cdowis Posted February 25, 2013 Author Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) Notice that it's only those who disbelieve who are damned. Not those who disbelieve and who aren't baptized.However the same question remains, is a believer who isn't baptized not saved in your view?Edit: As for the John 3 passage, it can't be a reference to baptism that hadn't even been taught yet. He was talking to Nicodemus, a jewish teacher, he wouldn't have understood the phrase "born of water" to mean a "Christian" baptism. Rather, it's most likely a reference to natural birth, as he states in the following sentence, "6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."Further, there is no reference that I know of where "born of water" indicates baptism.I give up.Christ spoke very clearly, and I have nothing to add to His statement. But I guess I am puzzled that you were unaware that John was baptizing at this time, and that Christ Himself went to him for that ordinance. And you think it was not being taught at this time. Amazing.You can have the last word. Edited February 25, 2013 by cdowis
Vance Posted February 25, 2013 Posted February 25, 2013 1 Pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted February 25, 2013 Posted February 25, 2013 1 Pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:It doesn't really mean that. See, he was already talking to people that were saved. Baptism is just something you should do. But you won't be damned if you dont do it.
danielwoods Posted February 25, 2013 Posted February 25, 2013 That person has rejected GOD's council to be Baptized - Luke 7:29-30. If you reject God's council can you be Saved Into The Kingdom Of Heaven ?.In His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHTAnd how do you answer the question. If one isn't baptized (in your view) can you be saved? Or are you damned?
danielwoods Posted February 25, 2013 Posted February 25, 2013 I give up.Christ spoke very clearly, and I have nothing to add to His statement. But I guess I am puzzled that you were unaware that John was baptizing at this time, and that Christ Himself went to him for that ordinance. And you think it was not being taught at this time. Amazing.You can have the last word.So you haven't an answer for my question then? (just curious) "However the same question remains, is a believer who isn't baptized not saved in your view?"
cdowis Posted February 25, 2013 Author Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) So you haven't an answer for my question then? (just curious) "However the same question remains, is a believer who isn't baptized not saved in your view?"I Pe 4 [6] For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.That is why we have temples, and do baptisms for the dead, as mentioned by Paul. The authority and keys for this work was restored on the earth by Elijah, in fulfillment of prophecyMalachai 4 [5] Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:[6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.Every person born on this earth will have the opportunity to accept or reject the ordinance of baptism as it was performed in their behalf on earth in the temple. Believers who refuse baptism can still go to "heaven", but will not be exalted.To answer your question, everyone will have that opportunity, including those who claim that they are believers. And how did Christ answer your question? He made it clear that it is necessary to enter the kingdom of God.To put this in context, there are many mansions, not just heaven and hell but that is for another discussion. Edited February 25, 2013 by cdowis
danielwoods Posted February 25, 2013 Posted February 25, 2013 I Pe 4 [6] For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.That is why we have temples, and do baptisms for the dead, as mentioned by Paul. The authority and keys for this work was restored on the earth by Elijah, in fulfillment of prophecyMalachai 4 [5] Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:[6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.Every person born on this earth will have the opportunity to accept or reject the ordinance of baptism as it was performed in their behalf on earth in the temple. Believers who refuse baptism can still go to "heaven", but will not be exalted.To answer your question, everyone will have that opportunity, including those who claim that they are believers. And how did Christ answer your question? He made it clear that it is necessary to enter the kingdom of God.To put this in context, there are many mansions, not just heaven and hell but that is for another discussion.So it appears that you believe that JS was Elijah in fulfillment of Malachai's prophecy. And I'm guessing again here, that you think that baptism done by proxy is adequate to fulfill the requirement given by Christ for believers to be baptized?How did Christ answer my question? Very simple. All is covered under the blood by those who are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Christ's righteousness is imputed to believers, the moment they are regenerated by the washing of the Spirit. No sin keeps us out of the highest of heavens. Only thing that keeps us out? The unregenerate soul not washed in the blood of the lamb. Are believers commanded to be baptized? Of course. Are they commanded to love one another? Of course. IF we fail (and we will) are we condemned? Of course not. "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."
cdowis Posted February 25, 2013 Author Posted February 25, 2013 As I said, I will give you the last word, except to suggest that you educate yourself what we believe. You are asking some pretty basic questions.
Vance Posted February 25, 2013 Posted February 25, 2013 It doesn't really mean that. See, he was already talking to people that were saved. Baptism is just something you should do. But you won't be damned if you dont do it.Oh, I get it. Scriptures don't mean what they say when what they say supports LDS doctrine. They only mean what they say if what they say can be construed to mean what Orthodox, Protestant, Modern, American, English speaking, Evangelicals want them to mean.
