Imminent Death Of Evangelical Christianity?

[Vance]

If you read the info linked in post #164 you will see that it is not "obvious" that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

I read enough to see that they started with the conclusion (which was based upon a misunderstanding of scripture) and then proceeded from there.

edited to add: I see that you read the info but chose not to respond to the arguments presented but, rather, fall back to your Protestant-bashing. BTW, I think you mean "advice" not "advise."

Yeah, a typo.

They start with the conclusion, "So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation is a faulty interpretation." And this conclusion is because they misinterpret what Paul means by the words "faith" and "works".

So, faulty conclusions (presumptions) based upon faulty interpretations and misunderstandings don't a case make.

[Vance]

More from the link,

1—The Bible is clear that we are saved by faith alone. Abraham was saved by faith, and we are saved by faith.

Again, a basic misunderstanding of Pauls use of the word "faith".

BTW, did you know that the ONLY verse in the Bible that contains both words "faith" and "alone" is this one?

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So, this whole "faith alone" stuff is extra-Biblical, in other words, a violation of "sola scriptura".

Just saying.

[Anakin7]

danielwood are you of the salvation by grace alone through faith alone/once saved always saved world of EV christianity ?. Thanks.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Vance]

More,

2- Throughout the Bible, in every dispensation, people have been saved without being baptized. Every believer in the Old Testament (e.g., Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon) was saved but not baptized.

This presumes a lack of baptism. Sorry, but lack of evidence is NOT proof of absence.

The thief on the cross was saved but not baptized.

The fact that this baseless argument is even put forth shows the lack of scholarship in the production of this drivel.

Cornelius was saved before he was baptized.

Another presumption for nowhere in scripture does it specifically state that Cornelius "WAS" saved. We have no reason to believe that, after meeting the requirements for salvation, (one of which, as clearly stated by Jesus, is to "endure to the end") that Cornelius later did get saved.

[Anakin7]

More on The Thief on The Cross - http://www.hallvworthington.com/MissingCross.html#thief

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Vance]

Paul, who didn't suffer useless activities like circumcision, made a big deal about, not only the type of baptism, but the fact that it was done by the proper authority and the proper way.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Paul could tell by the answer to his first two questions that these men had not been baptised by one having proper authority. The baptism they had received was INVALID. It was required that they baptized right because Baptism is required for salvation.

If baptism wasn't required, Paul would not have wasted his time even asking about it.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Vance

[Anakin7]

Vance my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Master In Christ Jesus a great observation. I must go now to another Land and Kingdom, I will be back in a few hrs. may True Grace Be with you.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[coolrok7]

Bearing false witness is a serious charge Anakin7 (post #108). The distortion of Biblical teaching on Joseph’s part is more along the lines of bearing false witness of what was originally written:

As to you coolrok try reading 2 Nephi 25:23 again but read the whole context before and after that verse. You are making claims about that scripture that bears false witness against us. Please check your own house [ Others have, both LDS and non LDS and have found problems]

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin 7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

I’ve read it many times. I’ve quoted from Mormonism’s own writings (of which the Bible is not except for the JST). I see it as an unjustified rewrite by distortion of what Paul wrote in Ephesians.

. . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Also here in Romans:

JST

2 For if Abraham were justified by the law of works, he hath glory in himself; but not of God.

4 Now to him who is justified by the law of works, is the reward reckoned, not of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that seeketh not to be justified by the law of works, but believeth on him who justifieth not the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without the law of works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they through faith whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

16 Therefore ye are justified of faith and works, through grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to them only who are of the law, but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

KJV

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof

to glory; but not before God.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

[Storm Rider]

Cool, there is very little benefit to quoting scriptures to one another. I have found that it is generally of little value and serves little purpose. You are happy where you are at; God bless you and may you always find peace in Jesus Christ. However, I would ask the same privilege for those who worship Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, Savior and Redeemer of all mankind within The Church of Jesus Christ. The reason that I am LDS is because I have studied the scriptures for decades and I believe that I have found a fullness of truth and Jesus' teachings within the Church. It is true that I have found much truth elsewhere and I rejoice when I find it and strive to implement into my discipleship, but this process only strengthens me and does not weaken my commitment to Jesus' Church.

