Mixed Lds Messages

[CV75]

That's fine, I just don't understand how members chiding other members for sporting a goatee or beard or for wearing anything other than a white dress shirt contributes to the "egalitarian unity." Likewise, though it ("egalitarian unity") is a lofty virtue, I would argue that the movement under McKay to standardize the dress and appearance "codes" for LDS members was much more a result of publicity and public perception than any stride for this "egalitarian unity" that you speak of.

If the LDS church were genuinely concerned about "egalitarian unity", I would suppose that there wouldn't be such a chasm between the powers and authority given to males as compared to females, nor would the priesthood ban on blacks have lasted until the late 70's.

All my remarks about beards -- that weren't jokes -- had to do with requests and expectations for certain callings in the Church. There is some symbolism for egalitatrian unity therein.

The relationship between dress and appearance, PR, missionary work, and inviting people into a Church where all humanity can share the very same blessings is that there is a gradual building of egalitarian unity not only among the current membership but with those who are not yet members.

There is no need to put a condition on the genuine concern of the LDS Church if the doctrine were understood and appreciated. There are plenty of threads about the highest order of priesthood, which is quite the egalitarian unity and offered to every person ever associated with this planet.

[Garden Girl]

When I converted from Islam to the LDS, church, I was told that I should bring the things I had learned in my old religion to the LDS church and we could share them. I think that concept is an actual part of LDS doctrine.

On the hike, someone who should know better asked me if I still had Muslim leanings! What does a Hijab have to do with what is in my Head?

So, I am mad now! When I came to the church they said I could bring some of the things I liked. But, when I do, I get the most stupid, inane questions. Does anyone see the hipocrisy in this?

There is a gaggle full of stupid, ignorant, and less than tactful people within the LDS Church. I can understand why you would be mad, but don't let the stupid, ignorant, and less than tactful people cause you to want to leave the Church.

Keep wearing your hijab as you see fit. And just let all the busybodies be busybodies and condemn themselves with their actions.

It is saddening to read of your troubles.

If you want to wear the hijab because you like wearing it, or because you think it is cool, (or hot!), or whatever, that is one thing; but doing it because you think it is more modest, I would disagree. I think it is perfectly possible to be modest without wearing the hijab (or immodest while wearing one!). The Church doesn’t have a strict dress code. The general rule is that men should look respectable and women should look modest. But modesty does not require the hijab. I think that most LDS women are being perfectly modest in their dress without having to wear the hijab (or anything comparable). If you wear it because you got used to it and you like wearing it (and give that as the explanation), that is okay, there is nothing wrong with that. But if you do it because you think it is more modest, firstly you are wrong, and secondly you are going to rub people the wrong way, because you are sending them a signal that unless they dress in the same way they are not being “modest!” Modesty is also a cultural thing. I think that you have just acquired a personal taste or preference for wearing it, and you are confusing that with thinking that it is more modest.

Okay, this has gone far enough... I'm getting a little irked at the ongoing references to the stupid, ignorant LDS who don't know anything about other cultures, blah blah blah...

First of all, I have been understanding and sensitive to EllenMaksoud's situation, even supportive of her desiring to continue wearing her "beloved hijab" as she calls it. I can understand that... I love my temple garments and what they mean to me, but then these are worn under my regular clothing... There are people who may or may not be familiar with their meaning (just think of all the jokes about "magic underwear". How ignorant is THAT?!)... I don't condemn the LDS as ignorant or stupid or tactless who might question an LDS member for wearing a hijab, particularly when they see it on the news as something political and religious. It would be something not regularly seen in their setting. Perhaps they are trying to understand... To think otherwise would IMO be naive and unrealistic... and to become "mad" if questioned and condemn others as stupid and ignorant and think they should know better? Why don't non-LDS people know more about the purpose and sacredness of the temple garment?

And while we're talking about ignorance and stupidity... IMO there is nothing more ignorant than Muslim men who would shoot a 15 year old girl with intent to kill her because she advocated for a women's right to be educated... or any of the other extreme views of the Muslim world. I DO understand that not all Muslims hold such extreme views.

