The Church Isn'T Perfect But The People Are?

[Tacenda]

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble

When you're perfect in every way.

I can't wait to look in the mirror

Cause I get better looking each day.

To know me is to love me

I must be a hell of a man.

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble

But I'm doing the best that I can.

Mac Davis song!!

Oh Lord It`s Hard To Be Humble Lyrics

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble

when you're perfect in every way.

I can't wait to look in the mirror

cause I get better loking each day.

To know me is to love me

I must be a hell of a man.

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble

but I'm doing the best that I can.

I used to have a girlfriend

but she just couldn't compete

with all of these love starved women

who keep clamoring at my feet.

Well I prob'ly could find me another

but I guess they're all in awe of me.

Who cares, I never get lonesome

cause I treasure my own company.

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble

when you're perfect in every way,

I can't wait to look in the mirror

cause I get better looking each day

To know me is to love me

I must be a hell of a man.

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble

but I'm doing the best that I can.

I guess you could say I'm a loner,

a cowboy outlaw tough and proud.

I could have lots of friends if I want to

but then I wouldn't stand out from the crowd.

Some folks say that I'm egotistical.

Hell, I don't even know what that means.

I guess it has something to do with the way that I

fill out my skin tight blue jeans.

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble

when you're perfect in every way,

I can't wait to look in the mirror

cause I get better looking each day

To know me is to love me

I must be a hell of a man.

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble

but I'm doing the best that I can.

We're doing the best that we can

Edited January 8, 2013 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

My memory says it was Mormon and Jack Mormon referring to level of activity for the most part, then someone created the Iron Rod vs. Liahona Saints dichotomy and the quest for the clever self label began.

I am in favor of the four states within the Church: damned apostates, damned pharisees, semi-damned people trying, and the exalted (me and possibly one or two others).

[why me]

My memory says it was Mormon and Jack Mormon referring to level of activity for the most part, then someone created the Iron Rod vs. Liahona Saints dichotomy and the quest for the clever self label began.

I do remember jack mormon when I was out west back when I was in my early twenties. They usually did not live the word of wisdom. But the other labels are unknown to me. Maybe that was a mormon corridor thing. Back east, either you were active or inactive. And inactives still could come to church...they just didn't accept callings and get involved.

[pogi]

IMO, "faking it" shows a lack of integrity, no matter how nice and wonderful the people are.

First of all, I agree with you that faking it shows a lack of integrity. But one can openly have questions, and even doubts without faking faith, while remaining active in the church. I suppose if you have no desire to believe than there is no point. But, if there is even a slight interest, desire, or uncertainty in your doubt, than there is no lack of integrity in remaining active. Indeed, the gospel teaches nothing but honesty and moral uprightness. Integrity blossoms under these principles.

Edited January 8, 2013 by pogi

[why me]

I live it a little more than most NOM's. I hold a calling, actually two if you count VT'ng and a current TR. Rarely miss Sacrament Meeting etc. So definitely not inactive. I guess I'm a strange duck.

Back in the day, you would be considered active and I would be considered inactive. See, you are a better member than me...ain't that a hoot? Much easier back then. No need for many complicated labels complicating people's lives.

Edited January 8, 2013 by why me

[pogi]

I think that as the Church ages and gets more world wide(Less Utah centric) we'll see less and less emphasis on the culture and more about what it truly means to be a Saint.

I certainly hope that this change is seen in Utah as well.

[Tacenda]

Back in the day, you would be considered active and I would be considered inactive. See, you are a better member than me...ain't that a hoot? Much easier back then. No need for many complicated labels complicating people's lives.

Looks are deceiving aren't they.

[Walden]

Well this may be true but I am not so sure. I do think that a lot of exmormons claim to be atheists on the Internet when they post without a name. But maybe the vast majority who leaves still believe in god but have moved on. I have stats to back what I am posting up but I have known no one who has left the church who has become an atheist.

