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Imminent Death Of Evangelical Christianity?

cdowis

By cdowis
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Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

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Posted (edited)

Neither the thief on the cross nor Jesus went to heaven that day, but to "paradise". And that "paradise" was not heaven because three days later, Jesus admitted that He had yet to go to heaven.

Hiding false doctrine behind that thief will not work here.

For another interpetation from a non LDS Christian See - http://www.hallvwort...ross.html#thief

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited by Anakin7
  • 3 weeks later...
coolrok7 Proficient

coolrok7

Posted
Posted

Anakin7:

Once again late to a Salvation discussion. From my understanding True LDS Doctrine teaches that we Totaly Believe in Salvation by Grace Alone Through Faith Alone . . .We are Saved by True Grace through True Faith. As The Late Bruce R. McConkie taught - "Salvation comes in and through his [Jesus Christ] Atoning Blood and in no other way" and that "Salvation is Free". . . .

Okay lets read the WHOLE address in CONTEXT by Neal A. Maxwell that coolrok references. . . .

Okay, but it doesn’t change at all what was said. The idea of “meriting eternal life” is at odds with the Biblical teaching of Paul. How do you then arrive at the above conclusion in light of the following?:

Erroneous Teachings of Christian Churches

One erroneous teaching of many Christian churches is: By faith alone we are saved. This false doctrine would relieve man from the responsibility of his acts other than to confess a belief in God, and would teach man that no matter how great the sin, a confession would bring him complete forgiveness and salvation. What the world needs is more preaching of the necessity of abstaining from sin and of living useful and righteous lives, and less preaching of forgiveness of sin. . . . (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, LeGrand Richards)

. . .This second heresy-and it is the prevailing delusion and mania that prevails to this day in the great evangelical body of Protestantism-is the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law. . . .It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins.” (Bruce R. McConkie, BYU Devotional, 1984 to a Mormon audience by a Mormon General Authority)

By the way the, “while we continue to live in our sins” is not what is taught.

Your understanding is not the Church’s understanding, which incorrectly redefines Biblical teaching at certain points. It becomes “after all we can do” which is not grace when one earns/works for/merits something:

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

You May Earn Salvation through Christ (THE PURPOSE OF LIFE pamphlet, p.4)

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

Resurrection is not the gift, eternal life is (resurrection is the spirit residing again in a physical form at the resurrection, which in the case of believers is a glorified one like Jesus’ as sheep while the goats will have a physical non-glorified body but under punishment with the devil and the fallen angels for eternity).

The correct Biblical teaching (Law and Gospel) of the gift (none of this at all detracts from the command of baptism) as Jesus died fulfilling the law perfectly for us so that His righteousness becomes ours:

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

From the, “WHAT THE MORMONS THINK OF CHRIST” pamphlet, under the section- Blood of Christ, it says:

Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one’s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean. (pp.19-20)

Again the Biblical teaching (which is not just “mere belief” but belief to the saving of the soul)

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Romans 10:8-11)

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1:6-7)

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; . . . But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. . . . And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (Ephesians 1:7; 2:13, 16-17)

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 5:9-10)

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1 Peter 1:18-19)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

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Posted (edited)

coolrock7,

I have asked this question several times, with no response. Perhaps you can help us out, where others have feared to tread.

Is baptism necessary for salvation?

What does Christ have to say about this? You might look at the red letter edition of the NT if you are unsure. Everything spoken by Christ is in red letters, and I note that none of the epistles of Paul are in red. Can we agree to stay with the vine, rather with the branch.

Edited by cdowis
Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

Posted
Posted

coolrock7,

I have asked this question several times, with no response. Perhaps you can help us out, where others have feared to tread.

Is baptism necessary for salvation?

What does Christ have to say about this? You might look at the red letter edition of the NT if you are unsure. Everything spoken by Christ is in red letters, and I note that none of the epistles of Paul are in red. Can we agree to stay with the vine, rather with the branch.

As a Lutheran christian [coolrok] Martin Luther and Lutheranism teach that Baptism is nessasary for salvation but it is the work of God not man, I hope I got that right.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

Posted
Posted (edited)

As to you coolrok try reading 2 Nephi 25:23 again but read the whole context before and after that verse. You are making claims about that scripture that bears false witness against us. Please check your own house [ Others have, both LDS and non LDS and have found problems]

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin 7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited by Anakin7
Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

Posted
Posted

If you think he has a valid point, it would be helpful to give a shot synopsis, rather than to expect us to slog thru his arguments. My posts are short and to the point.