And I DO know that centuries ago Islam was a beacon of innovation and progress, and invented numerous enhancements to science, astornomy, art, etc etc. I know about that culture... not the one we see today...

And, it is true that as LDS we seek truth, wherever it is found... that is the underlying concept of "bring the truth that you have and let us see if we can add to it." It does not mean that cultural or religious views that are outside of LDS tenets and/or standards will be adopted or permitted. That would bring only chaos... what I recall being said in conference one time was that this was a difficult thing because of converts who have certain cultural practices that cannot be continued within the framework of the LDS...

I don't think it is realistic of EllenMaksoud to be "mad" at or or condemn others as stupid or ignorant because someone might question her when she wears the hijab... I would hope that she would take it as genuine interest and a desire to understand...

GG

[EllenMaksoud]

For what it is worth. I have a lot to think about now, so this thread no longer has any value to me. What is left must be handled through prayer and thought.

Much Peace

Ellen

[Calm]

It's called regimental with kilts because wearing them that way is only required when they are part of a military uniform.

I am missing the logic unless it is to have an easily available additional weapon with which to stun the enemy.

[Calm]

I just have to say that for a religion that sends people all over the world, it seems that many Mormons are culturally ignorant of the world around them.

It is an American thing. I wish there was a way to send all missionaries to a country not there own in order to create a greater sense of family among the Saints with their fellowmen everywhere.

[Calm]

That's an American, not a Mormon failing. On the contrary we LDS are the most cosmopolitan folks in the country, by and large. In my ward alone, we have US-born fluent speakers of many foreign languages: 3 German, 1 Italian, 2 Japanese, 4 Mandarin Chinese, 2 Portuguese, 5 Spanish, 1 Tagalog (Phillipines), 1 Russian, and 1 Mongolian. There are bound to be LDS wards with similar cultural awareness, and some also with much less. But individuals who know little and care less about other cultures exist everywhere. It's not a unique failing.

If I recall correctly Utha has had for decades an unusually high number of ethnic shops and restaurants due to the high RM population that brings back an interest in their temporary home. One of the things I am constantly surprised at are the numbers of Utahn entrepreneurs who have chosen to create businesses for the benefit of those they formerly taught. IIRC, the first American business allowed in Russia after the wall came down was one established by a former missionary to Russia (who later ran into problems with the mob, but that is another story).

[Calm]

Hey, it was your people that said to me to bring the good from my faith to Mormonism. There are a great many things that Mormons already share with Muslims, but we are so focused on our culture that we do not know it. I only know it because I came from the culture so they are clear to me as I see them. The practice of Hijab is about inner modesty and meekness and both genders should practice it. People just think it means to wear a scarf but it is much, oh so much more. Men are supposed to practice it also but men are very good at forcing women to do things and not do them themselves. What do you think the turmoil about the rape victim in India is about?

Well stated. I wish more Mormons took the time to learn. Went to a conference once where the top Muslim 'churhleader' (can't remember his title at the moment, brain fog) stated that Utah was the best place in the US for a Muslim to live, in part because of the shared social values.

[Buzzard]

Just as a complete aside, one of the largest non-LDS groups at BYU are Muslims, both American-born and Palestinian. Reading an article a while back, one young lady said that BYU was the only school her father would allow her to attend unless she was willing to live at home and commute to college.

I see a lot of cultural overlat between LDS and Islam, though telling LDS women they couldn't drive would go over like a ham at a Bar Mitzvah. Promoting modesty in womens dress is one of those shared values, though obviously Islam, and especially middle eastern Arab culture takes it a lot further than we do.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Buzzard

[Nathair/|\]

I am missing the logic unless it is to have an easily available additional weapon with which to stun the enemy.

It's traditional. 2000 years ago, we used to go into battle wearing nothing but a torc and a...smile...to show how excited we were to be fighting. Roman Christianity has changed some of those customs, but not the spirit of the mad Celtic warriors.