Weird, I personally know two other people (not including myself) who were former LDS (one a returned missionary) who both now claim to be atheist. Their actions and their words appear, to me, to confirm their atheism. The other three people that I personally know who have left the LDS church now attend different churches and consider themselves christian.

As for me, I can assure you that I am a former LDS member (born in the faith and left at 24 years of age) who is now an avowed atheist, and it has nothing to do with any internet reputation of false claims of atheism. I think that we all strive to make sense of the world around us using the best knowledge that we currently have, and for me, a godless world makes the most sense, just as to an LDS believer, the world appears to make the most sense when seen through the eyes of Mormonism.

And yes, I would agree with a previous poster who stated that a significant number of mormons who leave the faith end up being atheist, due, in large part, to the teachings in the LDS church that it is the one, true church on this earth that holds all of the "keys to the kingdom" so to speak. After hearing it for so many years, I guess it just becomes ingrained, so that when one leaves, it is just assumed that it all must be hogwash if the "one and only true church on the face of the Earth" has already been dismissed as hogwash. Upon my own exit from the LDS church, I did, however, study other faiths to see if there was somewhere I might fit; this study led me to conclude that it ("it" referring to both religion and "the supernatural") was all hogwash, and thus, my atheism.

[Calm]

The reason most people who are on the fringe or don't believe anymore, stay in the church, is because of the wonderful, albeit not perfect really, people.

ETA: OP is going off of the adage "The church is perfect, the people in it aren't".

Similar to England's conclusions

Yet one cliche Mormons often repeat is that while the gospel is true, even perfect, the Church is, after all, a human instru­ment, historybound, and therefore understandably imper­fect—something to be endured for the sake of the gospel Nevertheless, I am persuaded by experiences like that one at a stake conference and by my best thinking that, in fact, the Church is as “true,” as effective, as sure an instrument of salva­tion as the system of doctrines we call the gospel—and that is so in good part because of the very flaws, human exaspera­tions, and historical problems that occasionally give us all some anguish.....

And that is where the Church comes in. I believe it is the best medium, apart from marriage (which it much resembles in this respect), for grappling constructively with the opposi­tions of existence. 1 believe that the better any church or organization is at such grappling, the “truer” it is. And I believe we can accurately call the LDS church “the true Church” only if we mean it is the best organized method for doing that and is made and kept so by revelations that have come and continue to come from God, however “darkly” they of necessity emerge....

Martin Luther, with prophetic perception, wrote, “Marriage is the school of love”—that is, marriage is not the home or the result of love so much as the school. I believe that any good church is a school of love and that the LDS church, for most people, perhaps all, is the best one, the “only true and living Church” (D&C 1:30)—not just because its doctrines teach and embody some of the great and central paradoxes but, more im­portant, because the Church provides the best context for struggling with, working through, enduring, and being re­deemed by those paradoxes and oppositions that give energy and meaning to the universe. Just before his death, Joseph Smith, also with prophetic perception, wrote, “By proving con­traries, truth is made manifest.”¹ By “prove” he meant not only to demonstrate logically but to test, to struggle with, and to work out in practical experience. The Church is as true—as ef­fective—as the gospel because it involves us directly in proving contraries, working constructively with the opposi­tions within ourselves and especially between people, strug­gling with paradoxes and polarities at an experiential level that can redeem us. The Church is true because it is concrete, not theoretical; in all its contradictions and problems, it is at least as productive of good as is the gospel....

And after six months, I found that my branch members, initially properly suspicious of an intellectual from California, had come to feel in their bones, from their direct experience, that indeed my faith and devotion to them was “stronger than the cords of death.” And the result promised in Doctrine and Covenants 121:44-46 followed: There flowed to me “without compul­sory means” the power to talk about any of my concerns and passions and to be understood and trusted, even if not agreed with....

