Imminent Death Of Evangelical Christianity?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I gave my mother a gift a few months back only because I love her. She didn't do anything to earn or merit the gift. I gave it freely with no expectations on my part.

Interesting. It should be noted that Salvation is not obtained this way. Otherwise everyone would be saved.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

There you go again, accepting the misinterpreted words of Paul over the clear and plain words of Jesus.

Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Sounds like we have to do something to be saved.

Even if it is but believe. That is still doing something.

[ERayR]

I gave my mother a gift a few months back only because I love her. She didn't do anything to earn or merit the gift. I gave it freely with no expectations on my part.

Believe me being a mother she earned anything you do give her or may give her. If you had said she gave you a gift that you didn't earn or merit it would have been a more apt analogy.

Edited January 10, 2013 by ERayR

[Ahab]

I'm really scratching my head trying to find something positive to say about the "evangelical" movement(s).

How's this: If or when it dies, I hope it's only because there is something better to replace it with.

[coolrok7]

There you go again, accepting the misinterpreted words of Paul over the clear and plain words of Jesus. . . .Sounds like we have to do something to be saved.

I’m doing exegesis which is reading out of what is there in the text which is not eisegesis, reading into what is not there. We “do something” as the result of being saved not to be saved (which is not a denial of having good works). We’re sinners deserving of death as we all die.

Mormonism teaches a works righteousness (“. . .there are also many laws we have to obey”. . . note the juxtaposition of the “free gift of the universal and personal resurrection” and “meriting eternal life”) to earn/work for/merit what is known by them as exaltation which is not salvation by grace through faith, the gift of God which is eternal life:

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice. . .This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. . . .(AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. . .GRACE WORKS, Robert L. Millet, p.18)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

As taught here in the 1985 Gospel Principles manual:

REQUIREMENTS FOR EXALTATION

. . .There are specific ordinances we must have received to be exalted:

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the

Church of Jesus Christ.

2. We must receive the Holy Ghost.

3. We must receive the temple endowment.

4. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to the required ordinances, there are also many laws we have to obey to qualify for exaltation--We must . . . (p.291)

This is the way our Heavenly Father became a God. . . .Joseph Smith taught, “it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . .he was once a man like us, . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (p.293; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-46[King Follet Discourse])

Paul teaches differently (no one can or ever has fulfilled the Law perfectly except for Jesus which is why obedience to the Law of God/Mosaic law/Commandments/etc. is not the way to be saved, even though we are to still obey the Law, even in our imperfection—in Christ we are perfect (or complete in Him—Colossians 2) as we are commanded to, “be ye perfect” in Matthew 5:

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Colossians 2:8-12)

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Galatians 2:16-21)

We as believers have an imputed righteousness apprehended through faith (which is the righteousness of Jesus given to us as believers in Him):

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:20-31)

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Romans 4:5-25)

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Romans 10:4-13)

[Vance]

Coolrok, as usual, you are throwing Jesus under the bus.

Unlike those that condemn good works, Jesus praised good works.

Matt 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

. . .

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

And Jesus also taught,

Matt 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The teachings of Jesus are preeminent over all others, including the misinterpreted so called teachings of Paul. You need to stop throwing Jesus' teaching under the evangelical bus and re-interpret Pauls teachings to comply with Jesus'.

[Vance]

Mormonism teaches a works righteousness (“. . .there are also many laws we have to obey”. . . note the juxtaposition of the “free gift of the universal and personal resurrection” and “meriting eternal life”) to earn/work for/merit what is known by them as exaltation which is not salvation by grace through faith, the gift of God which is eternal life:

Sorry, but you are not an authority on what "Mormonism teaches".

Paul teaches differently

Actually, he doesn't.

Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

We as believers have an imputed righteousness apprehended through faith (which is the righteousness of Jesus given to us as believers in Him):

No, the penitent/obedient believers who have been properly baptized have imputed righteousness.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Vance

[volgadon]

I’m doing exegesis which is reading out of what is there in the text which is not eisegesis, reading into what is not there.

