Anakin7 Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 Just in case you deny that the Early post N.T Apostalic Fathers/Church Leaders/Apologists taught you must be Baptized in Water to be Saved please read - http://www.bible.ca/H-baptism.htm#bornIn nHis Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHT 1
danielwoods Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 There is nothing in there [The Links I posted] about being Baptized [in Water ] ???. True no authorized sevant is mention but a read of N.T and post N.T history shows one must have authority to Baptize in Water for remmission of your sins.In nHis Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHTSorry I wasn't more clear, the reference was to the verse. ""Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life..." Not your links. Of course your links are about baptism. As to the question of authority. It is a place where we disagree. I believe and understand that Christ will build his church. All authority then is derived from him directly. Not any organization on this earth bestows authority or has keys so as to pass them to another person. I understand that we disagree on this, which is fine. I disagree with the Catholics about this point as well.
danielwoods Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 danielwoods, From my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive - You would not have survived long in N.T or early Post N.T times if you were taught by a Prophet/Apostle or Early Christian Father/Leader/Apologist in a Catacomb when they taught you to get Baptized in water to be saved - http://www.bible.ca/H-baptism.htm In His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHTThat is an interesting link. Don't have near the time to read all of them. However, what I did read was still not exactly supportive of the idea that baptism is necessary for salvation. For example, the quote, "110-165 AD Martyr The "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles" also refer to John 3:5. There, the one who refuses to be baptized is to be condemned as an unbeliever..." does seem to support that idea, however, a person who *refuses* to follow Christ's teachings is quite different from one who "hasn't done it yet" so to speak. In other words, it's still a matter of the heart, and it's being humble and regenerated by the spirit. The dipping in water is simply a symbol and proclamation of that.
danielwoods Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 It is interesting that you disagree with Jesus.You seem to think that that statement requires that the process must have been exactly the same. But that isn't what it says. It says that they had received the Spirit just as Peter had received the Spirit, meaning that both groups had received the Spirit, not that the process was exactly the same.Besides, you are forgeting that Jesus was baptized BEFORE the Spirit fell upon Him, (in the form of a dove) See Matt 3:16.You can't truely believe in the Son without believeing what he taught, and he taught that a man must be baptized of the water or he can't enter into the kingdom of God.Besides you aren't standing with Peter, because Peter said, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"And even the Baptism of Jesus shows you to be wrong.I'm happy to be wrong. Even this quote," The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"Demonstrates that it's not about the symbolic act, it's about the heart. Having a good conscience toward God. He that believes has eternal life. Of course he would get baptized if he believes. But what if he didn't know? What if it was sunday and he died on the way to church? It isn't about the "putting way of filth from the flesh" external washing. It's about the heart, it's about the true washing of the regeneration by the spirit.
Vance Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) I'm happy to be wrong.Well, then, you must be happy.Even this quote," The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"Demonstrates that it's not about the symbolic act, it's about the heart. Having a good conscience toward God. He that believes has eternal life. Of course he would get baptized if he believes.IF he believes then he believes what Jesus taught, then he believes that baptism is required. Simple really. But what if he didn't know? What if it was sunday and he died on the way to church? It isn't about the "putting way of filth from the flesh" external washing. It's about the heart, it's about the true washing of the regeneration by the spirit.Yup. IF you don't really believe in baptism being a requirement, then you don't really believe in Jesus in your heart. Simple really.Even Jesus, who was perfect, HAD to be baptized to what? FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!Or, in other words, to be perfectly obedient to all of the requirements.Simple, really.The idea that baptism isn't required is a modern, Protestant, Evangelical idea. It has no historical support for it. But then again, you have no clue about Christian history. Edited February 27, 2013 by Vance
danielwoods Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 Well, then, you must be happy.IF he believes then he believes what Jesus taught, then he believes that baptism is required. Simple really.Yup. IF you don't really believe in baptism being a requirement, then you don't really believe in Jesus in your heart. Simple really.Even Jesus, who was perfect, HAD to be baptized to what? FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!Or, in other words, to be perfectly obedient to all of the requirements.Simple, really.The idea that baptism isn't required is a modern, Protestant, Evangelical idea. It has no historical support for it. But then again, you have no clue about Christian history.If it's so simple then please post the verse which states that God will condemn everyone to hell who didn't get baptized.
