Mixed Lds Messages

[EllenMaksoud]

If what he does is ever declassified.

Hmmm, maybe I would rather not know what he did. I know that he hates Muslims and I did not realize how much until I converted to Mormonism. He talks to me now.

As Far as CV or CVN is concerned, the N means nuclear.

In modern UK culture, CV means roughly the same as the American Colonies term of Resume.

[EllenMaksoud]

This is the first I have heard of the supposed symbology of not wearing a beard. I had no idea that there are some people who are drawing lines. If there is any division and refusal to unite, it would be on the part of the superficial ones and not the superfacial-hair ones.

I just have to say that for a religion that sends people all over the world, it seems that many Mormons are culturally ignorant of the world around them.

[Stargazer]

If what he does is ever declassified.

My brother served some time in the USAF, in a supposedly non-combat job, but he had a "dark" role in USAF Intelligence that he was on-call for, when needed. Years after his time he told me that while stationed in Greece he had actually "invaded" the Soviet Union three times. On his third "outing" his team was discovered by border troops and came under fire, but they were able to get extracted safely. Apparently they were sneaking across the Turkey-Soviet border and operating temporary electronic listening posts. I never had that much fun when I was in the Army -- and I used to chide him for being in the "soft service". He just smiled.

[Stargazer]

I just have to say that for a religion that sends people all over the world, it seems that many Mormons are culturally ignorant of the world around them.

That's an American, not a Mormon failing. On the contrary we LDS are the most cosmopolitan folks in the country, by and large. In my ward alone, we have US-born fluent speakers of many foreign languages: 3 German, 1 Italian, 2 Japanese, 4 Mandarin Chinese, 2 Portuguese, 5 Spanish, 1 Tagalog (Phillipines), 1 Russian, and 1 Mongolian. There are bound to be LDS wards with similar cultural awareness, and some also with much less. But individuals who know little and care less about other cultures exist everywhere. It's not a unique failing.

[volgadon]

I would lay a lot of money on Jesus having a beard. If his detractors could insult Him for being Greco-Roman by shaving they would have been all over it.

Unless they themselves followed the same fashions.

[why me]

Conformity is highly valued in the LDS religion.

This is not necessarily true. If Ellen would have converted to catholicism and continued to wear the Hijab to church she would have experienced a problem. Likewise if she converted to a protestant faith. Muslim dress is just that...muslim dress and it is worn for a purpose: to show one is a muslim.

I have also seen muslim immigrants in europe show disdain for other muslims over the wearing or nonwearing of the hijab. For example with the somali and kurdish immigrants. The somali women have their head completely covered but the kurdish women can much more liberal. But kurdish christians or arab christians hardly ever wear the hijab.

Edited January 4, 2013 by why me

[why me]

I just have to say that for a religion that sends people all over the world, it seems that many Mormons are culturally ignorant of the world around them.

Actually, if you would have converted to catholicism and continued to dress in a hijab with head completely covered like somaii women do, you may also experience a problem. Likewise if a christian woman who converts to Islam and continues to wear revealing clothing or at least not cover her head, would experience a problem.

Muslim women dress the way they do because of the prophet mohammed and what the koran says about modest dress and how this has been interpreted.

http://forevermuslim...men-wear-hijab/

Muslim women wear hijab—which is more than just a head cover—because God ordered them to do so in two places in the Qur’an, and because Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also ordered it. The Qur’an says in Surah 24, verses 30 – 31 what means:

*{Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them! Allah is Aware of what they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and and their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands fathers, or their sons or their husbands’ sons, or their brothers or their brothers’ sons or sisters sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigor, or children who know naught of women’s nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.}*

These verses tell us that our Islamic dress is not just a matter of covering the head alone, but also of covering the bosom, which is attractive to men, and of lowering the gaze and walking in a way that does not attract attention. Note that the order to lower the gaze was addressed first to men..

Edited January 4, 2013 by why me

[EllenMaksoud]

That's an American, not a Mormon failing. On the contrary we LDS are the most cosmopolitan folks in the country, by and large. In my ward alone, we have US-born fluent speakers of many foreign languages: 3 German, 1 Italian, 2 Japanese, 4 Mandarin Chinese, 2 Portuguese, 5 Spanish, 1 Tagalog (Phillipines), 1 Russian, and 1 Mongolian. There are bound to be LDS wards with similar cultural awareness, and some also with much less. But individuals who know little and care less about other cultures exist everywhere. It's not a unique failing.