It is in the Church especially that those with the gifts of vulnerability, pain, handicap, need, ignorance, intellectual arrogance, social pride, even prejudice and sin—those Paul calls the members that “seem to be more feeble”—can be accepted, learned from, helped, and made part of the body so that together we can all be blessed. It is there that those of us with the more comely and world-honored gifts of riches and intelligence can learn what we most need—to serve and love and patiently learn from those with other gifts.

But that is very hard for the “rich” and “wise” to do. And that is why those who have one of those dangerous gifts tend to misunderstand and sometimes disparage the Church— which, after all, is made up of the common and unclean, the middle-class, middle-brow, politically unsophisticated, even prejudiced, average members. And we all know how exasper­ating they can be! I am convinced that in the exasperation lies our salvation, if we can let the context that most brings it out—the Church—also be our school for unconditional love. But that requires a change of perspective, one I will now sum­marize....

Besides being the repository of true principles and authority, the Church is the instrument pro­vided by a loving God to help us become like him. It gives us schooling and experiences with each other that can bind us in an honest but loving community, which is the essential nurturing place for salvation. If we cannot accept the Church and the challenges it offers with the openness and courage and humility they require, then I believe our historical studies and our theological enterprises are mainly a waste of time and possibly destructive. We cannot understand the meaning of the history of Mormonism or judge the truth of Christ’s restored gospel unless we appreciate—and act on— the truth of the Church....

The message of “Why the Church Is As True As the Gospel” certainly applies to the minorities in the Church, whose efforts to belong and serve are made even more exasperating by the hostility, uneasiness, and even sentimental patronizing by the majority. But the es­say’s main message is to that majority, who set the cultural tone of the Church. We are the ones who must constantly remind ourselves that the Church is not a place to go for comfort, to get our own prejudices validated, but a place to comfort others, even to be afflicted by them. It is a revealed and effec­tive opportunity to give—to learn and experience the meaning of the Atonement and its power to change us through uncon­ditional love. It is a place where we have many chances to re­pent and forgive—if, for a change, we can focus on our own failings and the needs of others to grow through their and our imperfect efforts.

The Church's structures and implementation of the Gospel allow for the creation of flawed (of course, perfection is a process of which we are probably closer to the beginning than the end), but fine individuals. That connection, once felt, would be a very hard thing to turn one's back on in a world where there is many groups to join, but little of true belonging. Edited January 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[Walden]

First of all, I agree with you that faking it shows a lack of integrity. But one can openly have questions, and even doubts without faking faith, while remaining active in the church. I suppose if you have no desire to believe than there is no point. But, if there is even a slight interest, desire, or uncertainty in your doubt, than there is no lack of integrity in remaining active. Indeed, the gospel teaches nothing but honesty and moral uprightness. Integrity blossoms under these principles.

Yes, I agree. My point is more specific to those who have lost all faith in the LDS religion, but keep "faking it" to appease spouses, family members, community members, etc.

I don't consider those who have "a slight interest, desire, or uncertainty in {their} doubt," to be without integrity, as I consider them to be still figuring it all out to the best of their abilities.

[thesometimesaint]

Waldon:

I've been a member for over 40 years. Neither born nor raised in the Church.

I recommend everyone learn all they can about other religions. For me it confirms and strengthens my faith.

[pmccombs1]

But there is evidently a phenomenon, perhaps unique to your former church, wherein those who come to a place of disbelief, are still as desirous of practicing as they ever have been and apparently it has something to do with attachment to people and culture. A few weeks ago, on another thread, I even asked what the "middle order missionary" would teach, thinking that they might want to water things down at least or even suspend missions. But I didn't get any indication that these folks are trying to get the missionaries to change their teachings or anything like that. I find it amazing that there is even one, let alone a significant number of LDS unbelievers who would nevertheless still support sending their children on missions for two years. Isn't that an expense to the family? Then there is the tithing, Temple work, and all these other kinds of callings and commitments for them to do on Sundays and weekdays and following the Word of Wisdom too! That they are willing to do all of this as unbelievers is really remarkable to me.