Colour me unconvinced. It is a fluid definition, to say the least.

[Alvino]

People, to be sure, have problems with authority and obedience ("why respect my parents if they're going to tell me what I can and can't do ..." "why stay in school if my teachers are going to tell me what I can and can't do ..." etc.). The church, in my estimation, runs the risk of being irrelevant if it doesn't stand for something (http://en.wikipedia....en_Commandments) by teaching some "cans" and "can'ts."

Well, Evangelicals have very strong cans and can'ts but it doesn't seem to be working very well for them. This is what signals what I think is the problem. It isn't that one shouldn't have cans and can'ts but that one has to have a right view of what they are and where they come from, too. Unwillingness to correct on time and to push for social changes is what keeps Evangelicals an old and retrograde approach to religion. Unwillingness to say they were wrong because their cans and can'ts were attempts to follow God constrained by the social conditions they were in. Unwillingness to accept that genuine belief can thrive despite uncertainty and to face that uncertainty directly. Beliefs break, too, if they can't bend.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Alvino

[cdowis]

It is a Biblical truth that we can do nothing to effect our salvation

Do you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation?

May I humbly suggest that you read the red letter edition of the NT, to see specifically what Christ taught about salvation.

Edited January 24, 2013 by cdowis

[EllenMaksoud]

I was evangelical in the years 1974 to 2004. I was a questioner and wanted to find those who would challenge me to live as much like Jesus Christ as is possible. I felt the 1 hour sessions on Sunday cultivated guilt, asked for money, and preached hate. In exasperation, I finally left. I knew I loved God but the rest of it, I just did not know. I became Muslim.

I find Mormon scholarship to be impressive; far beyond what I saw with the evangelicals, or the Muslims.

My son is still evangelical. His interpretation of scripture now sounds foreign and strange to me.

[Five Solas]

I was evangelical in the years 1974 to 2004. I was a questioner and wanted to find those who would challenge me to live as much like Jesus Christ as is possible. I felt the 1 hour sessions on Sunday cultivated guilt, asked for money, and preached hate. In exasperation, I finally left. I knew I loved God but the rest of it, I just did not know. I became Muslim.

I find Mormon scholarship to be impressive; far beyond what I saw with the evangelicals, or the Muslims.

My son is still evangelical. His interpretation of scripture now sounds foreign and strange to me.

As I know I sound foreign and strange to my mom (still a member of the LDS Church, but for all practical purposes, agnostic). I too am evangelical. And for what it's worth, I empathize, EllenMaksoud.

--Erik

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Coolrok, as usual, you are throwing Jesus under the bus.

Unlike those that condemn good works, Jesus praised good works.

Matt 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

. . .

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

And Jesus also taught,

Matt 25:31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The teachings of Jesus are preeminent over all others, including the misinterpreted so called teachings of Paul. You need to stop throwing Jesus' teaching under the evangelical bus and re-interpret Pauls teachings to comply with Jesus'.

Don't forget Christ's charge in Matthew 7: 21...only those who do the "will" of the Father, will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, which is the Celestial Kingdom.

[EllenMaksoud]

http://www.theblaze....g-the-movement/

I must say that my experience with the EV was harsh beyond words. The shouting, the narrow interpretations, the intellectually unsupportable edicts, and then when I sinned, being thrown out and permanently shunned actually violated scripture. I was effectively tried, condemned and hanged before being in court. It was a mob action.

I understand that perhaps not all EV are like that, and I am under a lot of peer presure to let go of that injustice and learn to be loving,sweet and kind. This is good thing for me, and knowing full well from whence my deliverance has come, I am constrained to follow the will of Heavenly Father in a way I never did before.

[Scott Lloyd]

"I have an even bigger problem with self-righteous Christians."

I know what you mean. I met several when I lived in Utah and at BYU. Did you know that chocolate cake is against the WOW.