Like it's going to happen, LOL, but if I was 17 again, I'd want to go to College to study foreign relations. I've learned a little about Honduran, Kenyan, Thai and Israeli cultures and it has really wetted my appetite. I have a vision that one day, Mormon Missionaries will even be in Saudi Arabia and China out in the open, not trapped in compounds. Just saying.

[EllenMaksoud]

Actually, if you would have converted to catholicism and continued to dress in a hajib with head completely covered like somaii women do, you may also experience a problem. Likewise if a christian woman who converts to Islam and continues to wear revealing clothing or at least not cover her head, would experience a problem.

Muslim women dress the way they do because of the prophet mohammed and what the koran says about modest dress and how this has been interpreted.

http://forevermuslim...men-wear-hijab/

Muslim women wear hijab—which is more than just a head cover—because God ordered them to do so in two places in the Qur’an, and because Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) also ordered it. The Qur’an says in Surah 24, verses 30 – 31 what means:

*{Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them! Allah is Aware of what they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and and their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands fathers, or their sons or their husbands’ sons, or their brothers or their brothers’ sons or sisters sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigor, or children who know naught of women’s nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.}*

These verses tell us that our Islamic dress is not just a matter of covering the head alone, but also of covering the bosom, which is attractive to men, and of lowering the gaze and walking in a way that does not attract attention. Note that the order to lower the gaze was addressed first to men..

Sorry, don't mean to be flippant with you, but I was Muslim for 7 years, and I actually do know why I did what I did in that culture. It gets tiresome to have non Muslims telling me how Muslims live. I lived it. And, there are more kinds of Muslim cultures than you can count.

[why me]

We also have this:

http://www.knowswhy.com/why-should-muslim-women-wear-hijab/

So, if the hijab is so closely linked with Islam and very much a part of that faith, it is understandable if people question why a person who converts from Islam continues to wear the hijab since it definitely identifies that person as a muslim.

[why me]

Sorry, don't mean to be flippant with you, but I was Muslim for 7 years, and I actually do know why I did what I did in that culture. It gets tiresome to have non Muslims telling me how Muslims live. I lived it. And, there are more kinds of Muslim cultures than you can count.

But you can understand why some mormons or other christians would question why you still wish to wear clothes that would identify you as a muslim.

This is what you claimed in your OP:

When I first started attending church, I still wore my beloved Hijab and dressed with great modesty. Almost imediately, I had presure to meet with the missionaries, remove my Hijab and dress more in line with American customs. I was so grateful for the love of Heavenly Father that I somehow decided that I needed to look more American once again, not thinking through what his wishes might be.

I just attempted to bring out that the Hijab is closely linked to the muslim faith and a sign that one is a muslim.

Edited January 4, 2013 by why me

[EllenMaksoud]

We also have this:

http://www.knowswhy....men-wear-hijab/

So, if the hijab is so closely linked with Islam and very much a part of that faith, it is understandable if people question why a person who converts from Islam continues to wear the hijab since it definitely identifies that person as a muslim.

Hey, it was your people that said to me to bring the good from my faith to Mormonism. There are a great many things that Mormons already share with Muslims, but we are so focused on our culture that we do not know it. I only know it because I came from the culture so they are clear to me as I see them. The practice of Hijab is about inner modesty and meekness and both genders should practice it. People just think it means to wear a scarf but it is much, oh so much more. Men are supposed to practice it also but men are very good at forcing women to do things and not do them themselves. What do you think the turmoil about the rape victim in India is about?

[EllenMaksoud]

It is probably time to divorce myself from this topic. I just have to figure out how now.

[why me]

Hey, it was your people that said to me to bring the good from my faith to Mormonism. There are a great many things that Mormons already share with Muslims, but we are so focused on our culture that we do not know it. I only know it because I came from the culture so they are clear to me as I see them. The practice of Hijab is about inner modesty and meekness and both genders should practice it.

One can have inner hijab without wearing the hijab. My point was simple. Since wearing the hijab identifies one as a muslim it is quite natural for people to be confused if one still wishes to wear it as a christian. Now what is good about both faiths is the stress on modesty which is what the hijab is a symbol of in Islam.

But...the hijab and islam are so entwined that wearing it signifies one is a follower of islam.

[EllenMaksoud]

One can have inner hijab without wearing the hijab. My point was simple. Since wearing the hijab identifies one as a muslim it is quite natural for people to be confused if one still wishes to wear it as a christian. Now what is good about both faiths is the stress on modesty which is what the hijab is a symbol of in Islam.

But...the hijab and islam are so entwined that wearing it signifies one is a follower of islam.