A warrior's torc, warn around the neck.

[Calm]

When men ask why they are asked not to sport a beard for certain callings, symbolism is inevitably mentioned as part of the answer.

Not in the case of my husband,I was there went it happened. He said "would you doit if I asked you to?" and then "I am asking you to" and that was it even though I had said how much I had loved him in it. No explanation at all, just a test of obedience. In fact, in all the discussions I have heard about beards offline, there has only been the test of obedience and the "you will distract other members if you wear one" comments. Edited January 5, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Now, I have much prayer and thinking to do.

You are a good woman.

[EllenMaksoud]

You are a good woman.

There are none good, no not one.

[Calm]

And, it is true that as LDS we seek truth, wherever it is found... that is the underlying concept of "bring the truth that you have and let us see if we can add to it." It does not mean that cultural or religious views that are outside of LDS tenets and/or standards will be adopted or permitted. That would bring only chaos... what I recall being said in conference one time was that this was a difficult thing because of converts who have certain cultural practices that cannot be continued within the framework of the LDS...

I don't think it is realistic of EllenMaksoud to be "mad" at or or condemn others as stupid or ignorant because someone might question her when she wears the hijab... I would hope that she would take it as genuine interest and a desire to understand...

GG

Actually it is to "bring the good".

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,2043-1-3745-1,00.html

And while younger Americans are less knowleddgeable in my experience, I found Russsians to be very, very prejudiced and Canadians were snobby in general. Every country's culture has good and bad elements, I can list things that I love about all of those countries as well...Americans are very friendly, Russians have high regard for the arts, Canadians are kind and polite and have a high regard for their environment, their cities are so clean and beautiful.

[Calm]

There are none good, no not one.

With God all things are possible, even us becoming good.

[Calm]

It's traditional. 2000 years ago, we used to go into battle wearing nothing but a torc and a...smile...to show how excited we were to be fighting. Roman Christianity has changed some of those customs, but not the spirit of the mad Celtic warriors.

A warrior's torc, warn around the neck.

You provided some very enjoyable dinner conversation tonight btw.

[blackstrap]

The unusual sticks out.If two missionaries walk into a biker bar,someone will say something,guaranteed. Same if a tatooed biker walked into sacrament meeting. People might not say anything but thoughts will be flying. The brain and eye are trained to see something out of the usual background.Probably a survival mechanism. Now,can people keep their thoughts to themselves until there is an appropriate time and place to ask questions? We are asking a lot.

[volgadon]

I found Russsians to be very, very prejudiced

That, unfortunately, is true in very many instances.

Russians have high regard for the arts

Absolutely. I would even say that it transcends high regard, that it is part of their being. In my own experience, as soon as you get past the prickly exterior, Russians are friends loyal to a fault. They also tend to be extremely generous with food and possessions, even if they hardly know you.

[Calm]

That, unfortunately, is true in very many instances.

Absolutely. I would even say that it transcends high regard, that it is part of their being. In my own experience, as soon as you get past the prickly exterior, Russians are friends loyal to a fault. They also tend to be extremely generous with food and possessions, even if they hardly know you.

I was trying to convey the idea expressed to me as the Russian soul in a way that didn't sound hokey and gave up and went with high regard. I agree with you on all accounts. We got royally sick once because we were invited to a party by some less affluent and they were so proud of being able to share with us their homemade juice since they had found out we didn't drink that we went ahead...they spoke very little English and it woul have sounded so wrong to say "we think your very kind offering is going to give us food poisoning".....which it did but I would do it again any time.

Otoh, try as hard as I could I could never get a shop girl to smile at me...but they did to a friend of my son's when he was wearing sandals in springtime. We couldn't tell which amused them more...his braces or his shoes, either way they thought he was cute obviously.

[EllenMaksoud]

With God all things are possible, even us becoming good.

Only in Mormonism, only in Mormonism, things have happened to me that are strange and wonderful beyond anything I can explain, and most certainly never expected. I am not questioning the validity of the Mormon experience. My encounter with Holy Spirit, and Heavenly Father have been so profound that it is beyond explanation.