I apologize, I just wanted to show another point of view from a non LDS Christian viewpoint. May True Grace Be with You.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin 7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

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As a Lutheran christian [coolrok] Martin Luther and Lutheranism teach that Baptism is nessasary for salvation but it is the work of God not man, I hope I got that right.

OK, then our works, which are required for salvation, are the works of God, and only appear to be works of man. I give charity to the hungry, and that is a work of God, not of myself.

Simply brilliant. I think my brain is going to explode.

Edited by cdowis
danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

Posted
Posted

coolrock7,

I have asked this question several times, with no response. Perhaps you can help us out, where others have feared to tread.

Is baptism necessary for salvation?

What does Christ have to say about this? You might look at the red letter edition of the NT if you are unsure. Everything spoken by Christ is in red letters, and I note that none of the epistles of Paul are in red. Can we agree to stay with the vine, rather with the branch.

What is necessary for salvation? Regenerative work of the Spirit.

I think Greg Koukl explains it pretty well.

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5367

"When salvation is referred to doctrinally as a theological reality itself, baptism does not come into the picture. We see baptism happening connected with salvation, but incidental to the act of salvation. In other words, it doesn't procure salvation. When people become Christian, they get baptized as they ought because Jesus commanded it. But they get baptized because they've been saved, regenerated, not in order to get saved. We see that clearly in Acts 10 and Peter argues that even with the Jewish Council there in Acts 15. That's pretty straightforward, as far as I'm concerned.

To me, this is a very profound biblical proof that water is not necessary for salvation."

cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

What is necessary for salvation? Regenerative work of the Spirit.

I think Greg Koukl explains it pretty well.

http://www.str.org/s...Article&id=5367

"When salvation is referred to doctrinally as a theological reality itself, baptism does not come into the picture. We see baptism happening connected with salvation, but incidental to the act of salvation. In other words, it doesn't procure salvation. When people become Christian, they get baptized as they ought because Jesus commanded it. But they get baptized because they've been saved, regenerated, not in order to get saved. We see that clearly in Acts 10 and Peter argues that even with the Jewish Council there in Acts 15. That's pretty straightforward, as far as I'm concerned.

To me, this is a very profound biblical proof that water is not necessary for salvation."

I asked for a red letter edition of the NT, and explanation in the words of Christ. And this is what I get? Some guy named **GREG** telling us what the Bible "obviously" teaches.

Baptism is not necessary for salvation, and that is the profound doctrine that you want to share with us.

Greg, let me ask you a very simple question, if someone does NOT get baptized, can they be saved. I could be wrong, but as a Bible expert, you seem to be saying that it is optional. No baptism, no big deal as long as you move your mouth and declare your belief in Christ (while ignoring what He teaches).

Well, I guess if I have to choose between **GREG** and the words and teachings of Christ, I will choose the latter. Somehow Greg missed those verses where Christ gave His answer.

Edited by cdowis
danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

Posted
Posted

I asked for a red letter edition of the NT, and explanation in the words of Christ. And this is what I get? Some guy named **GREG** telling us what the Bible "obviously" teaches.

Baptism is not necessary for salvation, and that is the profound doctrine that you want to share with us.

Greg, let me ask you a very simple question, if someone does NOT get baptized, can they be saved. I could be wrong, but as a Bible expert, you seem to be saying that it is optional. No baptism, no big deal as long as you move your mouth and declare your belief in Christ (while ignoring what He teaches).

Well, I guess if I have to choose between **GREG** and the words and teachings of Christ, I will choose the latter. Somehow Greg missed those verses where Christ gave His answer.

I'm not greg, however, what I posted was the evangelical view of baptism (for the most part). I thought greg's explanation was pretty clear.

I attempted to provide a more full answer, than simply quoting a few passages from the gospels. As I'm sure you'd agree that the rest of the NT is also Christ's words as well.

With reference to your question, there is no passage that states that baptism is what causes regeneration. Rather it is the Spirit that does that. The symbolic act of baptism is just that, a way to physically proclaim what has already happened on the inside of those who are already saved. So, of course those who did not get baptized are already saved, because only saved people get baptized in the first place (at least according to the NT).

Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

Posted
Posted (edited)

I wonder if the Eary Post N.T Apostalic Fathers and other church leaders would agree ?.

