Imminent Death Of Evangelical Christianity?

[danielwoods]

But not the older stuff, only the stuff fabricated during the "reformation". The older historical data that disagrees with them is ignored.

Except for the older stuff that disagrees with them.

Well, only if it can be construed to agree with them, the stuff that disagrees with them is ignored.

Nope, their trust is in their own presumptions and their presumption driven interpretations.

1) Just start with the presumption that Baptism isn't necessary. (And since they don't have any legitimate claim to authority, presume that no authority is needed).

2) Go throw the Bible and explain away any and all verses that indicate that baptism (and authority) are necessary.

And BOOM!!!

You've got it.

I will take the witness of the Holy Ghost above Evangelical presumption and misinterpretation any day, thank you.

The point is that both groups claim to trust the Holy Spirit. But the difference is one trust in the authority of man through history, and the other trusts their own historical investigation. The fact that you disagree with what they claim is rigorous historical study isn't surprising.

[Vance]

The full context demonstrates that Paul is talking about people who seek to be justified by the Law,

FALSE!!!!!

The full context clearly demonstrates that, "For there is no respect of persons with God" for both Jew and Gentile are treated the same.

Paul also said,

1 Cor 10:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Oops!!! There is that all are baptized thingy again.

I prefer reading it in the NIV:

Of course you do. Because it was translated by Evangelicals and so it has an Evangelical bias to it.

Romans 2:2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.² Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.³ So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?⁴ Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

⁵ But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. ⁶God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”^{[a] 7} To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. ⁸ But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. ⁹ There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; ¹⁰ but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. ¹¹ For God does not show favoritism.

Well, the Evangelical translators weren't able to hide that one. The meaning is the same as I presented.

Quoting only from verse 6 doesn't capture the context that Paul isn't speaking to believers,

LOL!!!!!!

That is dumb thing to claim.

The epistle was written to the saints(members of the Church) in Rome. See Rom 1:6-9

[Vance]

as Paul writes to Titus,

"3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

In context, this particular use of the word and ties the two equal ideas together. Washing of regeneration and renewing are both connected to the Holy Ghost, not water baptism.

Wrong again!

Did you even read it?

The two ideas, Baptism and the Holy Ghost are both connected to salvation.

DUH!!

[Vance]

The fact that Mark 16:16 doesn't support the idea that baptism is necessary for salvation is found in the later part of the verse, where Jesus didn't repeat the idea that salvation was directly connected to baptism, only belief.

The fact that Mark 16:16 (among others) DOES support the idea that Baptism is necessary for salvation. Jesus doesn't have to repeat what all in his company ALREADY KNEW!!!!!

You are too belligerent to remain in the thread.

[cdowis]

There are a couple things. One is that not every Apostle, Prophet, etc. wrote things, nor was everything they wrote canonized. So just because modern prophets in evangelical circles don't make claims about writing scripture doesn't disqualify them as prophets.

Second when was the last writing of an LDS Prophet canonized? Just curious. I don't think I've heard of anything very recent, yet you would still claim they are valid prophets right?

The prophet has many roles.

Matt 16 [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Eph 2 [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

Every year in General Conference we give formal assent and recognition that they are prophets.

Now, do the Evangelists churches recognize the authority of those who claim to be prophets, as the foundation of the church, having special authority as prophets and apostles? Do they give recognition of their teachings, their revelations as authoritative and binding on them for doctrine.

Or is the title "prophet" just another title, like Bishop, Pastor, Evangelist, etc. Just a title with no special authority.

Tell us about "Prophetess Bynum". Is she recognized by the evangelistic churches for her prophetic authority. Would it be appropriate to consider canonizing her teachings for universal recognition?

Please tell us just one of those evangelist prophets where canonization of their words would be recognized by the evangelist churches and binding on them for doctrine.

Edited March 2, 2013 by cdowis

[danielwoods]

The prophet has many roles.

Matt 16 [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Eph 2 [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

Every year in General Conference we give formal assent and recognition that they are prophets.

Now, do the Evangelists churches recognize the authority of those who claim to be prophets, as the foundation of the church, having special authority as prophets and apostles? Do they give recognition of their teachings, their revelations as authoritative and binding on them for doctrine.

Or is the title "prophet" just another title, like Bishop, Pastor, Evangelist, etc. Just a title with no special authority.

Tell us about "Prophetess Bynum". Is she recognized by the evangelistic churches for her prophetic authority. Would it be appropriate to consider canonizing her teachings for universal recognition?

Please tell us just one of those evangelist prophets where canonization of their words would be recognized by the evangelist churches and binding on them for doctrine.

