Imminent Death Of Evangelical Christianity?

[danielwoods]

It is interesting that his epistles were written to those who already knew the principles of the Gospel. They already knew that baptism was essential for salvation because they were familiar with the words and teachings of Christ. And they knew that the authority was necessary, as Simon attempted to purchase this authority.

Paul had no need to repeat what they already knew. Paul's epistles were not a catechism but an explanation of things that they did not understand.

He had no need to explain baptism for the dead to the Corinthian saints, and only mentioned that they were doing it as an argument for the resurrection. They already knew the doctrine, as it was taught to them and practiced by them. The readers of these epistles knew that baptism, even for the dead, was necessary for salvation.

It was after the apostacy of the church that this knowledge was lost, and denied the teachings of Christ.

Since no evidence has been presented that the recipients of the epistles *already knew* that baptism was essential for salvation, I would contend that they didn't know that. Further the fact that Paul never mentions it supports such a viewpoint.

Second, Simon didn't attempt to purchase authority, but power or the ability that he saw Peter had.

[Tacenda]

Sorry to barge in here and it may have already been said but IMO, maybe we're not saved by our works but judged by them.

[Ahab]

Sorry to barge in here and it may have already been said but IMO, maybe we're not saved by our works but judged by them.

It's a combination of both, actually.

Anything we do is considered a work which we do, and that includes thinking and believing and talking and listening and having faith or ignoring the voice of God when he's trying to give us faith, as well as doing the things we feel or think we should do but don't do when he's telling us we should do those things.

It is the grace of God which saves us, when we are saved, but we can reject the grace of God too and end up not being saved. or at least not as saved as we otherwise could be by accepting more of the grace God offers to us which is conditional upon us doing what we need to do to receive it.

[Vance]

Since no evidence has been presented that the recipients of the epistles *already knew* that baptism was essential for salvation, I would contend that they didn't know that. Further the fact that Paul never mentions it supports such a viewpoint.

That is an interesting approach. Let's see the other side of that coin.

Since no evidence has been presented that the recipients of the epistles DIDN'T *already know* that baptism was essential for salvation, I would contend that they did know. Further the fact that Paul never mentions it supports such a viewpoint.

What say you danielwoods?

[danielwoods]

It is, dispite your protestations.

Free, meaning it is available to all, not that is without effort.

No, but you can fail to do what is necessary to receive it.

Nope, you have to do what is require to get it. It is freely available to all but not without effort.

1) you keep claiming his work is done, it isn't. He isn't finished yet.

2) If he does it all, why are you even here? To convince us we are wrong? Isn't that his job not yours?

No, and it isn't explained by extra-Biblical sources like Martin Luther or John Calvin either.

One of your problems is that you have absolutely no special authority or status that demands that your (mis-)interpretation of Biblical scripture is better than ours. We find that our beliefs are consistent with Biblical scripture. So why should we change based on anything you say?

The bottom line is just as you stated above. You believe that Salvation is available to all but not without effort. That he isn't finished yet.

I couldn't disagree more.

I believe that the washing and regeneration that is done by the Spirit is just that. Supernatural. We can't do it, even if we tried. We are dead in our sins, and Christ breaths life to our spiritually dead soul. Our only response is "thank you!" We deserve none of the glory, because we're just along for the ride.

It appears to me that Paul's admonition to the Colossians is the difference between the LDS and EV positions:

^2:20 Since you died with Christ^(AP) to the elemental spiritual forces of this world,^(AQ) why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:^(AR)21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? ²² These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish^(AS) with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings.^(AT)23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility^(AU) and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Where the LDS position (as stated by you), Salvation is free but,, "you have to do what is require[d] to get it. It is freely available to all but not without effort."

This has the appearance of wisdom.

However, the Evangelical position is that salvation is done by Jesus alone, as Paul writes to Titus,

"3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

⁶ Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

⁷ That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

[danielwoods]

Sorry to barge in here and it may have already been said but IMO, maybe we're not saved by our works but judged by them.

I can't give the LDS answer to your question (I think Ahab might have though), but from my perspective I can answer.

Your question, "maybe we're not saved by our works but judged by them." Brings up the exact problem with saying that we are saved by "our effort" or "after all we can do." That is, how are we judged?

According to Evangelical doctrine, we as believers are not judged for our sin or our short comings. We have the righteousness of Christ already, our sin has been dealt with. It's done. No longer remembered. It's Gone. As Paul says in Colossians 3:³ For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

⁴ When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

[danielwoods]

That is an interesting approach. Let's see the other side of that coin.