Vance Posted February 25, 2013 Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) So it appears that you believe that JS was Elijah in fulfillment of Malachai's prophecy.Nope. And I'm guessing again here, that you think that baptism done by proxy is adequate to fulfill the requirement given by Christ for believers to be baptized?Do you think what Christ did for you by proxy is adequate to fulfill the requirement given by God? Very simple. All is covered under the blood by those who are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Christ's righteousness is imputed to believers, the moment they are regenerated by the washing of the Spirit. No sin keeps us out of the highest of heavens. Only thing that keeps us out? The unregenerate soul not washed in the blood of the lamb.So, can I take it that you do believe that what Christ did for you by proxy is adequate?By the way, can you provide a scripture to support your presumption? (I can't find a verse that claims that "Christ's righteousness is imputed to believers". I think you are taking liberty with scripture.) Are believers commanded to be baptized? Of course. Are they commanded to love one another? Of course. IF we fail (and we will) are we condemned? Of course not."There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."Spoke of those who were baptized, so it doesn't support your presumption. Edited February 25, 2013 by Vance
Anakin7 Posted February 26, 2013 Posted February 26, 2013 And how do you answer the question. If one isn't baptized (in your view) can you be saved? Or are you damned?Question has been answered by other LDS JEDI KNIGHT'SIn His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHT
danielwoods Posted February 26, 2013 Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) Nope.Do you think what Christ did for you by proxy is adequate to fulfill the requirement given by God?So, can I take it that you do believe that what Christ did for you by proxy is adequate?By the way, can you provide a scripture to support your presumption? (I can't find a verse that claims that "Christ's righteousness is imputed to believers". I think you are taking liberty with scripture.)Spoke of those who were baptized, so it doesn't support your presumption.1) of course Christ's action was adequate to fulfill the requirement given by God. (edit: The difference being that baptism by proxy isn't done by Christ, nor can one "believe by proxy" if that's even a term. In fact, belief and regeneration is individually based, and by extension there is no basis to think that baptism is any different.)2) Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.Imputation of Christ's righteousness explained:http://www.abideinch...ys/imputed.html3) Sorry, those who are "in Christ" has no reference to baptism or not. Rather it's a reference to those who have believed, such as those in Acts 10, who hadn't been baptized and yet had received the Holy Spirit in the same way that Peter had. Regeneration by the Spirit and being "in Christ" comes before being baptized, not after. Edited February 26, 2013 by danielwoods
Vance Posted February 26, 2013 Posted February 26, 2013 1) of course Christ's action was adequate to fulfill the requirement given by God. (edit: The difference being that baptism by proxy isn't done by Christ, nor can one "believe by proxy" if that's even a term. In fact, belief and regeneration is individually based, and by extension there is no basis to think that baptism is any different.)Wrong! There is a basis to think that baptism is different. That basis is scripture and revelation. 2) Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.Ah, but it doesn't say what you claimed. It doesn't say the Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer.You are violating one of the fundamental tenents of Orthodox, Protestant, Modern, American, English speaking, Evangelicalicism, that is "sola scriptura". The scriptures don't say what you claimed, so you are falsely representing them.Imputation of Christ's righteousness explained:http://www.abideinch...ys/imputed.htmlWell, since it isn't found in the Bible, I will not waste my time reading your link. 3) Sorry, those who are "in Christ" has no reference to baptism or not.Of course it does. If Baptism is a requirement as Christ himself said, then all those "in Christ" were baptized as part of the process of getting them there. Simple logic, really. Rather it's a reference to those who have believed, such as those in Acts 10, who hadn't been baptized and yet had received the Holy Spirit in the same way that Peter had.Again, you are misrepresenting what the scriptures actually say. It says NOTHING abount them receiveing the Holy Ghost "in the same way that Peter had. It simple reports that those people had "received the Holy Ghose as well as we". And of course you want to negelect the important thing that Peter was saying, that is "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized.SO!!!CONTRARY to your presumption. Acts 10 is supporting the LDS position. Regeneration by the Spirit and being "in Christ" comes before being baptized, not after.Not so, Acts 19 shows otherwise.
Anakin7 Posted February 26, 2013 Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) From My LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive : http://www.njupc.com...aptismnotes.htm In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHT Edited February 26, 2013 by Anakin7
danielwoods Posted February 26, 2013 Posted February 26, 2013 Wrong! There is a basis to think that baptism is different. That basis is scripture and revelation.Ah, but it doesn't say what you claimed. It doesn't say the Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer.You are violating one of the fundamental tenents of Orthodox, Protestant, Modern, American, English speaking, Evangelicalicism, that is "sola scriptura". The scriptures don't say what you claimed, so you are falsely representing them.Well, since it isn't found in the Bible, I will not waste my time reading your link.Of course it does. If Baptism is a requirement as Christ himself said, then all those "in Christ" were baptized as part of the process of getting them there. Simple logic, really.Again, you are misrepresenting what the scriptures actually say. It says NOTHING abount them receiveing the Holy Ghost "in the same way that Peter had. It simple reports that those people had "received the Holy Ghose as well as we". And of course you want to negelect the important thing that Peter was saying, that is "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized.SO!!!CONTRARY to your presumption. Acts 10 is supporting the LDS position.Not so, Acts 19 shows otherwise.First, Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the HolySpirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”Recall that in Acts 2 they received the Holy Spirit in the same way. No one laid hands on them it just happened. Want to dispute that? it really doesn't matter to me. The pattern, Belief, regeneration by the Holy Spirit, and then baptism. Acts 19:4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them,the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied."Same pattern here. Belief, Repentance/regeneration, and baptism. If your point is to say that baptism is necessary for salvation it's not here. Rather the same pattern is throughout the bible.
