The Church Isn'T Perfect But The People Are?

[Tacenda]

The reason most people who are on the fringe or don't believe anymore, stay in the church, is because of the wonderful, albeit not perfect really, people. Funny how NOM's or Middle Wayers look at it this way and seem to really see the good over the bad, most of the time, personally speaking. Just sayin'....

ETA: OP is going off of the adage "The church is perfect, the people in it aren't".

Edited January 8, 2013 by Tacenda

[Saints Alive]

I guess it depends on how you define perfect, I could see an argument made that nether are perfect.

[thesometimesaint]

The Church is the perfect vehicle for the perfecting of the Saints. Notice it is perfecting not perfect already.

[Tacenda]

I guess it depends on how you define perfect, I could see an argument made that nether are perfect.

Me too. But personally speaking, I see the people differently now in my struggles, and the thing that keeps me going are the people, including several on this board. They make it so I can still feel part of the fold!

[Rivers]

I don't think that the church is perfect either. The church is an organization made up of flawed people. If anything is perfect, it is the gospel. Not the church.

A few weeks ago Mr. Deity was on mormon matters podcast saying that Mormons are among the best people that he knows and then goes on to say that the church is a dangerous organization. I found that very ironic. If the church is able to produce such good people, then it must be doing something right. Even The Book of Mormon musical acknowledges that Mormons are "really really nice." I think that says something about mormon religion.

[Tacenda]

I don't think that the church is perfect either. The church is an organization made up of flawed people. If anything is perfect, it is the gospel. Not the church.

A few weeks ago Mr. Deity was on mormon matters podcast saying that Mormons are among the best people that he knows and then goes on to say that the church is a dangerous organization. I found that very ironic. If the church is able to produce such good people, then it must be doing something right. Even The Book of Mormon musical acknowledges that Mormons are "really really nice." I think that says something about mormon religion.

Some would say that the church is the "gospel". But it truly isn't, if going by the "gospel" means the "the gift of salvation from our Savior".

[3DOP]

Interesting point of view. Many churches use similar adages. "The Church is a hospital, the people are the patients," or something like that for the purpose of taking the focus away from the people and towards the institution. But in some respect, you are saying that maybe there is a reverse trend toward alienation from the institution with attachment to the people?

It seems necessary that both church and people be "lovable". But it seems like it has to start with the people. If I were LDS, I would of course deny that there is a problem with the Church, but I guess I would find it consoling at the same time to note that when people experience thinking we are wrong, they are at the same time torn up about it. Because we are in some way so pleasant and amiable, most folks who come to disagree are loathe to part our company. Looking at it from the outside, I had initially suggested that maybe those middle way people wanted to be the cause of change, but if they just want to hold on to being in the church, while suspending only their own faith in beliefs of the church, I guess I miscalculated.

It is really remarkable that the Mormon people are so admirable that people want to maintain their ties with them even if they begin to disbelieve. I have never experienced that kind of almost desperate remorse over cutting ties with church people with whom I no longer had a shared faith. I call it desperate because it seems to ignore the difficulties of being "one" with those with whom we are at odds on important matters. I tend to believe in dividing up rather than striving for diversity.

Shall two walk together except they be agreed?

---Amos 3:3

I guess the answer to the prophet's rhetorical question is that you can try.

3DOP

[thesometimesaint]

Some would say that the church is the "gospel". But it truly isn't, if going by the "gospel" means the "the gift of salvation from our Savior".

The term Gospel means good news. In the Christian religious sense it is the good news of Christ delivered by his Church.

[cinepro]

The reason most people who are on the fringe or don't believe anymore, stay in the church, is because of the wonderful, albeit not perfect really, people. Funny how NOM's or Middle Wayers look at it this way and seem to really see the good over the bad, most of the time, personally speaking. Just sayin'....

ETA: OP is going off of the adage "The church is perfect, the people in it aren't".

I suspect the NOMs who are comfortable (or even happy) to continue to participate do so because they have stopped hoping for perfection in the Gospel, the Church, or the Church members, and accept all three for what they are.

[Tacenda]

I suspect the NOMs who are comfortable (or even happy) to continue to participate do so because they have stopped hoping for perfection in the Gospel, the Church, or the Church members, and accept all three for what they are.

And the hope to fully believe again.

[Walden]

I am an atheist ex-member who is in agreement that the LDS people are, for the most part, some of the kindest, most helpful and wonderful people that I know. Some of the people that I hold in the highest regard to this day, even in my unbelief, are devoutly LDS.

For me, though, I could not devote my time, energy and efforts to advance an organization, or abide by the laws, rules and teachings of such, in which I had serious doubts with regard to truth claims, leadership, etc. Yes, I could likely just go along with the flow, sit quietly through my Sunday meetings, go through the motions of my calling and just enjoy the good people that I meet in the LDS church, but at what cost?

IMO, "faking it" shows a lack of integrity, no matter how nice and wonderful the people are.

[Tacenda]

I am an atheist ex-member who is in agreement that the LDS people are, for the most part, some of the kindest, most helpful and wonderful people that I know. Some of the people that I hold in the highest regard to this day, even in my unbelief, are devoutly LDS.