Since no evidence has been presented that the recipients of the epistles DIDN'T *already know* that baptism was essential for salvation, I would contend that they did know. Further the fact that Paul never mentions it supports such a viewpoint.

What say you danielwoods?

If the idea that baptism was essential for salvation is based on Mark 16:16, then as posted by Gervin's link, "Those who try to use Mark 16:16 to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious mistake that is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. This is the rule to follow: “If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are also true."

[Tacenda]

I can't give the LDS answer to your question (I think Ahab might have though), but from my perspective I can answer.

Your question, "maybe we're not saved by our works but judged by them." Brings up the exact problem with saying that we are saved by "our effort" or "after all we can do." That is, how are we judged?

According to Evangelical doctrine, we as believers are not judged for our sin or our short comings. We have the righteousness of Christ already, our sin has been dealt with. It's done. No longer remembered. It's Gone. As Paul says in Colossians 3:³ For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

⁴ When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Cool, and in knowing and understanding the depth of that huge Grace, one that is truly regenerative, will not want to sin. Am I getting the EV hang of it? I've been listening to some non LDS Christian Sermons on the radio. Is it possible to be a born again Mormon?

[Anakin7]

If what you say is true, that "faith alone gives life." then how are works necessary for salvation if works don't cause it?

Agape greetings danielwoods I just returned for a short period, thanks for the question. Faith [pistis] is a work - [Faithfullness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust] to God The Father/God The Son Jesus Christ/God The Holy Ghost/Spirit. Faith/pistis accesses/activates Grace so that it changes your salvation standing/journey/quest.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[cdowis]

If the idea that baptism was essential for salvation is based on Mark 16:16, then as posted by Gervin's link, "Those who try to use Mark 16:16 to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious mistake that is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. This is the rule to follow: “If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are also true."

That is why the historic church has replaced the prophets with theologians and scholars. It is possible to prove or disprove almost any position using logic, philosophy and the Bible text.

"Paul does not mention that baptism is necessary for salvation. I dismantled the words of Christ into a logical puzzle, inefficacious, of no effect, a fallacy. We can conclude....."

Absolute stunning.

The Lord has restored the Gospel, giving modern revelation to living prophets to point us to that narrow gate to salvation. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Edited March 1, 2013 by cdowis

[danielwoods]

Cool, and in knowing and understanding the depth of that huge Grace, one that is truly regenerative, will not want to sin. Am I getting the EV hang of it? I've been listening to some non LDS Christian Sermons on the radio. Is it possible to be a born again Mormon?

Yes you are getting it. The grace ("Huge Grace" even!) causes us to change from the inside out. It's not rules and regulations and ordinances that change us, but the Holy Spirit changes our heart so that we *want* to do God's will.

I believe that a lot of Mormons are born again!

[danielwoods]

Agape greetings danielwoods I just returned for a short period, thanks for the question. Faith [pistis] is a work - [Faithfullness/Fidelity/Loyalty/Obedience/Trust] to God The Father/God The Son Jesus Christ/God The Holy Ghost/Spirit. Faith/pistis accesses/activates Grace so that it changes your salvation standing/journey/quest.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Thanks! I see how you could interpret it that way. I disagree of course, I don't think that faith is a work per se, it's more of a choice.

[danielwoods]

That is why the historic church has replaced the prophets with theologians and scholars. It is possible to prove or disprove almost any position using logic, philosophy and the Bible text.

"Paul does not mention that baptism is necessary for salvation. I dismantled the words of Christ into a logical puzzle, inefficacious, of no effect, a fallacy. We can conclude....."

Absolute stunning.

The Lord has restored the Gospel, giving modern revelation to living prophets to point us to that narrow gate to salvation. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Funny though. How come there are still prophets in many evangelical churches?

The point always comes down to trust. Who do you trust?

Catholics, LDS, Greek Orthodox will point to some sort of authoritative connection going all the way back to Jesus. Their trust then is in that authority.

Protestent, Evangelical, non-denominational will point to historical data, reliability of manuscripts, and logic. Their trust then is in those things that they can demonstrate accurately.

Either way it depends on who you trust.

[Calm]

If what you say is true, that "faith alone gives life." then how are works necessary for salvation if works don't cause it?

My opinion....works prepare and maintain a fertile soil in which God can plant the seed of faith and cause it to grow.

[Anakin7]

Thanks! I see how you could interpret it that way. I disagree of course, I don't think that faith is a work per se, it's more of a choice.