It is a difficult position to be in. The place of "disbelief" doesn't necessarily have to be atheism, but perhaps a loss of faith or interest in Mormonism. It isn't uncommon that this faith may be regained at a later time, but in the meantime the unbeliever is in the wilderness. Perhaps he or she desires to take a sojourn of faith and explore alternative ideas and beliefs. Perhaps he or she has already glimpsed some other Truth, or perhaps seen some perceived Error in the Church--not simply the failure of imperfect people to execute on an allegedly perfect blueprint, but a fundamentally imperfect premise in the Church itself. Sometimes, by the time this awareness is reached (whether it is justified or not), there are families and children involved.

Now, It is not so difficult for the Mormon convert to turn again to some other faith, for he has wandered in the past; but for the "cradle Mormon," this is a real problem. Being a Mormon in the midst of Mormons, and from a Mormon family is something like being married. There are marriages that last so long as a certain condition persists, but as soon as something changes significantly (the children move away, for example), the marriage dissolves. And so it is with some disaffected Mormons. In order not to distress the family, in order not to fall out of favor and communion with the neighbors; in order to have something to fill that god-shaped void in the lives of children until they mature enough to seek answers of their own, the unbeliever may choose to remain faithful.

In some cases, this is not difficult. In other instances, considerable resentment builds all the while. I imagine that many of the most resentful ex-Mormons are those who remained faithful for a time even after losing their faith in the Church, and they began to regard the Church as a stumbling block to their progress. They chafed under a thing they no longer chose. They desired to take a sojourn in the wilderness, but by then it was too late. Children needed to be accepted by their peers, and some of them looked forward to ordinances such as baptism, priesthood, and missions. How could a lost parent leave these children without support? Yes, they are willing to continue on for the sake of others; for the thirst of the Wanderer does not take the place of the gospel-water (howsoever bitter it now seems) in lives of dependents. Is that remarkable? And when that need to stay at the watering-hole passes, everyone is surprised when a faithful brother or sister suddenly becomes inactive or even worse still, an enemy of the Church.

What is good advice for such Lost ones?

[Calm]

I certainly hope that this change is seen in Utah as well.

Utah is more varied than most think. Local areas can be very homogenous, but go from one area to another and one can find a significant degree of difference in my experience. We are currently in a half rural, lived forever there together with one's extended family and half academic/white collar business people. Interesting combination that has resulted in the most loving and caring group of people I have ever had the blessing to associate with. Edited January 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[pogi]

Well this may be true but I am not so sure. I do think that a lot of exmormons claim to be atheists on the Internet when they post without a name. But maybe the vast majority who leaves still believe in god but have moved on. I have stats to back what I am posting up but I have known no one who has left the church who has become an atheist.

I have a brother in law and 5 of my closest friends (no kidding) who have all left the church and become atheists. Well, one of them is more agnostic than atheist, but he certainly is apathetic. It seems to be a trend with the younger crowds in their 20s and 30s. The internet has changed things big time. It used to be that if someone left the church, it was said to be due to sin or being offended. Not so much the case anymore. My friends and family that have left, feel completely disillusioned and lied to because of historical facts that they were never told about. It is really sad to watch.

[CV75]

The reason most people who are on the fringe or don't believe anymore, stay in the church, is because of the wonderful, albeit not perfect really, people. Funny how NOM's or Middle Wayers look at it this way and seem to really see the good over the bad, most of the time, personally speaking. Just sayin'....

ETA: OP is going off of the adage "The church is perfect, the people in it aren't".

Assuming this is accurate, it is admirable that people can accept the imperfections that abound without compromising the perfection they enjoy themselves.

The Church is the most perfect vehicle in this world to bring people back to Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ simply by virtue of the priesthood keys. Even outside this world, the redemption of the dead is tied to its temples. Beyond that, it can be said that the Church of the Firstborn is perfect.