For me, though, I could not devote my time, energy and efforts to advance an organization, or abide by the laws, rules and teachings of such, in which I had serious doubts with regard to truth claims, leadership, etc. Yes, I could likely just go along with the flow, sit quietly through my Sunday meetings, go through the motions of my calling and just enjoy the good people that I meet in the LDS church, but at what cost?

IMO, "faking it" shows a lack of integrity, no matter how nice and wonderful the people are.

Well, if one doesn't believe but believes in another Christian faith that could be true, but if the alternate is Athiesm I don't agree with you so much. But I understand that I may be wrong in allowing others to believe I believe wholly in the church. But think that some in the church are still determining their testimonies also. Edited January 8, 2013 by Tacenda

[3DOP]

I am an atheist ex-member who is in agreement that the LDS people are, for the most part, some of the kindest, most helpful and wonderful people that I know. Some of the people that I hold in the highest regard to this day, even in my unbelief, are devoutly LDS.

For me, though, I could not devote my time, energy and efforts to advance an organization, or abide by the laws, rules and teachings of such, in which I had serious doubts with regard to truth claims, leadership, etc. Yes, I could likely just go along with the flow, sit quietly through my Sunday meetings, go through the motions of my calling and just enjoy the good people that I meet in the LDS church, but at what cost?

IMO, "faking it" shows a lack of integrity, no matter how nice and wonderful the people are.

I see what you mean Walden. Absolutely. I am from a different faith tradition and that is certainly how I would look at it. I can't imagine going to Holy Hour (meditation in front of the Blessed Sacrament) while at the same time disbelieving. I would never practice the Catholic faith as an unbeliever.

But there is evidently a phenomenon, perhaps unique to your former church, wherein those who come to a place of disbelief, are still as desirous of practicing as they ever have been and apparently it has something to do with attachment to people and culture. A few weeks ago, on another thread, I even asked what the "middle order missionary" would teach, thinking that they might want to water things down at least or even suspend missions. But I didn't get any indication that these folks are trying to get the missionaries to change their teachings or anything like that. I find it amazing that there is even one, let alone a significant number of LDS unbelievers who would nevertheless still support sending their children on missions for two years. Isn't that an expense to the family? Then there is the tithing, Temple work, and all these other kinds of callings and commitments for them to do on Sundays and weekdays and following the Word of Wisdom too! That they are willing to do all of this as unbelievers is really remarkable to me.

3DOP

Edited January 8, 2013 by 3DOP

[thesometimesaint]

I am an atheist ex-member who is in agreement that the LDS people are, for the most part, some of the kindest, most helpful and wonderful people that I know. Some of the people that I hold in the highest regard to this day, even in my unbelief, are devoutly LDS.

For me, though, I could not devote my time, energy and efforts to advance an organization, or abide by the laws, rules and teachings of such, in which I had serious doubts with regard to truth claims, leadership, etc. Yes, I could likely just go along with the flow, sit quietly through my Sunday meetings, go through the motions of my calling and just enjoy the good people that I meet in the LDS church, but at what cost?

IMO, "faking it" shows a lack of integrity, no matter how nice and wonderful the people are.

I've never asked anyone to fake it. But I do ask that before leaving the Church they do give serious consideration to its truth claims. Leaders like all mortals make mistakes and sometimes serious ones. I think we can agree with and follow their wise counsel and still accept them as flawed human beings try to follow the Lord, just like us.

[Tacenda]

I've never asked anyone to fake it. But I do ask that before leaving the Church they do give serious consideration to its truth claims. Leaders like all mortals make mistakes and sometimes serious ones. I think we can agree with and follow their wise counsel and still accept them as flawed human beings try to follow the Lord, just like us.

Thank you I agree, I would never try to change our church, but see that through the years it has evolved to be a much kinder, more loving environment (of course they do need to work on some things like the culture being worried too much about looks, see the "The Beard" thread) . Just as other faiths evolve, ours can too. And the age of our church is so young that hopefully it'll mean great things can happen. Edited January 8, 2013 by Tacenda

[thesometimesaint]

I see what you mean Walden. Absolutely. I am from a different faith tradition and that is certainly how I would look at it. I can't imagine going to Holy Hour (meditation in front of the Blessed Sacrament) while at the same time disbelieving. I would never practice the Catholic faith as an unbeliever.

But there is evidently a phenomenon, perhaps unique to your former church, wherein those who come to a place of disbelief, are still as desirous of practicing as they ever have been and apparently it has something to do with attachment to people and culture. A few weeks ago, on another thread, I even asked what the "middle order missionary" would teach, thinking that they might want to water things down at least or even suspend missions. But I didn't get any indication that these folks are trying to get the missionaries to change their teachings or anything like that. I find it amazing that there is even one, let alone a significant number of LDS unbelievers who would nevertheless still support sending their children on missions for two years. Isn't that an expense to the family? Then there is the tithing, Temple work, and all these other kinds of callings and commitments for them to do on Sundays and weekdays and following the Word of Wisdom too! That they are willing to do all of this as unbelievers is really remarkable to me.