I am not ashamed of having been Muslim. I never did stop believing in Jesus Christ when I was Muslim and that got me in trouble from time to time. It get s frustrating because Muslims are focused on the trinity and my Muslim friends are astonished when I tell them that Mormons are not trinitarians. Actually, the difficulty is more a cultural one than a theological one. I sometimes get frustrated because both sides are so blinded by their cultural imperatives.

Another difficulty is that few men are actually Muslim scholars. The Qur'an is actually written in classical Arabic that no one speaks any more so there are very few people around that really understand what the Qur'an says. This is true!

A case in point is that of Surah 4:34 in the Qur'an. To a normal Moderate muslim it means one thing but to a wahabbi it means another. To most Saudi Muslims the last line means that my Husband could beat me if I did not obey. To other Muslims it does not mean that at all.

As a Christian, you know that there are parts of the NT that are just as hotly contested.

It is a big mess and I just pray that Heavenly Father will one day calm spirits and help us to talk as friends.

[canard78]

Unless they themselves followed the same fashions.

Lol, I was about to reply to his post suggesting we call you in. You've found your way naturally.

[Antoni]

Symbology/signs and semantics, can make for difficullt situations.

If I may be allowed to add my opinion.

As has been stated, the Hijab is seen by a great many especially in the Western world as a symbol of Islam. In my country it is seen more as a political rather than religious statement. So I can understand some quesitoning why you still wear it.

Likewise I can understand you wanting to maintain some of your culture and lets be honest a Hijab is a chaste and suitable garment.

However one reason I like the LDS is that the symbols given at the temple that are taken out from there are hidden, those garments are between us and Heavenly Father. Our faith is shown by how we live and what we do, more so that by what we wear. So a highly visible garment like the hijab is extremely juxtaposed to the culture of the church. That is probably why people have said what they said.

Yes it is annoying, I have a moustache, yet to be challenged on it, but I know it'll happen one day. I may well choose to shave it off, as I've not always had one and if I do, I doubt it'll be because of what someone has said at church.

Our discipleship is a long journey taken a step at a time.

Be gracious to those that say things that may hurt, but also do try to see the culture of the church you've joined and also the reasons that culture has developed and is there.

Light, Love and Peace

[why me]

Yes it is annoying, I have a moustache, yet to be challenged on it, but I know it'll happen one day.

Light, Love and Peace

I can't see why anyone would challenge a moustache or even a beard. It can happen but it is not against church policy for men to have beards or a moustache.

[CV75]

This is the first I have heard of the supposed symbology of not wearing a beard. I had no idea that there are some people who are drawing lines. If there is any division and refusal to unite, it would be on the part of the superficial ones and not the superfacial-hair ones.

When men ask why they are asked not to sport a beard for certain callings, symbolism is inevitably mentioned as part of the answer.

[volgadon]

Hey, it was your people that said to me to bring the good from my faith to Mormonism.

Then do so. Use questions that arise as an opportunity to educate members about other cultures, as well as the values you are committed to.

[Walden]

Rather, the ideal for Zion is to being people into egalitarian unity.

That's fine, I just don't understand how members chiding other members for sporting a goatee or beard or for wearing anything other than a white dress shirt contributes to the "egalitarian unity." Likewise, though it ("egalitarian unity") is a lofty virtue, I would argue that the movement under McKay to standardize the dress and appearance "codes" for LDS members was much more a result of publicity and public perception than any stride for this "egalitarian unity" that you speak of.

If the LDS church were genuinely concerned about "egalitarian unity", I would suppose that there wouldn't be such a chasm between the powers and authority given to males as compared to females, nor would the priesthood ban on blacks have lasted until the late 70's.

[DavidB]

On the hike, someone who should know better asked me if I still had Muslim leanings! What does a Hijab have to do with what is in my Head?

So, I am mad now! When I came to the church they said I could bring some of the things I liked. But, when I do, I get the most stupid, inane questions. Does anyone see the hipocrisy in this?

There is a gaggle full of stupid, ignorant, and less than tactful people within the LDS Church. I can understand why you would be mad, but don't let the stupid, ignorant, and less than tactful people cause you to want to leave the Church.

Keep wearing your hijab as you see fit. And just let all the busybodies be busybodies and condemn themselves with their actions.

It is saddening to read of your troubles.

[EllenMaksoud]

Symbology/signs and semantics, can make for difficullt situations.

If I may be allowed to add my opinion.