[danielwoods]

danielwood are you of the salvation by grace alone through faith alone/once saved always saved world of EV christianity ?. Thanks.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

I am and Evangelical, yes. I don't believe in once saved always saved, as characterized often by the LDS. I do believe that it is grace alone that saves us. Nothing we have done adds to the work that Christ did. When he finished his work, it was done. That is my belief.

[danielwoods]

Paul, who didn't suffer useless activities like circumcision, made a big deal about, not only the type of baptism, but the fact that it was done by the proper authority and the proper way.

Paul could tell by the answer to his first two questions that these men had not been baptised by one having proper authority. The baptism they had received was INVALID. It was required that they baptized right because Baptism is required for salvation.

If baptism wasn't required, Paul would not have wasted his time even asking about it.

Interesting that paul never states that baptism is a requirement for salvation. Also interesting that the word authority isn't used in the passage quoted.

[Vance]

Interesting that paul never states that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

He didn't need to. His actions speak for him.

Also interesting that the word authority isn't used in the passage quoted.

He didn't need to. His actions speak for him.

[Vance]

I don't believe in once saved always saved, as characterized often by the LDS.

Humm. It isn't just LDS that characterize it.

"One of the most widely taught doctrines in the church today is the doctrine of 'eternal security'. It says, briefly, that if you say a little prayer asking Jesus into your heart, then it obligates God to forgive you for anything you ever do wrong. You can cheat on your wife, rob banks, curse God, worship the Antichrist, massacre innocent civilians, and plunder the world, and it matters not one iota as far as your personal salvation is concerned, because 'Jesus did it all for you'."

"The seriousness of the cross," Jesus Christians, at: http://cust.idl.net.au/

I do believe that it is grace alone that saves us.

So faith and obedience don't play a part, got it.

Nothing we have done adds to the work that Christ did.

So, Jesus did it all for you. That sound like a lazy approach to salvation.

When he finished his work, it was done.

Who said his work was finished? He didn't.

Here is an interesting quote from a NON-LDS Christian,

The doctrine of salvation by faith alone cannot be found in the early history of the church. It was invented by Martin Luther in the early 1500's. Clement of Alexandria, for example, the teacher of new Christians at the church in Alexandria, wrote in A.D. 190, " 'For by grace are we saved,' but not, indeed, without good works. Rather, we must be saved by being molded for what is good, acquiring an inclination for it" (Miscellanies, book V, chapter II). He was not alone in such sentiments. Polycarp, a leader of the church in Smyrna who was appointed to that position by the apostle John, wrote in a letter to the church at Philippi that God would "raise up us also, if we do his will and walk in his commandments . . . keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness" (Letter to the Philippians, chapter 2).

http://ezinearticles.com/?Salvation-by-Faith---Evangelical-Doctrine-and-the-Fruit-it-Produces&id=1581223

[Vance]

I am and Evangelical, yes. I don't believe in once saved always saved, as characterized often by the LDS. I do believe that it is grace alone that saves us. Nothing we have done adds to the work that Christ did. When he finished his work, it was done. That is my belief.

So, if you can't do anything to affect your salvation, can you do anything to lose it?

[danielwoods]

So, if you can't do anything to affect your salvation, can you do anything to lose it?

Yes. A free agent is free to walk away from God if they wish.

The doctrine of election is far more complicated than what is represented by simple phrases.

[Anakin7]

I am and Evangelical, yes. I don't believe in once saved always saved, as characterized often by the LDS. I do believe that it is grace alone that saves us. Nothing we have done adds to the work that Christ did. When he finished his work, it was done. That is my belief.

Thank you for your Reply, may True Grace Be with You.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited February 28, 2013 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

Bearing false witness is a serious charge Anakin7 (post #108). The distortion of Biblical teaching on Joseph’s part is more along the lines of bearing false witness of what was originally written:

I’ve read it many times. I’ve quoted from Mormonism’s own writings (of which the Bible is not except for the JST). I see it as an unjustified rewrite by distortion of what Paul wrote in Ephesians.