danielwoods Posted February 26, 2013 Posted February 26, 2013 From My LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive : http://www.njupc.com...aptismnotes.htm In His Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS JEDI KNIGHTThere is no dispute that we as believers should be baptized. That Jesus commanded it. Yes. The dispute is whether or not one is saved or not if they haven't been baptized. I can't find anything to support the idea that God will condemn those to hell if they didn't get baptized.
Anakin7 Posted February 26, 2013 Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) From My LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive - http://www.bebaptized.org/ In His Debt/graceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHT Edited February 26, 2013 by Anakin7 1
Vance Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 First, Acts 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the HolySpirit fell on all who heard the word.45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”Sorry, but Peter was baptized PRIOR to his receiveing the Holy Ghost.So, your argument fails. Recall that in Acts 2 they received the Holy Spirit in the same way. No one laid hands on them it just happened. Want to dispute that? it really doesn't matter to me.The hand had been laid upon the Apostles by Jesus himself.So, your argument fails, AGAIN. The pattern, Belief, regeneration by the Holy Spirit, and then baptism.Nope. Acts 19:4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.6 When Paul placed his hands on them,the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied."Same pattern here. Belief, Repentance/regeneration, and baptism. Nope. Baptism first, then the Holy Ghost.So, your argument fails, AGAIN!If your point is to say that baptism is necessary for salvation it's not here. Rather the same pattern is throughout the bible. It has already been shown. And you aren't capable of showing that it isn't.So, your argument fails, AGAIN!Jesus said Baptism was required. I take his word for it.
danielwoods Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 Sorry, but Peter was baptized PRIOR to his receiveing the Holy Ghost.So, your argument fails.The hand had been laid upon the Apostles by Jesus himself.So, your argument fails, AGAIN.Nope.Nope. Baptism first, then the Holy Ghost.So, your argument fails, AGAIN!It has already been shown. And you aren't capable of showing that it isn't.So, your argument fails, AGAIN!Jesus said Baptism was required. I take his word for it.It's interesting that you disagree with Peter, who stated that they received the Spirit just as he had. Since my arguments have failed. I will stand with Peter, and John who wrote: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."
Anakin7 Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 It's interesting that you disagree with Peter, who stated that they received the Spirit just as he had.Since my arguments have failed. I will stand with Peter, and John who wrote: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them." I believe that "Believes" is in the present tense in the greek which supports an ongoing action which True Belief includes Baptim by Water by an Authorized servant. Did you read my last link above ?.In His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDSJEDI KNIGHT
Anakin7 Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) From my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive - http://www.bible.ca/...ons-refuted.htmIn His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHT Edited February 28, 2013 by Anakin7
danielwoods Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 I believe that "Believes" is in the present tense in the greek which supports an ongoing action which True Belief includes Baptim by Water by an Authorized servant. Did you read my last link above ?.In His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDSJEDI KNIGHTI did read your links, however it's difficult to have a discussion with just links. And I agree, it's in the present tense even in the English. However, there nothing in there about baptism or an authorized servant. My question remains:"There is no dispute that we as believers should be baptized. That Jesus commanded it. Yes. The dispute is whether or not one is saved or not if they haven't been baptized. I can't find anything to support the idea that God will condemn those to hell if they didn't get baptized."
Anakin7 Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 There is nothing in there [The Links I posted] about being Baptized [in Water ] ???. True no authorized sevant is mention but a read of N.T and post N.T history shows one must have authority to Baptize in Water for remmission of your sins.In nHis Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHT
Anakin7 Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) danielwoods, From my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive - You would not have survived long in N.T or early Post N.T times if you were taught by a Prophet/Apostle or Early Christian Father/Leader/Apologist in a Catacomb when they taught you to get Baptized in water to be saved - http://www.bible.ca/H-baptism.htm In His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHT Edited February 27, 2013 by Anakin7
Vance Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 It's interesting that you disagree with Peter, who stated that they received the Spirit just as he had.It is interesting that you disagree with Jesus.You seem to think that that statement requires that the process must have been exactly the same. But that isn't what it says. It says that they had received the Spirit just as Peter had received the Spirit, meaning that both groups had received the Spirit, not that the process was exactly the same.Besides, you are forgeting that Jesus was baptized BEFORE the Spirit fell upon Him, (in the form of a dove) See Matt 3:16. Since my arguments have failed. I will stand with Peter, and John who wrote: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."You can't truely believe in the Son without believeing what he taught, and he taught that a man must be baptized of the water or he can't enter into the kingdom of God.Besides you aren't standing with Peter, because Peter said, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"And even the Baptism of Jesus shows you to be wrong.
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