[Yirgacheffe]

If you want to wear the hijab because you like wearing it, or because you think it is cool, (or hot!), or whatever, that is one thing; but doing it because you think it is more modest, I would disagree. I think it is perfectly possible to be modest without wearing the hijab (or immodest while wearing one!). The Church doesn’t have a strict dress code. The general rule is that men should look respectable and women should look modest. But modesty does not require the hijab. I think that most LDS women are being perfectly modest in their dress without having to wear the hijab (or anything comparable). If you wear it because you got used to it and you like wearing it (and give that as the explanation), that is okay, there is nothing wrong with that. But if you do it because you think it is more modest, firstly you are wrong, and secondly you are going to rub people the wrong way, because you are sending them a signal that unless they dress in the same way they are not being “modest!” Modesty is also a cultural thing. I think that you have just acquired a personal taste or preference for wearing it, and you are confusing that with thinking that it is more modest.

She quit wearing it, the only reason she wore it was because it was cold outside and she didn't have a warm winter hat. She got mad because people who should have known her questioned her LDSness because she wore it outside in the cold on a hike. As to the modest thing I don't see how you have any right to castigate someone for taking modesty overboard. If she (and the OP NEVER SAID it was a modesty issue simply a cold weather solution) feels that more covering than the usual is what is comfortable for her why do you feel you should correct her? It's her body to expose or cover as she see fit.

[Yirgacheffe]

Now,can people keep their thoughts to themselves until there is an appropriate time and place to ask questions? We are asking a lot.

Why is that asking a lot? My mother would have called it manners.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Same if a tatooed biker walked into sacrament meeting. People might not say anything but thoughts will be flying.

When I was studying in America, I was one afternoon waiting for an endowment session to start. It was obvious there had been some kind of hold-up, and I assumed that someone had arrived at the temple a bit late for the session. I was right. After a few minutes, in walked two 'tattooed bikers'. I didn't know for certain that they had bikes at the time, but they certainly had the look: long hair plaited into ponytails, long beards, and plenty of tattoos peeking out of both collars and cuffs. I was sitting on the back row, and they sat down right next to me.

You're right that, though I didn say anything, my thoughts were flying ... and they pretty much consisted of the following: What a miracle the Restored Gospel is! It calls men and women from all kinds of backgrounds and situations and brings us together in sacred places where our brotherhood is manifest and where unity and mutual love are forged.

After the session, I struck up a conversation with them in the change room and then walked with them out to their bikes. They had both joined the Church together in Oakland, California, and had then prepared themselves to receive their endowments a year later. They loved the temple and had felt to celebrate afterward by hitting the road to visit as many US temples as they could. They spoke of how finding the Church had fundamentally altered them, bringing them joy and peace they'd never before comprehended.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

Only in Mormonism, only in Mormonism, things have happened to me that are strange and wonderful beyond anything I can explain, and most certainly never expected.

To this I'll just add my 'Amen!'

[why me]

Then do so. Use questions that arise as an opportunity to educate members about other cultures, as well as the values you are committed to.

I think that Ellen's problem is that the hijab is closely linked to Islam. It is not cultural but religious. Many Muslim women do not wear hijab. So, it becomes a choice for many muslim women to show their obedience to the koran by wearing the hijab. So, it is understandable why mormons may be a little taken back by someone who continues to wear it as a mormon or as a member of any other christian faith.

[why me]

I was trying to convey the idea expressed to me as the Russian soul in a way that didn't sound hokey and gave up and went with high regard.

The Russian soul can be considered bi-polar. On the one hand, it can be extremely beautiful showing wonderful poetry, art, literature and design. In Soviet Times, Russians would read poetry as if it flowed in their blood. But on the other hand, their soul can be very cruel. So, we have opposites. When one lives in Russia one can see wonderful people, however, in how they treat each other, it can be rather brutal. Such is the nature of their soul and its reflection on their history.