I agree the prophet has many roles, while you are grilling me for something you know the evangelical world doesn't do (ie recognition of their teachings, their revelations as authoritative and binding on them for doctrine) you didn't answer my question which poses the same question for you. When was the last time one of your prophets teachings, revelations was canonized as scripture?

The title prophet indicates what gift they have. Evangelical churches aren't "authority based" like the LDS, Catholic, Greek Orthodox churches, instead they seek Christ's authority only. So, some churches may or may not recognize Ms. Bynum as a Prophetess, depending what they feel the HS and the evidence is telling them.

[Anakin7]

The thess. passages don't really talk about faith being a work directly. They motivate people to work, sure. I think one of the best discussions of it is found in Romans 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?² If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.³ What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”^[a]

⁴ Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. ⁵ However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. ⁶ David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"

Notice, the contrast made between works and faith. Righteousness is credit to us based on faith not works. It appears to me that the word "words" is used to denote a physical activity, which faith is not.

Been away for awhile. My fellow LDS JEDi KNIGHTS have given great responses [sorry about Vance he can be a little extreme at times in his posts. The above passages can mean Faith is a work or one needs to work Faith, either way Faith [pistis - which means faithfullness/fidelity/loyalty/obedience/trust along with a # of other definitional meanings as used by The Anchient Prophets and Apostles in Biblical Times. One must strive and obey to be and stay Saved.

May True Grace Be With You

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited March 2, 2013 by Anakin7

[cdowis]

I agree the prophet has many roles, while you are grilling me for something you know the evangelical world doesn't do (ie recognition of their teachings, their revelations as authoritative and binding on them for doctrine) you didn't answer my question which poses the same question for you. When was the last time one of your prophets teachings, revelations was canonized as scripture?

Sept 30, 1978, although there have been other proclamations since then that have been considered almost as scripture, such as The Family -- a Proclamation.

The title prophet indicates what gift they have. Evangelical churches aren't "authority based" like the LDS, Catholic, Greek Orthodox churches, instead they seek Christ's authority only. So, some churches may or may not recognize Ms. Bynum as a Prophetess, depending what they feel the HS and the evidence is telling them.

The Evangelical church does not have prophets in the Biblical sense of the word. It is simply wishful thinking, just calling a person with charisma, calling them "anointed" or prophets. Just ask a question or two, and it is clear that they are not recognized as such.

[danielwoods]

Been away for awhile. My fellow LDS JEDi KNIGHTS have given great responses [sorry about Vance he can be a little extreme at times in his posts. The above passages can mean Faith is a work or one needs to work Faith, either way Faith [pistis - which means faithfullness/fidelity/loyalty/obedience/trust along with a # of other definitional meanings as used by The Anchient Prophets and Apostles in Biblical Times. One must strive and obey to be and stay Saved.

May True Grace Be With You

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

There's a large difference between receiving the gift of eternal life that Jesus gives us for free, and the sanctification process that the Spirit brings us through as we grow. I have been talking about the former only, not the later.

[danielwoods]

Sept 30, 1978, although there have been other proclamations since then that have been considered almost as scripture, such as The Family -- a Proclamation.

The title prophet indicates what gift they have. Evangelical churches aren't "authority based" like the LDS, Catholic, Greek Orthodox churches, instead they seek Christ's authority only. So, some churches may or may not recognize Ms. Bynum as a Prophetess, depending what they feel the HS and the evidence is telling them.

The Evangelical church does not have prophets in the Biblical sense of the word. It is simply wishful thinking, just calling a person with charisma, calling them "anointed" or prophets. Just ask a question or two, and it is clear that they are not recognized as such.

I wouldn't expect a non-evangelical to acknowledge what evangelicals acknowledge as truth. You may call it what you will, doesn't really matter.

[Anakin7]

There's a large difference between receiving the gift of eternal life that Jesus gives us for free, and the sanctification process that the Spirit brings us through as we grow. I have been talking about the former only, not the later.

Yes Jesus Christ offers us The Free Gift of Eternal life 2 Nephi 2:4 but we must come to him with True Faith [pistis] accepting him as our Lord of Life,Lord, Redeemer,Saviour,God,King,Master, Repent, Be Baptized by an authorized servant, recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost by an authorized servant. We must show with a humble heart and a contrite spirit that we want/will follow him by sacrificing our old man to become a new man. We must show that we are worthy to recieve that Awesome Gift. Salvation is absolutly Free, But It Will cost Us Our Very Lives [ A quote from non LDS N.T scholar Craig Blomberg] . We need to show a mental/physical action [pistis] that we accept the Gift.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[cdowis]

I wouldn't expect a non-evangelical to acknowledge what evangelicals acknowledge as truth. You may call it what you will, doesn't really matter.