Vance Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 If it's so simple then please post the verse which states that God will condemn everyone to hell who didn't get baptized.It has already been posted several times. Will one more time actually make a difference to you?I think not.
danielwoods Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 It has already been posted several times. Will one more time actually make a difference to you?I think not.Actually it hasn't.
Vance Posted February 27, 2013 Posted February 27, 2013 Actually it hasn't.Yes, it has. See post #119.
danielwoods Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 Yes, it has. See post #119.Which contains two verses. I'm going to guess that it's this one you're referring to?Mark 16 [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. If you think that this verse states that God will condemn everyone to hell who didn't get baptized, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because it only states that those who believeth not shall be damned.
Vance Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 Which contains two verses. I'm going to guess that it's this one you're referring to?Mark 16 [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.If you think that this verse states that God will condemn everyone to hell who didn't get baptized, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because it only states that those who believeth not shall be damned. Here, let me help you out.http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/and
danielwoods Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 Which contains two verses. I'm going to guess that it's this one you're referring to?Mark 16 [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.If you think that this verse states that God will condemn everyone to hell who didn't get baptized, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because it only states that those who believeth not shall be damned. Here, let me help you out.http://dictionary.re....com/browse/andSorry I wasn't more clear. The last portion of the verse (bolded) notice that baptized isn't repeated.
Anakin7 Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) If They do not believe they are not going to be Baptized [The Spiritual common sense reading, Bolded or not and not needed to be repeated].In His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHT Edited February 28, 2013 by Anakin7
Gervin Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) This page presents a discussion of the question based on the Mark verse: http://www.gotquesti...Mark-16-16.html Edited February 28, 2013 by Gervin 1
Anakin7 Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 Again - http://www.bible.ca/H-baptism.htm http://www.bible.ca/baptism-objections-refuted.htm In His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHT
Gervin Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) I like the statement on the homepage of the link you provided: These writings are not inspired. They are not part of the Bible. They are absolutely not authoritative in determining doctrine. Edited February 28, 2013 by Gervin 1
Anakin7 Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) http://www.mtgriffit...nts/baptism.htmIn His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHT Edited February 28, 2013 by Anakin7
danielwoods Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 If They do not believe they are not going to be Baptized [The Spiritual common sense reading, Bolded or not and not needed to be repeated].In His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHTAs posted by Gervin's link, "Those who try to useMark 16:16to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious mistake that is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. This is the rule to follow: “If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are also true."
Robert F. Smith Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 Mudcat,You wrote:I'm afraid this is the same kind of fallacious use of statistics that led Rodney Stark to predict there would be 265 million Mormons by 2080. Extrapolations from "trends" of the past few years or even few decades are hazardous because no pattern of growth or decay in belief or behavior remains constant in human populations. This is especially and obviously true when the statistical data used are selective, incomplete, or unrepresentative. Ed Stetzer is an evangelical statistician who is getting it right; see, for example, his article "Curing Christians' Stats Abuse." Bottom line: evangelicalism is in no danger of dying, though it will continue to change, as all human movements do.AMEN, brother.
Anakin7 Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) From My LDS JEDI Archive http://www.christian...pose-of-baptism In His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHT Edited February 28, 2013 by Anakin7
Vance Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 Sorry I wasn't more clear. The last portion of the verse (bolded) notice that baptized isn't repeated.It doesn't need to be repeated. It is included in the first half of the sentence as part of the requirement to be saved. It is rather obvious that baptism is a requirement for salvation. IF you truely believe what the Bible says then you will accept that fact.