I was born in Utah and have lived here most of my life and have never had anyone even hint to me with the expectation of being taken seriously that chocolate cake is against the Word of Wisdom.

When I was at BYU I did encounter a few Mormons whom I might regard as self-righteous, but consistent with the demographics of the student body, most if not all were from outside of Utah.

[Calm]

My husband encountered a companion that claimed vanilla was a violation of the WoW due to its alcoholic content, but he was from California, not Utah.

[Vance]

Don't forget Christ's charge in Matthew 7: 21...only those who do the "will" of the Father, will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, which is the Celestial Kingdom.

By no means did I intend my list of a few verse to be all inclusive. I think it is rather OBVIOUS that the entire New Testament is full of "do"/"work"/"righteous" being the avenue for salvation.

It is just those few MISINTERPRETED verses of Paul that throw the Evangelicals off the true path.

I once intended to create an all inclusive list of NT verses that point to activity/works, but I soon gave up because there were just TOO MANY of them.

[coolrok7]

coolrok7, on 17 January 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Mormonism teaches a works righteousness (“. . .there are also many laws we have to obey”. . . note the juxtaposition of the “free gift of the universal and personal resurrection” and “meriting eternal life”) to earn/work for/merit what is known by them as exaltation which is not salvation by grace through faith, the gift of God which is eternal life:

Sorry, but you are not an authority on what "Mormonism teaches". . . .

We as believers have an imputed righteousness apprehended through faith (which is the righteousness of Jesus given to us as believers in Him):

No, the penitent/obedient believers who have been properly baptized have imputed righteousness. . . .

I don’t have to be an “authority” in the Mormon sense to read/understand what the General Authorities in your church claim in its official/proselytizing literature, explaining its teachings. Also by listening to them speak in Conference, attending Mormon Wards/Stakes and taking classes such as Gospel Doctrine (Nov. 1988) over the years of investigating as I was invited to do.

Christianity was established in the first century by Jesus when He told the apostles (minus Judas who was replaced by Matthias in Acts 1) to tarry in Jerusalem and “wait for the promise” fulfilled on Pentecost which was never prophesied to be lost. The interpretation of that being a twist of what Peter said concerning Jesus in Acts 3 concerning the “restitution of all things”:

And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. (Acts 1:4)

Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, that he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:21-26)

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, a prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. (Acts 3:19-26)

The above is not talking about Joseph Smith as it is interpreted in Mormonism:

Joseph Smith’s First Vision

The second cornerstone is the First Vision of the prophet Joseph Smith. . . .This transcendent experience opened the marvelous work of restoration. It lifted the curtain on the long-promised dispensation of the fullness of times. (The Ensign, President Gordon B. Hinckley, February 2004, p.5)

Joseph’s vision of the Father and the Son opened this dispensation. Then came the Restoration of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ with the same organization that existed in the primitive Church, built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets. . . . (The Ensign, President Boyd K. Packer, September, 2005 p.16)

DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIMES

The gleams of prophetic light which * flashed across Emerson’s mind were shining forth with full radiance right at the time in another section of America. God the Eternal Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, had already spoken to that “new teacher—the Prophet Joseph Smith—and had, through him, inaugurated another Gospel dispensation. The decree had gone forth from the heavens that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was given to this Prophet “never to be taken from earth again nor given to another people.” (THE MERIDIAN AND FULLNESS OF TIMES in the book, The Gospel through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.93)

* Emerson had been a Unitarian minister- believed heretical doctrine; became a teacher of philosophy:

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. (2 Timothy 4:1-4)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (Colossians 2:8-15)

Along the same lines the following explanation is taken from the chapter entitled: A MARVELOUS WORK AND A WONDER TO COME FORTH in the book, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by Elder LeGrand Richards, a General Authority:

The Restitution of All Things

In the accomplishment of this promised marvelous work and a wonder, the Lord had in mind a “restitution of all things” and moved upon Peter to so prophesy to those who had crucified Him: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:19-21.). . . .