You misread my post.

Let's make this easy. Please give us the name and information about an Evangelist prophet, one who is generally acknowledged as such. How about Prophetess Juanita Bynum, for example. Is her preachng accepted as revelations among the Baptists?

Just one example of a prophet and their revelations where the Lord clarified doctrinal issues thru them.

Edited March 4, 2013 by cdowis

[Gervin]

You misread my post.

Let's make this easy. Please give us the name and information about an Evangelist prophet, one who is generally acknowledged as such. How about Prophetess Juanita Bynum, for example. Is her preachng accepted as revelations among the Baptists?

Just one example of a prophet and their revelations where the Lord clarified doctrinal issues thru them.

Prophecy can be related to foretelling or forthtelling. I believe that Alistair Begg, Senior Pastor of Cleveland's Parkside Church, has the gift of prophecy.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Gervin

[cdowis]

Prophecy can be related to foretelling or forthtelling. I believe that Alistair Begg, Senior Pastor of Cleveland's Parkside Church, has the gift of prophecy.

They may be related, but they are not the same thing. I understand the difference between a prophet and a fortuneteller.

Edited March 4, 2013 by cdowis

[danielwoods]

You misread my post.

Let's make this easy. Please give us the name and information about an Evangelist prophet, one who is generally acknowledged as such. How about Prophetess Juanita Bynum, for example. Is her preachng accepted as revelations among the Baptists?

Just one example of a prophet and their revelations where the Lord clarified doctrinal issues thru them.

The role of a prophet isn't to clarify doctrinal issues. That would be the role of a teacher.

As for Juanita Bynum, I can't speak for the Baptists, but I'm pretty sure they don't accept her revelations. I would say that most if not all EV oriented folks believe in the test all spirits principle. No one has infallibility only God. So, even if the prophet was trustworthy, we'd still analyze and test what they say against what is already known to be true.

[danielwoods]

Yes Jesus Christ offers us The Free Gift of Eternal life 2 Nephi 2:4 but we must come to him with True Faith [pistis] accepting him as our Lord of Life,Lord, Redeemer,Saviour,God,King,Master, Repent, Be Baptized by an authorized servant, recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost by an authorized servant. We must show with a humble heart and a contrite spirit that we want/will follow him by sacrificing our old man to become a new man. We must show that we are worthy to recieve that Awesome Gift. Salvation is absolutly Free, But It Will cost Us Our Very Lives [ A quote from non LDS N.T scholar Craig Blomberg] . We need to show a mental/physical action [pistis] that we accept the Gift.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

The crux of the difference between the LDS view and the EV view, is found in your statement, "We must show that we are worthy to recieve that Awesome Gift."

As a contrast to that concept are the scriptures that say, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us " (Rom. 5: 8 , or "God who justifies the ungodly" (Rom. 4:5) or "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us..." Titus 3:5).

In other words we would say, "We are unworthy to receive your Awesome Gift, and nothing we do will ever make us worthy, but thanks be to God for extending his grace and mercy to us through Christ alone we are saved."

Edited March 4, 2013 by danielwoods

[Calm]

In other words we would say, "We are unworthy to receive your Awesome Gift, and nothing we do will ever make us worthy, but thanks be to God for extending his grace and mercy to us through Christ alone we are saved."

LDS are not worthy in the sense we deserve his Gifts, we are only worthy in the sense that we have prepared ourselves to receive them in the way he has asked us to do so.

For example, a parent tells a child that he would love to give him a puppy, but that he must show that he will take care of it once it is here so it won't be hurt or abused and he sets the child some tasks to perform to prepare him to take care of the dog. This does not mean in any way the child deserves the dog itself or has earned it. If it makes it easier, one can think of the dog as a prizewinning dog worth tens of thousands of dollars....the child preparing a place for the dog to sleep by his bed and a place to eat in the kitchen and a schedule to keep track of the care the dog needs does not in any way affect the value of the dog or the ability of the child to purchase it. All it affects is the willingness of the parent to bestow the gift on the child, the child through those efforts to prepare himself...and most often those efforts are helped out by the parent as well leaving the child even more in debt to him....has become worthy to receive the dog as a gift, not as something he has earned or somehow has a right to have.

Edited March 4, 2013 by calmoriah

[danielwoods]

LDS are not worthy in the sense we deserve his Gifts, we are only worthy in the sense that we have prepared ourselves to receive them in the way he has asked us to do so.