Check out the greek for faith [pistis] =faithfullness/fidelity/loyalty/obedience/trust along with a # of other action definitions. 1 Thess 1:3, 2 Thess 1:11 - faith is a work or is being worked, either way work is involved by us [Labor of Love To GOD/Christ/ our Fellow man]. The Thessalonians True Faith [pistis] was the same as any other True Saint/Christian work of Faith as found in the N.T. Yes it is a chioce [unless you are a calvinist christian] to open the gift of True Faith and use it to accept/access/activate The True Grace Atoneing Blood Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Salvation is Free 2 Nephi 2:4

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited March 1, 2013 by Anakin7

[cdowis]

Funny though. How come there are still prophets in many evangelical churches?

Yes, very interesting indeed.

I would like to read their epistles and sermons in canon. Are they recognized as revelation and scripture by the evangelical churches -- included as additional books in the Bible or are they in a separate book of scripture. Prophets give us revelation and are often recognized as canon.

To answer your question, my experience is that certain individuals have the gift of charisma, and they call it the gift of prophecy. But let's see what you have to offer.

Edited March 1, 2013 by cdowis

[Vance]

The bottom line is just as you stated above. You believe that Salvation is available to all but not without effort. That he isn't finished yet.

I couldn't disagree more.

I believe that the washing and regeneration that is done by the Spirit is just that. Supernatural. We can't do it, even if we tried.

Well, that isn't what Peter says.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

It is rather clear that OBEDIENCE to the commandments of God is rewarded with the Holy Ghost.

So, you see, you can do something. And that something is obedience.

And one of the other blessing/rewards for obedience is knowledge.

John 7:17 (JESUS said,) If any man will do his (God's) will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

However, the Evangelical position is that salvation is done by Jesus alone,

And that is why they are wrong.

as Paul writes to Titus,

"3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

YUP!!!

"Washing of regeneration" means Baptism.

And the "renewing of the Holy Ghost" is given to the obedient.

So, YES, effort on our part is necessary.

[Vance]

Sorry to barge in here and it may have already been said but IMO, maybe we're not saved by our works but judged by them.

The Great and ever loved Apostle Paul said,

Rom 2:6 (GOD) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Vance

[Vance]

If the idea that baptism was essential for salvation is based on Mark 16:16, then as posted by Gervin's link, "Those who try to use Mark 16:16 to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious mistake that is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. This is the rule to follow: “If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are also true."

The idea that baptism is essential isn't just based on Mark 16:16. It is based upon revelation and scripture. Mark 16:16 is just one of several verses that support the idea. And your problem is that you can't find any verses that indicate otherwise. Even the verse you quoted above declares that baptism (washing of regeneration) is essential.

Let's add context to the verse by looking at the preceding verses.

Who is Jesus talking to?

The eleven Apostles. See verse 14.

What does he tell them to do?

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

So, he is talking about the people that will HEAR THE GOSPEL!!!!

And he divides THOSE people into two groups.

1) Those that believe and are baptised. Clearly, the inference is that the believers WILL BE BAPTIZED!

Why?

The OBVIOUS answer is that it is a requirement for the believer. ALL TRUE believers are baptized.

And what is their reward?

Salvation.

2) Those that don't believe the Apostles.

OBVIOUSLY unbelievers are NOT baptized.

What is their reward?

Damnation.

BTW, You keep mentioning that "Negative Inference Fallacy". Strange that it isn't listed here, http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

The only place I can find it mentioned are on Evangelical doctrine websites. It makes me wonder if it is a real fallacy at all.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Vance

[Vance]

Protestent, Evangelical, non-denominational will point to historical data,

But not the older stuff, only the stuff fabricated during the "reformation". The older historical data that disagrees with them is ignored.

reliability of manuscripts,

Except for the older stuff that disagrees with them.

and logic.

Well, only if it can be construed to agree with them, the stuff that disagrees with them is ignored.

Their trust then is in those things that they can demonstrate accurately.

Nope, their trust is in their own presumptions and their presumption driven interpretations.

1) Just start with the presumption that Baptism isn't necessary. (And since they don't have any legitimate claim to authority, presume that no authority is needed).

2) Go throw the Bible and explain away any and all verses that indicate that baptism (and authority) are necessary.

And BOOM!!!

You've got it.

Either way it depends on who you trust.

I will take the witness of the Holy Ghost above Evangelical presumption and misinterpretation any day, thank you.