The Atonement, It Is The Central Doctrine

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin Luke Skywalker

Edited by Anakin7
cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

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I'm not greg, however, what I posted was the evangelical view of baptism (for the most part). I thought greg's explanation was pretty clear.

Greg is an example where the historic church replaced the prophets and apostles with theologians and Bible scholars.

Think about this for a moment. What was the change that occurred to Saul when he became Paul? He was transformed to a prophet, from a learned Pharasee, a theologian.

Greg is doing the best he can to defend the doctrines of his church, even as Saul defended traditional Judiasm from Christian doctrine. Both Greg and Saul had sound arguments spoken with clarity.

I attempted to provide a more full answer, than simply quoting a few passages from the gospels. As I'm sure you'd agree that the rest of the NT is also Christ's words as well.

I am very familiar with what Christ taught, having read the NT many times, including the Greek. Greg clearly contradicts what Christ taught, but that is to be expected since the doctrine he is defending the indefensible in light of Christ's teaching. Again, I refer you to the red letter edition of the scriptures. But he did the best he could under the circumstances.

He made a mighty effort to ignore the words of Christ.

With reference to your question, there is no passage that states that baptism is what causes regeneration.

Perhaps you should actually read my post. I made no comment on the purpose of baptism and only asked a question.

Rather it is the Spirit that does that. The symbolic act of baptism is just that, a way to physically proclaim what has already happened on the inside of those who are already saved. So, of course those who did not get baptized are already saved, because only saved people get baptized in the first place (at least according to the NT).

In the future, please copy my exact words rather than making up a straw argument. It is very insulting and you really owe me an apology. Once again, I make no claim on the purpose of baptism, only that it is a requirement for salvation, as taught by our Saviour.

Thank you for you straight forward answer -- you clearly state "NO" it is not necessary.

I very much understand your reluctance to quote the words of Jesus, and decided to quote the teachings of one of your theologians. Surely you would agree that each of us will be held responsible for His teachings.

Closing our eyes to His words will not shield us from that responsibility.

Edited by cdowis
danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

Posted
Posted

You asked, "Is baptism necessary for salvation?"

I replied, "What is necessary for salvation? Regenerative work of the Spirit."

If you'd like to claim that Christ said that baptism is necessary for salvation, then be my guest and quote him. Since you didn't quote any passages, then I don't know what exact quote you might be referring to. Since you seem to be offended if I guess (which wasn't ever my intention). I won't guess which passage you're thinking of out of fear that you'd claim I'm insulting you again.

cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

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John 3 [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16 [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

Posted
Posted

From my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive : http://www.godtellsu...beliefonly.html

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Not sure your point. If you wish me to guess, I will, but don't be offended if I guessed wrong.

It appears that in your link, there is a quote of Mark 16:16,""He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned."

In your view does this mean that if a person believes and doesn't get baptized, then he is therefore not saved, but condemned in your view?

danielwoods Grand Master

danielwoods

Posted
Posted (edited)

John 3 [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16 [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Notice that it's only those who disbelieve who are damned. Not those who disbelieve and who aren't baptized.

However the same question remains, is a believer who isn't baptized not saved in your view?

Edit: As for the John 3 passage, it can't be a reference to baptism that hadn't even been taught yet. He was talking to Nicodemus, a jewish teacher, he wouldn't have understood the phrase "born of water" to mean a "Christian" baptism. Rather, it's most likely a reference to natural birth, as he states in the following sentence, "6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Further, there is no reference that I know of where "born of water" indicates baptism.

Edited by danielwoods
Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

Posted
Posted (edited)

Not sure your point. If you wish me to guess, I will, but don't be offended if I guessed wrong.

It appears that in your link, there is a quote of Mark 16:16,""He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned."

In your view does this mean that if a person believes and doesn't get baptized, then he is therefore not saved, but condemned in your view?

From my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive : http://www.godtellsus.com/salvationbybeliefonly.html

Edited by Anakin7
Anakin7 Veteran

Anakin7

Posted
Posted (edited)

Not sure your point. If you wish me to guess, I will, but don't be offended if I guessed wrong.

It appears that in your link, there is a quote of Mark 16:16,""He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned."

In your view does this mean that if a person believes and doesn't get baptized, then he is therefore not saved, but condemned in your view?

That person has rejected GOD's council to be Baptized - Luke 7:29-30. If you reject God's council can you be Saved Into The Kingdom Of Heaven ?.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited by Anakin7
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