Who can delineate what standards must be met before the Church, its history, its leaders, etc. are deemed perfect enough to sustain? In one sense even the Son of God wasn’t perfected during His ministry (Luke 13:32), and His work still isn’t yet perfected (D&C 76:106). Yet we call Him perfect; the same can be said of His Church and for certain folks who are led by the Light of Christ and the power and Gift of the Holy Ghost, despite their weaknesses (Moses 8:7; Kings 15:14; Job 1: 1, 8 ).

It is the unresponsiveness to the Light of Christ that makes people imperfect and compounding that is their unresponsiveness to the power of the Holy Ghost; when such are members of the Church, these imperfections render the Gift of the Holy Ghost inoperable and perpetuate their imperfection.

In another thread President Hinckley was quoted, “Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.” The only perfection required is in the matter of making the decision as to whether the Church is true, and if it is true, how to deal with the distractions and detractions from its aims.

Some may say that it is enough to know that Christ is true and that this is sufficient for them to embrace the ambiguities caused by all the imperfection in this world. But this is different than deciding about the Church, and hopefully they will have an opportunity to face this matter as well.

Edited January 8, 2013 by CV75

[Calm]

It is really remarkable that the Mormon people are so admirable that people want to maintain their ties with them even if they begin to disbelieve. I have never experienced that kind of almost desperate remorse over cutting ties with church people with whom I no longer had a shared faith.

Have you lived in a congregation where much activity is shared among the members, where not only the attitude that they are supposed to be one large extended family but that the location of them in more or less the same area allows this family bonding to actually occur? Doesn't happen in all wards, not all wards are as committed to the sense of family as others are. I have been blessed to live in several 'family' wards as an adult, it makes all the difference in wanting to be there with them to worship rather than simply being there to worship. It would be so hard to leave that behind and I can well imagine that some must go to extreme measures to cut such ties once they have experienced them, but no longer want to, at least intellectually.

[Tacenda]

I have a brother in law and 5 of my closest friends (no kidding) who have all left the church and become atheists. Well, one of them is more agnostic than atheist, but he certainly is apathetic. It seems to be a trend with the younger crowds in their 20s and 30s. The internet has changed things big time. It used to be that if someone left the church, it was said to be due to sin or being offended. Not so much the case anymore. My friends and family that have left, feel completely disillusioned and lied to because of historical facts that they were never told about. It is really sad to watch.

And is the same for many who are not LDS too. There is a big trend toward seclurism as everyone knows already. The church with the new missionary age and SS curriculum are trying to combat it right away. Getting the youth to become fully converted before venturing into the world. I see it in my ward currently. There is a young woman that is leaving on a mission next week that I'd have never thought that would go on a mission. She was a little stinker, bless her soul. Just darling, but she's on track and will be terrific!

[Calm]

Maybe that was a mormon corridor thing.

I was in California at the time so a bit bigger than that. It was off of a Dialogue article IIRC, so it would have spread whereever there was a fan of that journal.

[Tacenda]

Assuming this is accurate, it is admirable that people can accept the imperfections that abound without compromising the perfection they enjoy themselves.

The Church is the most perfect vehicle in this world to bring people back to Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ simply by virtue of the priesthood keys. Even outside this world, the redemption of the dead is tied to its temples. Beyond that, it can be said that the Church of the Firstborn is perfect.

Who can delineate what standards must be met before the Church, its history, its leaders, etc. are deemed perfect enough to sustain? In one sense even the Son of God wasn’t perfected during His ministry (Luke 13:32), and His work still isn’t yet perfected (D&C 76:106). Yet we call Him perfect; the same can be said of His Church and for certain folks who are led by the Light of Christ and the power and Gift of the Holy Ghost, despite their weaknesses (Moses 8:7; Kings 15:14; Job 1: 1, 8 ).