Also here in Romans:

Alright coolrok7 then what is the "All We Can Do" in 2 Nephi 25:23 mean in The Book Of Mormon ?. I just want to see if my False Witness statement is Justified still.

IN HIS DEBT/GRACE

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited February 28, 2013 by Anakin7

[danielwoods]

Thank you for your Reply, may True grace Be with You.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

And to you as well!!

[Vance]

Yes. A free agent is free to walk away from God if they wish.

The doctrine of election is far more complicated than what is represented by simple phrases.

Your answer is self contradictory. Either you can affect your salvation or you can't.

BTW, how do you feel about the fact that "by faith alone" was fabricated by Martin Luther and was unknown prior to him?

Edited February 28, 2013 by Vance

[Anakin7]

Must leave soon so I thought I would say: Works Are Nessesary for Salvation but they to not cause Salvation for Faith alone gives Life.

Salvation Is Free

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Gervin]

Must leave soon so I thought I would say: Works Are Nessesary for Salvation but they to not cause Salvation for Faith alone gives Life.

Salvation Is Free

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

you would say that, but I think Luther said it first (?)

and this:

" ...a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!"

Edited February 28, 2013 by Gervin

[cdowis]

Interesting that paul never states that baptism is a requirement for salvation. Also interesting that the word authority isn't used in the passage quoted.

It is interesting that his epistles were written to those who already knew the principles of the Gospel. They already knew that baptism was essential for salvation because they were familiar with the words and teachings of Christ. And they knew that the authority was necessary, as Simon attempted to purchase this authority.

Paul had no need to repeat what they already knew. Paul's epistles were not a catechism but an explanation of things that they did not understand.

He had no need to explain baptism for the dead to the Corinthian saints, and only mentioned that they were doing it as an argument for the resurrection. They already knew the doctrine, as it was taught to them and practiced by them. The readers of these epistles knew that baptism, even for the dead, was necessary for salvation.

It was after the apostacy of the church that this knowledge was lost, and denied the teachings of Christ.

Edited February 28, 2013 by cdowis

[danielwoods]

Your answer is self contradictory. Either you can affect your salvation or you can't.

BTW, how do you feel about the fact that "by faith alone" was fabricated by Martin Luther and was unknown prior to him?

Sorry no it's not.

You asked:

Vance, on 28 February 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

So, if you can't do anything to affect your salvation, can you do anything to lose it?

Salvation is a free gift. (The gift of God is eternal life)

I don't create or destroy the gift. My only role is to accept or not, the free gift. This affects my destiny, it doesn't affect the work of salvation done by Christ, which he completed without any help from me.

As I said before, the doctrine of election is not explained by a simple phrase, such as faith alone.

[Vance]

Sorry no it's not.

It is, dispite your protestations.

Salvation is a free gift. (The gift of God is eternal life)

Free, meaning it is available to all, not that is without effort.

I don't create or destroy the gift.

No, but you can fail to do what is necessary to receive it.

My only role is to accept or not, the free gift.

Nope, you have to do what is require to get it. It is freely available to all but not without effort.

This affects my destiny, it doesn't affect the work of salvation done by Christ, which he completed without any help from me.

1) you keep claiming his work is done, it isn't. He isn't finished yet.

2) If he does it all, why are you even here? To convince us we are wrong? Isn't that his job not yours?

As I said before, the doctrine of election is not explained by a simple phrase, such as faith alone.

No, and it isn't explained by extra-Biblical sources like Martin Luther or John Calvin either.

One of your problems is that you have absolutely no special authority or status that demands that your (mis-)interpretation of Biblical scripture is better than ours. We find that our beliefs are consistent with Biblical scripture. So why should we change based on anything you say?

[danielwoods]

Must leave soon so I thought I would say: Works Are Nessesary for Salvation but they to not cause Salvation for Faith alone gives Life.

Salvation Is Free

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

If what you say is true, that "faith alone gives life." then how are works necessary for salvation if works don't cause it?