't have already known the answers to these questions before you asked us to tell you.

Is it only in relation to eternal life and heaven?

Pretty much, yes. You can hope for all kinds of things relative to only this world and time period, but you think this is it as far as you are concerned personally, don't you. How many more years for you now? 60 or 70 tops, and then that's it. I know I would be really sad if I thought that was it for all of my existence.

Without the hope of eternal life, do you consider this physical life meaningless?

Not totally, but very short lived unless someone came up with some way to give me eternal life and the hope of improving myself and my situtation in my life more and more forever and ever.

How does the idea of eternal life make this physical life more meaningful for you?

By helping me realize that I'll get to build on what I develop here, rather than thinking this is it for me and I'll never have more.

[Kenngo1969]

That the religiously devout do good mainly out of fear that God will send them to Hell (or to wherever the Mormon equivalent is) without an electric fan is largely a caricature. (No matter how useful it is, it's still a caricature).

Edited January 10, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Ahab]

That the religiously devout do good mainly out of fear that God will send them to Hell (or to wherever the Mormon equivalent is) without an electric fan is largely a caricature. (No matter how useful it is, it's still a caricature).

A caricature that is applicable to many if not most people and involving what people consider the real Hell to be.

I've been thinking about writing a book to describe Heaven as a good or better or best place to live where people live accordingly, while Hell is a place that is not a good place to be because people do a lot of stupid things there, also in levels with some things being more stupid than some other things.

In other words, anyone who does anything good does it because they don't want to do something stupid, and the more good things they do the more they live like people live in heaven.

The book will be called: On Earth As It Is In Heaven. Look for it at a free bookstore near you, soon.

[go_utes01]

That the religiously devout do good mainly out of fear that God will send them to Hell (or to wherever the Mormon equivalent is) without an electric fan is largely a caricature. (No matter how useful it is, it's still a caricature).

While I totally agree with this, why atheists, or anybody really, would care about the reason or motivation behind a person doing good is beyond me. Does the atheist just want to claim some sort of moral superiority? As for me, whatever reason people have for doing good, is a good reason and fine with me. Personally, I feel best and learn the most when I am doing good not out of fear or expectation of reward, but because of love for my Heavenly Father and my brothers and sisters.

Edited January 10, 2013 by go_utes01

[BlueDreams]

I have kinda skimmed through the last few pages and just wanted to throw in my few cents. I don’t think Atheists are hopeless. I do believe there is limitation to their hope, but that this limitation is not singular to atheist but anyone really. We all hope for things, ideals, etc in this life. That universal. But hope, that I find mentioned in scripture and from personal experience is quite different.

Two of my favorite quotes about it are in Either 12:

whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

From a theistic (or at least an LDS) POV. Hope is tied with faith. The hope in the world and humanity and a better future for coming generations, etc ascribed to humanistic atheism is based on the caveat of faith in humanity. If that faith is compromised, the hope is gone. There are a million ways to reap havoc of a faith in humanity: personal deaths, particularly meaningless or gruesome ones, severe social conflicts/war, cruelty, etc. But again, this is not limited to atheism….this could easily happen to anyone. My bio-dad lost most faith in government systems by living his early years in a place that was in the midst of bloody civil war due in large part by corruption. He doesn’t have much hope in a number of human institutions and he’s a devout Christian. The point about a more human-based or secular hope is that there isn’t any real hope in humanity, future, or one’s personal life to be had without something divine….it’s just easily compromised.

The hope described here is described as having surety, an anchor, and as something that is persistent in one’s life. The depths of this hope are strongly shown through the BoM. It isn’t just available when things are going good, but when things, by all intents and purposes, appear absolutely hopeless: Moroni wrote tons about hope while completely alone and after witnessing the genocide of his entire people. The people of Ammon were found praising God even in the act of being slaughtered. Etc. This hope isn’t based on some condition within humanity, but the condition of our faith and trust in God. It means that it has the potential to remain unswayed in any circumstance and in any place.

On a personal note, hope in God is astounding and life altering. It isn’t a “sign of human fear and human frailty” it is gaining trust in a bigger picture, one step at a time. I’ve had the privilege of watching it occur dramatically in others lives (and out of respect, won’t go into details about it). And I have had the experience of seeing its effect on my own self. It had nothing to do with fear and everything to do with love, comfort, and strength received by God. I’m a psych major, hoping to become a therapist (hehe… hope). To be honest, the changes that I’ve seen easily ascribed to God were of such a nature that I came to recognize the extreme limitations that come from our secular institutions that deal with it. I feel that just as a secular hope in the natural world or human potential is limited, so is theistic hope if it is largely based on that they’ll go to heaven one day. The Hope of God is not limited to some happy place far away from this fallen human experience. It is a trust that there is joy and peace and healing within the moment, within the places we are whether good, bad, or in between. Even in moment that are considered absolutely dire. It is believing that we are all sons and daughters of God and have that great potential no matter where we are. It is knowing and trusting that you are exactly where you need to be. This hope, IMO goes far beyond the momentary hope and beyond even a long term hope, but and continual living hope that expands and lives within our day, past, and future…making us a better person/people.