[danielwoods]

Check out the greek for faith [pistis] =faithfullness/fidelity/loyalty/obedience/trust along with a # of other action definitions. 1 Thess 1:3, 2 Thess 1:11 - faith is a work or is being worked, either way work is involved by us [Labor of Love To GOD/Christ/ our Fellow man]. The Thessalonians True Faith [pistis] was the same as any other True Saint/Christian work of Faith as found in the N.T. Yes it is a chioce [unless you are a calvinist christian] to open the gift of True Faith and use it to accept/access/activate The True Grace Atoneing Blood Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Salvation is Free 2 Nephi 2:4

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

The thess. passages don't really talk about faith being a work directly. They motivate people to work, sure. I think one of the best discussions of it is found in Romans 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? ² If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. ³ What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”^[a]

⁴ Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. ⁵ However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. ⁶ David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"

Notice, the contrast made between works and faith. Righteousness is credit to us based on faith not works. It appears to me that the word "words" is used to denote a physical activity, which faith is not.

[danielwoods]

Yes, very interesting indeed.

I would like to read their epistles and sermons in canon. Are they recognized as revelation and scripture by the evangelical churches -- included as additional books in the Bible or are they in a separate book of scripture. Prophets give us revelation and are often recognized as canon.

To answer your question, my experience is that certain individuals have the gift of charisma, and they call it the gift of prophecy. But let's see what you have to offer.

There are a couple things. One is that not every Apostle, Prophet, etc. wrote things, nor was everything they wrote canonized. So just because modern prophets in evangelical circles don't make claims about writing scripture doesn't disqualify them as prophets.

Second when was the last writing of an LDS Prophet canonized? Just curious. I don't think I've heard of anything very recent, yet you would still claim they are valid prophets right?

[danielwoods]

Well, that isn't what Peter says.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

It is rather clear that OBEDIENCE to the commandments of God is rewarded with the Holy Ghost.

So, you see, you can do something. And that something is obedience.

And one of the other blessing/rewards for obedience is knowledge.

John 7:17 (JESUS said,) If any man will do his (God's) will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

And that is why they are wrong.

YUP!!!

"Washing of regeneration" means Baptism.

And the "renewing of the Holy Ghost" is given to the obedient.

So, YES, effort on our part is necessary.

Here, let me help you out.

http://dictionary.re....com/browse/and

as Paul writes to Titus,

"3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

In context, this particular use of the word and ties the two equal ideas together. Washing of regeneration and renewing are both connected to the Holy Ghost, not water baptism.

Edited March 1, 2013 by danielwoods

[danielwoods]

The Great and ever loved Apostle Paul said,

Rom 2:6 (GOD) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

The full context demonstrates that Paul is talking about people who seek to be justified by the Law, I prefer reading it in the NIV:

Romans 2:2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. ² Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. ³ So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? ⁴ Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

⁵ But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. ⁶ God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”^{[a] 7} To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. ⁸ But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. ⁹ There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; ¹⁰ but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. ¹¹ For God does not show favoritism.

Quoting only from verse 6 doesn't capture the context that Paul isn't speaking to believers, but the judgmental self-righteous. He even quotes Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12 to drive his point home to them.

[danielwoods]

The idea that baptism is essential isn't just based on Mark 16:16. It is based upon revelation and scripture. Mark 16:16 is just one of several verses that support the idea. And your problem is that you can't find any verses that indicate otherwise. Even the verse you quoted above declares that baptism (washing of regeneration) is essential.

Let's add context to the verse by looking at the preceding verses.

Who is Jesus talking to?

The eleven Apostles. See verse 14.

What does he tell them to do?

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

So, he is talking about the people that will HEAR THE GOSPEL!!!!

And he divides THOSE people into two groups.

1) Those that believe and are baptised. Clearly, the inference is that the believers WILL BE BAPTIZED!

Why?

The OBVIOUS answer is that it is a requirement for the believer. ALL TRUE believers are baptized.

And what is their reward?

Salvation.

2) Those that don't believe the Apostles.

OBVIOUSLY unbelievers are NOT baptized.

What is their reward?

Damnation.

BTW, You keep mentioning that "Negative Inference Fallacy". Strange that it isn't listed here, http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

The only place I can find it mentioned are on Evangelical doctrine websites. It makes me wonder if it is a real fallacy at all.

The fact that Mark 16:16 doesn't support the idea that baptism is necessary for salvation is found in the later part of the verse, where Jesus didn't repeat the idea that salvation was directly connected to baptism, only belief.