It was the time of such a complete restitution that Paul must have had in mind when he wrote to the Ephesians:

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he had purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him. (Ephesians 1:9-10.)

It is the pronouncement of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that this is the dispensation of the fullness of times, and through the restitution of all things, the Lord has made provision to “gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth.” (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, pp.34-35)

The “restitution of all things” in Acts 3:19-21 as interpreted by LeGrand Richards, is still future in that it takes place at the Second Coming when Jesus returns for/with His saints to judge the world. This will be when the “restitution of all things” takes place as it is tied into the phrase “. . .whom heaven must receive until. . .” The fullness of the times is about Jesus, not Joseph Smith:

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:7-12)

Paul (chosen by Jesus on the road to Damascus, affirmed by Peter in ministry) declared:

Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. (Galatians 4:1-5)

This was an already accomplished (continuing) fact, “that. . .he might gather together in one” as indicated by Paul (way before the Mormon church came along). Continuing on in Ephesians Paul goes on to say:

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:11-22)

Persevering as a saint, post being saved, is what is called for in living a sanctified life, set apart for works of service to God after being justified (effected by Jesus and His death on the cross).

Affectively I have faith/believe in Jesus for my salvation as a Gentile believer (being grafted in as in Romans 11), a promise of God in my life, not absent of good works because of Jesus:

“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (Galatians 2:19-21)

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. (Titus 3:4-eight

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. (Romans 11:16-18)

The following is what the “MORMON CHURCH” teaches (the Mormon context is not found in the Biblical context) in contrast to Biblical teaching. Resurrection is not necessarily to eternal life but to damnation/eternal or everlasting punishment as well, depending on the individual’s faith or lack of faith at death:

. . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon)

You May Earn Salvation through Christ (THE PURPOSE OF LIFE pamphlet, p.4)

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice. . .This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. . . .(AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. . .GRACE WORKS, Robert L. Millet, p.18)

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:27-28)

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: . . .Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . .And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46)

It’s a Biblical given that one is to be baptized as Jesus commanded (a work of God, not ours, responded to in faith). I accept as an integral part my faith the words of Jesus that you quoted earlier. I didn’t “condemn good works” which are your words Vance, not mine. Jesus is on the throne, not under the bus:

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. (Matthew 28:18-20)

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1 Peter 3:20-22)

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6:3-6)

Good works are a fruit of faith being produced in the obedient heart of a believer because of what God does in them. Obedience carries through from faith, to baptism and beyond. Christian believers are the recipients of “by grace are ye saved, . . . not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works. . .”. In response we walk in good works:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phillipians 2:5-13)

[Vance]

<SNIP>

What a bunch of incoherent rambling.

Was that supposed to be a convincing sermon?

[Vance]

colrook7, some how, thinks that equating the Greek word "chronou" with the Greek word "kairon" is the silver bullet that will kill Mormonsim.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Vance

[cdowis]

coolroc,

Perhaps you can clarify something on faith vs works ==>

Is baptism necessary for salvation?

Edited February 3, 2013 by cdowis

[Anakin7]

Once again late to a Salvation discussion. From my understanding True LDS Doctrine teaches that we Totaly Believe in Salvation by Grace Alone Through Faith Alone if one understands the Anchient Saint/Christian understanding of the word meanings for Grace and Faith. Studies have been done on the anchient meanigs of these words which are within the walls of The Heavenly Jerusalem where God The Father,God The Son, God The Holy Spirit/Ghost, Archangels,Angels,Rightiousness,Truth dwell. Numerous LDS scriptures teach and testify that we are not Saved by our own merits but by the Mercy and Merits of Jesus Christ, however once Saved by The Awesome Atoning Blood Sacrifice Of Jesus Christ we must show that we want to stay Saved and be exhalted by our actions in Worshiping/Serving God and Serving our fellow man, no once saved always saved. From my understanding Lutherans [Which I understand coolrok is] do not believe in once saved always saved but certain things must be done to maintain one's Salvation in Christ Jesus.