With luv,

BD

Edited January 10, 2013 by BlueDreams

[Walden]

As a hospice nurse, I can attest from much experience that there is a vast difference in meaning and hope in the end stages of life between an atheist family and a theist. Those who have developed a strong relationship with God, seem to always radiate peace, light, love, even laughter, and brilliant hope. It is an almost palpable light and radiance that fills me with gratitude. I don't see the same hope in others. It is an almost palpable darkness, desperation, and then despair.

This seems to fortify my own opinion that theism is the human result of a very human fear: death.

Essentially, this mythology of resurrection and eternal life is man's coping mechanism to deal with this fear of the ultimate finality of death and the unknown.

PS - thank you for your work as a hospice nurse; I know of few nobler callings in life.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Walden

[BlueDreams]

And with regard to morality and atheism, I am of the opinion that the world might be a better place if we embraced atheism as much as we now embrace religion.

I most certainly am not. I don't think the world would be going to hell in a hand basket either.

1.) I don't think it'll work. Even if you take a natural/instinctive look to humanity, a belief in some sort of higher power (how ever that is described) seems to be a fairly natural for humanity....I don't think religion as a whole can be completely lost. For instance I met a man from China once that did not believe in God and grown up with that belief. He couldn't shake the feeling that there was something that was missing that no amount of logic/good living would clear for him. I'm not saying that all atheists are like that. I'm saying that there would be a significant amount of the population who would not be satisfied to not believe something above and beyond humanity and the natural world.

2.) There is no indication that simply being atheist would make the world a better place. Your series of questions assumes that the individual is humanistic, strongly altruistic (or at least socially minded), and looks forward in their future. Basically it assumes the best of humanity and ignores the worst of what humanity has come up with. IMO, people aren't going to change drastically just because the predominant world ideology changes (yet again). What would occur is what has always occurred: Those socially well off will have fairly comfortable lives. Those lacking will continue to have various disadvantages. There will continue to be conflict, strife, and problems. To say life would be better without religion assumes that religion is a major problem to humanity. It isn't. Humanity is the major problem for humanity. So atheist or not, problems, atrocities, stratifications, etc will continue.

With luv,

BD

Edited January 10, 2013 by BlueDreams

[pogi]

I have kinda skimmed through the last few pages and just wanted to throw in my few cents. I don’t think Atheists are hopeless. I do believe there is limitation to their hope, but that this limitation is not singular to atheist but anyone really. We all hope for things, ideals, etc in this life. That universal. But hope, that I find mentioned in scripture and from personal experience is quite different.

Two of my favorite quotes about it are in Either 12:

whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

From a theistic (or at least an LDS) POV. Hope is tied with faith. The hope in the world and humanity and a better future for coming generations, etc ascribed to humanistic atheism is based on the caveat of faith in humanity. If that faith is compromised, the hope is gone. There are a million ways to reap havoc of a faith in humanity: personal deaths, particularly meaningless or gruesome ones, severe social conflicts/war, cruelty, etc. But again, this is not limited to atheism….this could easily happen to anyone. My bio-dad lost most faith in government systems by living his early years in a place that was in the midst of bloody civil war due in large part by corruption. He doesn’t have much hope in a number of human institutions and he’s a devout Christian. The point about a more human-based or secular hope is that there isn’t any real hope in humanity, future, or one’s personal life to be had without something divine….it’s just easily compromised.

The hope described here is described as have surety, an anchor, and as something that is persistent in one’s life. The depths of this hope are strongly shown through the BoM. It isn’t just available when things are going good, but when things, by all intents and purposes, appear absolutely hopeless: Moroni wrote tons about hope while completely alone and after witnessing the genocide of his entire people. The people of Ammon were found praising God even in the act of being slaughtered. Etc. This hope isn’t based on some condition within humanity, but the condition of our faith and trust in God. It means that it has the potential to remain unswayed in any circumstance and in any place.

On a personal note, hope in God is astounding and life altering. It isn’t a “sign of human fear and human frailty” it is gaining trust in a bigger picture, one step at a time. I’ve had the privilege of watching it occur dramatically in others lives (and out of respect, won’t go into details about it). And I have had the experience of seeing its effect on my own self. It had nothing to do with fear and everything to do with love, comfort, and strength received by God. I’m a psych major, hoping to become a therapist (hehe… hope). To be honest, the changes that I’ve seen easily ascribed to God were of such a nature that I came to recognize the extreme limitations that come from our secular institutions that deal with it. I feel that just as a secular hope in the natural world or human potential is limited, so is theistic hope if it is largely based on that they’ll go to heaven one day. The Hope of God is not limited to some happy place far away from this fallen human experience. It is a trust that there is joy and peace and healing within the moment, within the places we are whether good, bad, or in between. Even in moment that are considered absolutely dire. It is believing that we are all sons and daughters of God and have that great potential no matter where we are. It is knowing and trusting that you are exactly where you need to be. This hope, IMO goes far beyond the momentary hope and beyond even a long term hope, but and continual living hope that expands and lives within our day, past, and future…making us a better person/people.