Vance Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) From Gervins link, As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches through careful consideration of the language and context of the verse.Well, they do get that part right. The problem is they DON'T follow their own advise. We also filter it through what we know the Bible teaches elsewhere on the subject.In other words, the take their presumptions and force them into the verses to get the desired outcome. The are unwilling to let the scriptures speak for themselves. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptismThe "Bible" makes no such "clarity". The problem is the misunderstanding that Modern, Protestant, Evangelicals have about Paul's us of the word "works" and "faith". They totally disregard their own advice and do not look at the context and language used by Paul.Their misuse and misunderstanding do NOT, in any way, undermine nor diminish the strength of the LDS position. Edited February 28, 2013 by Vance
Gervin Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) It doesn't need to be repeated. It is included in the first half of the sentence as part of the requirement to be saved. It is rather obvious that baptism is a requirement for salvation. IF you truely believe what the Bible says then you will accept that fact.If you read the info linked in post #164 you will see that it is not "obvious" that baptism is a requirement for salvation.edited to add: I see that you read the info but chose not to respond to the arguments presented but, rather, fall back to your Protestant-bashing. BTW, I think you mean "advice" not "advise." Edited February 28, 2013 by Gervin
Vance Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) From My LDS JEDI Archive http://www.christian...pose-of-baptism In His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHTIT is rather OBVIOUS that, contrary to the claim made in Gervins link, the Bible isn't clear enough to bring a unity of beliefs regarding this matter.From the NON-LDS Christian source Anakin links to,A gracious gentleman acknowledges that we have cited a number of passages which appear to connect baptism with salvation (e.g., Mt. 28:19-20; Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Rom. 6:3-4; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27; Eph. 5:26; ***. 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:21). But he says:“I’m also familiar with Ephesians 2:8, ‘by grace are ye saved . . . ,’ and Romans 3:22-27. Nowhere in these passages is baptism mentioned as a requisite to salvation.”(1) While it is true that the passages referenced (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 3:22-27) do not explicitly mention baptism, neither do they contain any allusion to repentance. Are we to assume that repentance is not required for redemption? Surely not.(2) It is rarely the case that a single context will totally exhaust the biblical material on a particular theme. It is the “sum” of the truth that counts (Psa. 119:160), not an isolated text, that may focus upon a limited point of emphasis.Acts 2:38 contends for repentance and baptism as “requisites” for “forgiveness,” with no specific mention of faith. However, by means of that interpretive rule known as “analogy of faith,” belief in the Lord must be implied as well.. . .(3) While Ephesians 2:8 mentions salvation by grace through faith, later, in the same letter, the apostle affirms that one is “cleansed . . . by washing of water with the word” (5:26).If one concludes that “saved” (2:8 ) is the equivalent of “cleansed” (5:26), it then becomes obvious that salvation by “faith” is not independent of being “washed with water,” (a phrase admitted by virtually all scholars to be a reference to baptism – Arndt, 481; Thayer, 382).Moreover, while both grace and faith are stressed in Romans 3:22ff — as means of “redemption” — three chapters later the inspired apostle affirmed that one is buried with Christ in baptism that he might walk in “newness of life” (6:3-4).Is “newness of life” a parallel descriptive for salvation? Of course it is. Clearly, then, salvation by grace and faith is not exclusive of other conditions specified in supplementary texts relating to justification.So, here you go. A NON-LDS Christian defense of Baptism being a requirement for salvation.So, Mormons aren't the only Christians that accept that the Bible teaches that Baptism is a requirement for salvation. Edited February 28, 2013 by Vance
Anakin7 Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 IT is rather OBVIOUS that, contrary to the claim made in Gervins link, the Bible isn't clear enough to bring a unity of beliefs regarding this matter.From the NON-LDS Christian source Anakin links to,So, here you go. A NON-LDS Christian defense of Baptism being a requirement for salvation.So, Mormons aren't the only Christians that accept that the Bible teaches that Baptism is a requirement for salvation. And do not forget those heretical Catholics and the 7 Orthodox Church Families in the world as well.In His Debt/GraceAnakin7LDS JEDI KNIGHT
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