It is the unresponsiveness to the Light of Christ that makes people imperfect and compounding that is their unresponsiveness to the power of the Holy Ghost; when such are members of the Church, these imperfections render the Gift of the Holy Ghost inoperable and perpetuate their imperfection.

In another thread President Hinckley was quoted, “Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.” The only perfection required is in the matter of making the decision as to whether the Church is true, and if it is true, how to deal with the distractions and detractions from its aims.

Some may say that it is enough to know that Christ is true and that this is sufficient for them to embrace the ambiguities caused by all the imperfection in this world. But this is different than deciding about the Church, and hopefully they will have an opportunity to face this matter as well.

IMHO the bolded part of your post of Pres. Hinckley makes it terribly difficult for the middle of the roader or NOM. They feel they need to choose either/or and either leave or stay.

[Calm]

I recommend everyone learn all they can about other religions. For me it confirms and strengthens my faith.

For me it informs my faith...which leads to the others in some rather surprising ways I never expected, it has also strengthen my faith in other faiths...if that makes sense, I see the wonders such faith can produce outside the Church's wall, God can work miracles and create wonders in people wherever he wants and thankfully he is very generous with his work and blessings....but I don't do it for any of those reasons, I do it because I am insatiably curious, probably couldn't stop myself if I tried....and perhaps that is a spiritual gift the Lord blessed me with because it certainly has led me to things I wouldn't have found or experienced in any other way.

[Walden]

Waldon:

I've been a member for over 40 years. Neither born nor raised in the Church.

I recommend everyone learn all they can about other religions. For me it confirms and strengthens my faith.

I completely agree, though my study of other faiths led me in the exact opposite direction as you....in helped confirm my atheism.

[Tacenda]

For me it informs my faith...which leads to the others in some rather surprising ways I never expected, it has also strengthen my faith in other faiths...if that makes sense, I see the wonders such faith can produce outside the Church's wall, God can work miracles and create wonders in people wherever he wants and thankfully he is very generous with his work and blessings....but I don't do it for any of those reasons, I do it because I am insatiably curious, probably couldn't stop myself if I tried....and perhaps that is a spiritual gift the Lord blessed me with because it certainly has led me to things I wouldn't have found or experienced in any other way.

And makes you all the more open to others views. I'm trying to figure out a way to attend others faiths without hurting my family or marriage.

[Calm]

My friends and family that have left, feel completely disillusioned and lied to because of historical facts that they were never told about. It is really sad to watch.

"My friends and family that have left, feel completely disillusioned and lied to because of historical facts that they believed were never told about."

In my experience this is more accurate, usually a combination of somethings they probably had not heard, but some they had as in several cases I was living the same life in the same ward and the same teachers and I heard it taught. Sometimes when we are not currently aware of things, it is because we are not currently invested in them enough. There are quite a few teaching moments in the Church I have completely lost track of though I know I must have experienced them since they were so generally out there (could I really have managed to avoid seeing Johnny Lingo? I don't remember ever having seen it, but I know that it was constantly being talked about as being encountered over and over by my friends and family so how did I manage to avoid seeing it if I was a regular church goer....and yet I have no memory of it).

[Calm]

And makes you all the more open to others views. I'm trying to figure out a way to attend others faiths without hurting my family or marriage.

Tell them you are looking for those golden investigators to fellowship.

[pogi]

IMHO the bolded part of your post of Pres. Hinckley makes it terribly difficult for the middle of the roader or NOM. They feel they need to choose either/or and either leave or stay.

I think it is a call to find out more than anything. He truly states that "each of us have to face the matter". No point in staying if it is false, no point in leaving if it is true. We have been taught how to find out. As long as it takes, you will always be welcome. Hinckley is in no way pushing people out the door. He knows it is true, and is therefore confident in his pronouncement to "face the matter." You too can know as he does, but I can assure the strength you find from members of this board will not endure forever. You must know for yourself.