With luv,

BD

Amen. Beautiful!

I was reminded of the book, "The Hiding Place" while reading your words. The title refers to both the physical hiding place where the ten Boom family secreted Jews from the Nazis, and also to the Scriptural message found in Psalm 119:114 which states, "Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word... "

[Calm]

I have kinda skimmed through the last few pages and just wanted to throw in my few cents. I don’t think Atheists are hopeless. I do believe there is limitation to their hope, but that this limitation is not singular to atheist but anyone really. We all hope for things, ideals, etc in this life. That universal. But hope, that I find mentioned in scripture and from personal experience is quite different.

Two of my favorite quotes about it are in Either 12:

whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

From a theistic (or at least an LDS) POV. Hope is tied with faith. The hope in the world and humanity and a better future for coming generations, etc ascribed to humanistic atheism is based on the caveat of faith in humanity. If that faith is compromised, the hope is gone. There are a million ways to reap havoc of a faith in humanity: personal deaths, particularly meaningless or gruesome ones, severe social conflicts/war, cruelty, etc. But again, this is not limited to atheism….this could easily happen to anyone. My bio-dad lost most faith in government systems by living his early years in a place that was in the midst of bloody civil war due in large part by corruption. He doesn’t have much hope in a number of human institutions and he’s a devout Christian. The point about a more human-based or secular hope is that there isn’t any real hope in humanity, future, or one’s personal life to be had without something divine….it’s just easily compromised.

The hope described here is described as have surety, an anchor, and as something that is persistent in one’s life. The depths of this hope are strongly shown through the BoM. It isn’t just available when things are going good, but when things, by all intents and purposes, appear absolutely hopeless: Moroni wrote tons about hope while completely alone and after witnessing the genocide of his entire people. The people of Ammon were found praising God even in the act of being slaughtered. Etc. This hope isn’t based on some condition within humanity, but the condition of our faith and trust in God. It means that it has the potential to remain unswayed in any circumstance and in any place.

On a personal note, hope in God is astounding and life altering. It isn’t a “sign of human fear and human frailty” it is gaining trust in a bigger picture, one step at a time. I’ve had the privilege of watching it occur dramatically in others lives (and out of respect, won’t go into details about it). And I have had the experience of seeing its effect on my own self. It had nothing to do with fear and everything to do with love, comfort, and strength received by God. I’m a psych major, hoping to become a therapist (hehe… hope). To be honest, the changes that I’ve seen easily ascribed to God were of such a nature that I came to recognize the extreme limitations that come from our secular institutions that deal with it. I feel that just as a secular hope in the natural world or human potential is limited, so is theistic hope if it is largely based on that they’ll go to heaven one day. The Hope of God is not limited to some happy place far away from this fallen human experience. It is a trust that there is joy and peace and healing within the moment, within the places we are whether good, bad, or in between. Even in moment that are considered absolutely dire. It is believing that we are all sons and daughters of God and have that great potential no matter where we are. It is knowing and trusting that you are exactly where you need to be. This hope, IMO goes far beyond the momentary hope and beyond even a long term hope, but and continual living hope that expands and lives within our day, past, and future…making us a better person/people.

With luv,

BD

BD, I love to read what you write, but it is a bit difficult without more spacing between paragraphs...maybe even a few extra paragraphing indents thrown in just for the ease of it. Don't know why it is so much easier to read, but it is.

[Ahab]

This seems to fortify my own opinion that theism is the human result of a very human fear: death.

Somewhat true. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and the fear of death can help motivate someone to find and get to know God. Theism isn't exclusively a (mortal) human result, though, because without finding God no (mortal) human would know God and a Theism that involves true knowledge of God is based on the personal relationships between God and the people who have come to know him.

Essentially, this mythology of resurrection and eternal life is man's coping mechanism to deal with this fear of the ultimate finality of death and the unknown.

Well, yeah, sure, except for your false characterizations of what is actually going on here. Try rephrasing what you said to cut out the word "mythology" and you should be able to understand how someone's knowledge of God and the resurrection would help to cope with their fear of death and what they don't know about what is beyond this mortal existence.

[pogi]

This seems to fortify my own opinion that theism is the human result of a very human fear: death.