3DOP

We ask a lot of our members. No doubt about it. From this side of the ledger. We believe we have the Restored Gospel. So anything less is just that, less. We are on a search for truth. While other churches have some, and some more than others, we are the one and only ones that has all the truth and the Keys to the Priesthood that God so far has chosen to reveal. It would be very hard to go from that belief to believe something that is less. So most choose total inactivity or Atheism as the alternatives.

[Tacenda]

I see what you mean Walden. Absolutely. I am from a different faith tradition and that is certainly how I would look at it. I can't imagine going to Holy Hour (meditation in front of the Blessed Sacrament) while at the same time disbelieving. I would never practice the Catholic faith as an unbeliever.

But there is evidently a phenomenon, perhaps unique to your former church, wherein those who come to a place of disbelief, are still as desirous of practicing as they ever have been and apparently it has something to do with attachment to people and culture. A few weeks ago, on another thread, I even asked what the "middle order missionary" would teach, thinking that they might want to water things down at least or even suspend missions. But I didn't get any indication that these folks are trying to get the missionaries to change their teachings or anything like that. I find it amazing that there is even one, let alone a significant number of LDS unbelievers who would nevertheless still support sending their children on missions for two years. Isn't that an expense to the family? Then there is the tithing, Temple work, and all these other kinds of callings and commitments for them to do on Sundays and weekdays and following the Word of Wisdom too! That they are willing to do all of this as unbelievers is really remarkable to me.

3DOP

LDS seem to live their religion and integrate it so much in their lives that if you were to cut it out it's like losing a part of your body, sorry that sounds kinda strange I know. For an example please see some of Valentinus' posts. He was just baptised in a non LDS Christian faith but says Mormonism is still very much a part of him. Also, alot of members that leave the church will turn to Athiesm because they believe that if the the church isn't true nothing is. Edited January 8, 2013 by Tacenda

[why me]

Me too. But personally speaking, I see the people differently now in my struggles, and the thing that keeps me going are the people, including several on this board. They make it so I can still feel part of the fold!

There is no reason why you wouldn't be apart of the fold. Back in the day, before the Internet, there were people like you and they had no problem being apart of the fold if they wanted to be. But with the internet and unknown posters posting a lot of rubbish about the church and how it doesn't welcome this or that type of member it has become more complicated for middle way people. But it isn't the church. Just look at me....I have been a middle way person for years and years and i am welcome in the church. I try to live in reality and not in Internet reality.

Edited January 8, 2013 by why me

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The reason most people who are on the fringe or don't believe anymore, stay in the church, is because of the wonderful, albeit not perfect really, people. Funny how NOM's or Middle Wayers look at it this way and seem to really see the good over the bad, most of the time, personally speaking. Just sayin'....

ETA: OP is going off of the adage "The church is perfect, the people in it aren't".

Because people are in it...it cannot be perfect, it is (as always, or as it should be) a work in process.

[why me]

I suspect the NOMs who are comfortable (or even happy) to continue to participate do so because they have stopped hoping for perfection in the Gospel, the Church, or the Church members, and accept all three for what they are.

And this is my point: back in the day, we had no NOMS. We just had members who either lived the gospel or didn't. Or we had people doing what they thought best. But we had no label for them except active or inactive. It was much better back in the day.

[thesometimesaint]

Thank you I agree, I would never try to change our church, but see that through the years it has evolved to be a much kinder, more loving environment (of course they do need to work on some things like the culture being worried too much about looks, see the "The Beard" thread) . Just as other faiths evolve, ours can too. And the age of our church is so young that hopefully it'll mean great things can happen.

I think that as the Church ages and gets more world wide(Less Utah centric) we'll see less and less emphasis on the culture and more about what it truly means to be a Saint.

[The Nehor]

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble

When you're perfect in every way.

I can't wait to look in the mirror

Cause I get better looking each day.

To know me is to love me

I must be a hell of a man.

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble

But I'm doing the best that I can.

[Calm]

But we had no label for them except active or inactive. It was much better back in the day.

My memory says it was Mormon and Jack Mormon referring to level of activity for the most part, then someone created the Iron Rod vs. Liahona Saints dichotomy and the quest for the clever self label began. Edited January 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

And this is my point: back in the day, we had no NOMS. We just had members who either lived the gospel or didn't. Or we had people doing what they thought best. But we had no label for them except active or inactive. It was much better back in the day.

I live it a little more than most NOM's. I hold a calling, actually two if you count VT'ng and a current TR. Rarely miss Sacrament Meeting etc. So definitely not inactive. I guess I'm a strange duck.

[why me]

Also, alot of members that leave the church will turn to Athiesm because they believe that if the the church isn't true nothing is.

Well this may be true but I am not so sure. I do think that a lot of exmormons claim to be atheists on the Internet when they post without a name. But maybe the vast majority who leaves still believe in god but have moved on. I don't have stats to back what I am posting up but I have known no one who has left the church who has become an atheist.

Edited January 8, 2013 by why me