As has been stated, the Hijab is seen by a great many especially in the Western world as a symbol of Islam. In my country it is seen more as a political rather than religious statement. So I can understand some quesitoning why you still wear it.

Likewise I can understand you wanting to maintain some of your culture and lets be honest a Hijab is a chaste and suitable garment.

However one reason I like the LDS is that the symbols given at the temple that are taken out from there are hidden, those garments are between us and Heavenly Father. Our faith is shown by how we live and what we do, more so that by what we wear. So a highly visible garment like the hijab is extremely juxtaposed to the culture of the church. That is probably why people have said what they said.

Yes it is annoying, I have a moustache, yet to be challenged on it, but I know it'll happen one day. I may well choose to shave it off, as I've not always had one and if I do, I doubt it'll be because of what someone has said at church.

Our discipleship is a long journey taken a step at a time.

Be gracious to those that say things that may hurt, but also do try to see the culture of the church you've joined and also the reasons that culture has developed and is there.

Light, Love and Peace

Now, I have much prayer and thinking to do.

[mathonihah]

When I converted from Islam to the LDS, church, I was told that I should bring the things I had learned in my old religion to the LDS church and we could share them. I think that concept is an actual part of LDS doctrine.

I hope that what I am about to relate does not sound too negative. I've been very ill and may still be somewhat crabby.

When I first started attending church, I still wore my beloved Hijab and dressed with great modesty. Almost imediately, I had presure to meet with the missionaries, remove my Hijab and dress more in line with American customs. I was so grateful for the love of Heavenly Father that I somehow decided that I needed to look more American once again, not thinking through what his wishes might be.

So, it being winter here, it has been around freezing with at times very strong Easterly winds. The other day, We all went for a hike in a very scenic area, so it meant our warmest clothing. So, for me it was warm leggings, long skirt, warm top and arctic coat. I do not own a warm hat so, without thinking I just put my Hijab on in the usual fashion.

On the hike, someone who should know better asked me if I still had Muslim leanings! What does a Hijab have to do with what is in my Head?

So, I am mad now! When I came to the church they said I could bring some of the things I liked. But, when I do, I get the most stupid, inane questions. Does anyone see the hipocrisy in this?

If you want to wear the hijab because you like wearing it, or because you think it is cool, (or hot!), or whatever, that is one thing; but doing it because you think it is more modest, I would disagree. I think it is perfectly possible to be modest without wearing the hijab (or immodest while wearing one!). The Church doesn’t have a strict dress code. The general rule is that men should look respectable and women should look modest. But modesty does not require the hijab. I think that most LDS women are being perfectly modest in their dress without having to wear the hijab (or anything comparable). If you wear it because you got used to it and you like wearing it (and give that as the explanation), that is okay, there is nothing wrong with that. But if you do it because you think it is more modest, firstly you are wrong, and secondly you are going to rub people the wrong way, because you are sending them a signal that unless they dress in the same way they are not being “modest!” Modesty is also a cultural thing. I think that you have just acquired a personal taste or preference for wearing it, and you are confusing that with thinking that it is more modest.

[EllenMaksoud]

If you want to wear the hijab because you like wearing it, or because you think it is cool, (or hot!), or whatever, that is one thing; but doing it because you think it is more modest, I would disagree. I think it is perfectly possible to be modest without wearing the hijab (or immodest while wearing one!). The Church doesn’t have a strict dress code. The general rule is that men should look respectable and women should look modest. But modesty does not require the hijab. I think that most LDS women are being perfectly modest in their dress without having to wear the hijab (or anything comparable). If you wear it because you got used to it and you like wearing it (and give that as the explanation), that is okay, there is nothing wrong with that. But if you do it because you think it is more modest, firstly you are wrong, and secondly you are going to rub people the wrong way, because you are sending them a signal that unless they dress in the same way they are not being “modest!” Modesty is also a cultural thing. I think that you have just acquired a personal taste or preference for wearing it, and you are confusing that with thinking that it is more modest.

I've come to a sober realization. At the highest level, I am a child of Heavenly Father and love Jesus Christ. I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and the book of Mormon is true.

While I was born in America and live here, it feels like I am out of step with American culture. I spend more time thinking about people like Malala and her sacrifice, the welfare of women throughout the world, and how to reach Middle Eastern countries with the knowledge of Jesus Christ. I don't know what will be on TV tonight. If the LDS had Nuns, I would want to be one. Heavenly Father rescued me from the depth of guilt and shame, my life was completely done in every sense of the word. He gave me hope that was not there and want to spend the rest of my life on adult missions, but don't know if it will happen.