Essentially, this mythology of resurrection and eternal life is man's coping mechanism to deal with this fear of the ultimate finality of death and the unknown.

PS - thank you for your work as a hospice nurse; I know of few nobler callings in life.

If you want to use it for fortification in your theory that is your choice. I will use it for fortification in Christ. You are right that the resurrection and eternal life is man's coping mechanism to deal with fear of death. Nice of God wasn't it! It was a gift that I will graciously accept.

[Calm]

This seems to fortify my own opinion that theism is the human result of a very human fear: death.

Essentially, this mythology of resurrection and eternal life is man's coping mechanism to deal with this fear of the ultimate finality of death and the unknown.

I think it historically more about trying to make sense of things, that would include death. People can be motivated to learn because they want to control their environment because they fear the lack of control. Much of scientific endeavour is based on fear...fear of death, fear of illness, etc.

[BlueDreams]

BD, I love to read what you write, but it is a bit difficult without more spacing between paragraphs...maybe even a few extra paragraphing indents thrown in just for the ease of it. Don't know why it is so much easier to read, but it is.

Fixed...that's what I get for copying and pasting. Everytime I try to write in the actual box for too long, I end up deleting the whole thing before I'm done. I like it with spacing as well.

With luv,

BD

Edited January 10, 2013 by BlueDreams

[Calm]

Bless you.

And on the topic, I wonder how many atheists "convert" to atheism because they are fearful of the idea of an omnipotent God holding them responsible and believing he does not exist makes a great coping mechanism for them.

[Walden]

Well, yeah, sure, except for your false characterizations of what is actually going on here. Try rephrasing what you said to cut out the word "mythology" and you should be able to understand how someone's knowledge of God and the resurrection would help to cope with their fear of death and what they don't know about what is beyond this mortal existence.

But in the end, it does not matter whether or not the resurrection or eternal life are true, as the idea of resurrection and eternal life alone are enough to provide the needed comfort to deal with this very real fear. Whether we classify it as a myth or a truth has no bearing on the fact that the idea of eternal life and the benevolent forgiveness of a supernatural creator alone are enough to assuage the fear of death.

[Ahab]

But in the end, it does not matter whether or not the resurrection or eternal life are true, as the idea of resurrection and eternal life alone are enough to provide the needed comfort to deal with this very real fear. Whether we classify it as a myth or a truth has no bearing on the fact that the idea of eternal life and the benevolent forgiveness of a supernatural creator alone are enough to assuage the fear of death.

Do you grasp the idea of the resurrection and eternal life? Is that enough for you? Does your understanding of those issues give you hope that those things are true or possible for you? Are you looking forward to death with anticipation of something more beyond that point for you?

Yes it does matter. Without hope those ideas don't do you any good, because you think of them only as mythic thoughts that may or may not be true, and probably without much may be true about it.. You need something more to have hope that those things are true. When are you going to get it, I wonder, or will you ever?

[Calm]

Whether we classify it as a myth or a truth

Is not the belief there is no God in the same situation? (I am not talking about lacking a belief in a God, but rather possessing an active belief there is no God.) It is as much of a myth as the existence of God. Edited January 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[pogi]

But in the end, it does not matter whether or not the resurrection or eternal life are true, as the idea of resurrection and eternal life alone are enough to provide the needed comfort to deal with this very real fear. Whether we classify it as a myth or a truth has no bearing on the fact that the idea of eternal life and the benevolent forgiveness of a supernatural creator alone are enough to assuage the fear of death.

God offers real hope and real comfort to those who believe. This real hope and comfort is not a myth, so then why not try to believe? You can only say that you believe that there is no God, as calmoriah points out. What hope does this belief offer you other than the satisfaction of being right? Which hope will never be realized because you will have to die to find out if you are right. I would rather have hope and comfort and be wrong than dread and despair and be right.

All you need is the desire to believe for the seed of truth to grow in your heart.

I'm probably just fortifying your opinion further, but your opinion gives you good reason to believe doesn't it? When death approaches, you will crave for a good coping mechanism. I am offering you one that works 1000 times better than any drug that I can offer you.

Edited January 11, 2013 by pogi

[pogi]

duplicate

Edited January 11, 2013 by pogi

[yootaw]

Bless you.

And on the topic, I wonder how many atheists "convert" to atheism because they are fearful of the idea of an omnipotent God holding them responsible and believing he does not exist makes a great coping mechanism for them.

As I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't describe myself as an athiest -- I'm somewhere in between. Maybe closer to the athiest side than the believing side. I believe that I can honestly say that your theory stated above has not been a part of my faith journey.

[go_utes01]

As I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't describe myself as an athiest -- I'm somewhere in between. Maybe closer to the athiest side than the believing side. I believe that I can honestly say that your theory stated above has not been a part of my faith journey.

Just curious. What has brought you to "convert" to atheism or de-convert from theism to where you are currently?