For example, a parent tells a child that he would love to give him a puppy, but that he must show that he will take care of it once it is here so it won't be hurt or abused and he sets the child some tasks to perform to prepare him to take care of the dog. This does not mean in any way the child deserves the dog itself or has earned it. If it makes it easier, one can think of the dog as a prizewinning dog worth tens of thousands of dollars....the child preparing a place for the dog to sleep by his bed and a place to eat in the kitchen and a schedule to keep track of the care the dog needs does not in any way affect the value of the dog or the ability of the child to purchase it. All it affects is the willingness of the parent to bestow the gift on the child, the child through those efforts to prepare himself...and most often those efforts are helped out by the parent as well leaving the child even more in debt to him....has become worthy to receive the dog as a gift, not as something he has earned or somehow has a right to have.

Thanks. I appreciate the analogy. I'm trying to think of a scripture that captures that concept, "worthy to receive the gift."

All I can come up with are scriptures that speak to the "running the race..." and "pressing on...", which are, at least in the EV mind a different topic. One of sanctification not salvation. The process that every believer continues through out their life here on earth. So, sanctification is what we do (or rather we let Christ do through us) and salvation is what Christ did for us completely, at least in my view.

[Anakin7]

From my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive on the concept of worthiness in The Holy Scriptures- http://www.14lds.com/worth.htm

Thanks JEDI Knight calmoriah for your contribution post.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited March 4, 2013 by Anakin7

[cdowis]

The role of a prophet isn't to clarify doctrinal issues. That would be the role of a teacher.

I think you have confirmed my point. Peter, Paul, Timothy and the other prophets wrote epistles to clarify doctrine, and their word became canonized as scripture.

In the present day, in the historic Christian churches, the prophets have been replaced by the theologians and Bible scholars. I suspect that you are talking about Sunday School teachers who play a role in teaching individuals in a classroom setting, but we are not talking about that role.

You might want to look at Eph. 2:19-20 and 4: 11-14,where the church organization is laid out in the Bible.

[cdowis]

dup

Edited March 4, 2013 by cdowis

[Dr.Onendagus]

Marlin K. Jensen indicated about a year ago that members of our own church are leaving en mass.

source: http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/Number-of-faithful-Mormons-rapidly-declining/rvih3gOKxEm5om9IYJYnRA.cspx

There was also another article in Salon about a month ago that discusses this trend.

source: http://www.salon.com/2013/01/16/religion_may_not_survive_the_internet/

[danielwoods]

From my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive on the concept of worthiness in The Holy Scriptures- http://www.14lds.com/worth.htm

Thanks JEDI Knight calmoriah for your contribution post.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Thanks for the link. There are so many things that I could respond to from that article, however I feel it would be in vain. Nothing in the article that I could find actually deals with salvation, but rather sanctification, though the writer thinks he's writing about salvation.

[danielwoods]

I think you have confirmed my point. Peter, Paul, Timothy and the other prophets wrote epistles to clarify doctrine, and their word became canonized as scripture.

In the present day, in the historic Christian churches, the prophets have been replaced by the theologians and Bible scholars. I suspect that you are talking about Sunday School teachers who play a role in teaching individuals in a classroom setting, but we are not talking about that role.

You might want to look at Eph. 2:19-20 and 4: 11-14,where the church organization is laid out in the Bible.

Peter, Paul wrote letters to specific people, which we use as scripture to learn about doctrine. They also were Apostles, prophets, and evangelists. Timothy wrote no epistles, rather he was a pastor and teacher, he may also have had the gift of prophecy, I don't know.

Eph. 4:^{11 "}So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, ¹² to equip his people for works of service"

Notice that it is Christ himself who gives, not any organization. That is the difference between an authority based organization, and the Evangelical system which relies on individual revelation and discernment, not a central organization. Christ said, "I will build my Church."

[cdowis]

Peter, Paul wrote letters to specific people, which we use as scripture to learn about doctrine. They also were Apostles, prophets, and evangelists. Timothy wrote no epistles, rather he was a pastor and teacher, he may also have had the gift of prophecy, I don't know.

Eph. 4:^{11 "}So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,¹² to equip his people for works of service"

Notice that it is Christ himself who gives, not any organization. That is the difference between an authority based organization, and the Evangelical system which relies on individual revelation and discernment, not a central organization. Christ said, "I will build my Church."

You have just demonstrated my point, that the historic Christian church has replaced the prophets and apostles with theologians and Bible scholars. This church has a foundation of apostles and prophets, with Christ as the cornerstone and will continue until Christ will come to reign on the earth.

First you dismiss the doctrine of baptism, and now declare that prophets and apostles are unnecessary ==>> despite the clear teaching of the scriptures.

Christ Himself found it necessary to restore the Church and the Gospel in our day. The church has a foundation of apostles and prophets, with Christ as the chief cornerstone. This organization will continue until we "come into a unity of the faith".

Edited March 5, 2013 by cdowis