I love Ephesians 2:8-9 You have been Saved [past tense] by Grace [charis -unmerited favor which is one of 50 + definitional meanings] Through faith [ Faithfullness,Fidelity,Loyalty, Obediance,Trust along with 15+ other meanings of the word] because of the gift of God [ Jesus Atoning Blood sacrifice for us] . Even Martin Luther said that - " works are Necessary for salvation, but they do not cause salvation, for faith alone gives life". We LDS labor,work, walk in the light as He [Jesus Christ] is in the light so that that the blood of Jesus Christ washes us from our sins.

We are Saved by True Grace through True Faith. As The Late Bruce R. McConkie taught - "Salvation comes in and through his [Jesus Christ] Atoning Blood and in no other way" and that "Salvation is Free".This straw man/yellow journalistic presentation of LDS salvation soteriology as works rightiousness is unbecoming of those who claim Jesus Christ as Saviour yet bear false witness. As Richard Moew stated that we have sinned against you by not speaking the truth.

The Atonement, It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Robes In The Blood Of The Lamb

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited February 5, 2013 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

cdowis:

coolroc,

Perhaps you can clarify something on faith vs works ==>

Is baptism necessary for salvation?

I wasn’t ignoring your earlier question but working on the response to Vance (I briefly addressed it here from that response):

It’s a Biblical given that one is to be baptized as Jesus commanded (a work of God, not ours, responded to in faith). . . .

Which he ignored.

To elaborate on my response, baptism now saves us as Peter declared, in an appeal to God for a clean conscience. It is not faith vs. works but faith producing the works.

Faith produces/precede the good works done post our Justification in our Sanctification. Baptism (a work of God, not ours) is necessary to be obedient to God as a command of God. Salvation though is not of works, not of ourselves in which Mormonism denies by adding, “after all we can do” “meriting eternal life” as taught in the Mormonism of Joseph Smith. Eternal life is the gift of God:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

Not (exaltation to godhood):

You May Earn Salvation through Christ (THE PURPOSE OF LIFE pamphlet, p.4)

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

Baptism is the God given way to respond in indentifying with Jesus’ death. The shedding of His blood is what cleanses us from all our sin in which we are already saved through faith, even prior to baptism such as the thief on the cross who didn’t have the opportunity to be baptized (no vicarious ordinances req’d as taught in Mormonism).

Good works are a response of faith toward God Who is at work in us. As Luther taught:

works are not absent where faith is

[cdowis]

cdowis:

I wasn’t ignoring your earlier question but working on the response to Vance (I briefly addressed it here from that response):

I am very patient. Actually I did not expect a response, and I am not disappointed (see my remarks below).

Baptism is the God given way to respond in indentifying with Jesus’ death. The shedding of His blood is what cleanses us from all our sin in which we are already saved through faith, even prior to baptism such as the thief on the cross who didn’t have the opportunity to be baptized (no vicarious ordinances req’d as taught in Mormonism).

And you know that for a fact, do you? The Bible says nothing on whether he was baptized. He may have been a disciple of John who later went astray. He obviously had a knowledge and good opinion of Christ.

Good works are a response of faith toward God Who is at work in us. As Luther taught:

I am confused. Is baptism necessary for salvation? That is a yes or no question, and you can then elaborate. I have already shown that the "thief on the cross" argument is based on speculation and false assumption. I think Christ was pretty clear on that point, but perhaps I missed something where he said that it was unnecessary.

Edited February 6, 2013 by cdowis

[Vance]

. . . . the thief on the cross who didn’t . . .

Neither the thief on the cross nor Jesus went to heaven that day, but to "paradise". And that "paradise" was not heaven because three days later, Jesus admitted that He had yet to go to heaven.

Hiding false doctrine behind that thief will not work here.