Imminent Death Of Evangelical Christianity?

[danielwoods]

I am not sure what you are looking for here. I gave you an example.

So, tell me, in the example I gave, is the car (the reward for straight A's for a year) a gift or not?

Did your child, by virtue of getting straight A's for a year, by nature, earn the full value of the car?

Did your child, by virtue of getting straight A's for a year, by nature, earn anything that could be exchanged for a portion of the value of the car?

What (or who) made up the difference between what the child produced and the full value of the car?

In your example, the reward of a Car for straight A's is a payment for getting straight A's.

It is a contract between two parties. One who works (straight A's) and one who pays (the car). It is not a gift, but payment.

Is the value of the car equal to getting straight A's? Of course it is if that is what the settled value of getting straight A's is according the agreed contract.

There you go again, with the false dichotomy. No oposition is involved. The one form of gift (the reward) is not opposed to or opposite of the other form of gift.

So you see them as different forms of gifts?

Where one is free and the other is not?

[Vance]

In your example, the reward of a Car for straight A's is a payment for getting straight A's.

Wrong. It is a gift.

It is a contract between two parties. One who works (straight A's) and one who pays (the car). It is not a gift, but payment.

No contract was involved, only a promise.

The one who worked, worked for straight A's, an so, did not, in any way, earn any part or value of the car. The car was all a gift, the child, in no way, earned any value of the car by the "work" done.

Is the value of the car equal to getting straight A's? Of course it is if that is what the settled value of getting straight A's is according the agreed contract.

Nope, getting straight A's neither earned a part or a whole car. If getting straight A's for a year earned the car, THEN EVERY STUDENT EVERYWHERE that got straight A's for a year would AUTOMATICALLY by nature receive a car.

And that is why evangelical anti-mormons ALWAYS get it wrong.

So you see them as different forms of gifts?

They ARE both gifts.

Where one is free and the other is not?

Both are free to the person on the receiving end, for in neither case was the gift, by nature, "earned".

[danielwoods]

Wrong. It is a gift.

No contract was involved, only a promise.

The one who worked, worked for straight A's, an so, did not, in any way, earn any part or value of the car. The car was all a gift, the child, in no way, earned any value of the car by the "work" done.

Nope, getting straight A's neither earned a part or a whole car. If getting straight A's for a year earned the car, THEN EVERY STUDENT EVERYWHERE that got straight A's for a year would AUTOMATICALLY by nature receive a car.

And that is why evangelical anti-mormons ALWAYS get it wrong.

They ARE both gifts.

Both are free to the person on the receiving end, for in neither case was the gift, by nature, "earned".

Thanks. I do find your view interesting.

Understand that nothing has value in and of itself, until value is placed on it by a person. Gold for example, is simply a form of metal. Yet, it is highly valued by many, but it has no intrinsic value in and of itself. The value is placed there by the parties who decide what the value is. So, the value of straight A's can be anything the parties involved want it to be, it could be nothing or it could be a billion dollars.

A promise is a form of a contract, just like any agreement is between two parties.

Ephesians 2:^{8 "}For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, ⁹ not of works, lest anyone should boast. ¹⁰ For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

This verse seems to clearly indicate the type of gift it is talking about. That not of works, lest anyone should boast. We are his workmanship, not our own workmanship.

[Vance]

Thanks. I do find your view interesting.

Understand that nothing has value in and of itself, until value is placed on it by a person. Gold for example, is simply a form of metal. Yet, it is highly valued by many, but it has no intrinsic value in and of itself. The value is placed there by the parties who decide what the value is. So, the value of straight A's can be anything the parties involved want it to be, it could be nothing or it could be a billion dollars.

A promise is a form of a contract, just like any agreement is between two parties.

Ephesians 2:^{8 "}For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, ⁹ not of works, lest anyone should boast. ¹⁰ For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

This verse seems to clearly indicate the type of gift it is talking about. That not of works, lest anyone should boast. We are his workmanship, not our own workmanship.

The "works" Paul is referring to are the works of the law of Moses. Salvation is not found in the works of the law of Moses. So it doesn't matter how obedient you are to the law of Moses. Boasting about how well you live the law of Moses is pointless, because salvation comes through the gift of the Gospels of Jesus Christ or as Paul calls it "faith".

Edited December 21, 2012 by Vance

[Calm]

In your example, the reward of a Car for straight A's is a payment for getting straight A's.

Doesn't have to be, the parent could just be happy that the child got straight A's and wants to celebrate with the child for doing so.

A man turns in $1000 he found in a wallet. The owner is so delighted to find an honest man that he gives him $1,000,000 as a reward. Is the $1,000,000 payment for the man's honesty or a gift to an honest man?

Edited December 22, 2012 by calmoriah

[danielwoods]

Doesn't have to be, the parent could just be happy that the child got straight A's and wants to celebrate with the child for doing so.

A man turns in $1000 he found in a wallet. The owner is so delighted to find an honest man that he gives him $1,000,000 as a reward. Is the $1,000,000 payment for the man's honesty or a gift to an honest man?

In the example given above by Vance, the promise by the parents is the establishment of a contract. I can't find the case on line, but it has happened, where the student was promised a car and wasn't given one, and sued their parents and won.

Now you are right, "it doesn't have to be..." the parents can do what ever they'd like, but once a promise is made a contract is established.

With the case of the money found, it is only "payment" if it was agreed before hand that he'd pay that much. If not it is a gift.

[Calm]

Good luck with taking the Lord to court if you think he hasn't followed through on his side of the contact.

[Vance]

In the example given above by Vance, the promise by the parents is the establishment of a contract. I can't find the case on line, but it has happened, where the student was promised a car and wasn't given one, and sued their parents and won.

Now you are right, "it doesn't have to be..." the parents can do what ever they'd like, but once a promise is made a contract is established.

With the case of the money found, it is only "payment" if it was agreed before hand that he'd pay that much. If not it is a gift.

You have a problem then, for eternal life is based upon a promise.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Matt 19:17 . . . but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: . . .

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life . . .

Edited December 23, 2012 by Vance

[volgadon]

And yet they certainly appear to be in Greek, as different words indicate different concepts in both languages.

You forget that different words can and do overlap.

[cdowis]

The "works" Paul is referring to are the works of the law of Moses. Salvation is not found in the works of the law of Moses. So it doesn't matter how obedient you are to the law of Moses. Boasting about how well you live the law of Moses is pointless, because salvation comes through the gift of the Gospels of Jesus Christ or as Paul calls it "faith".

This issue is not "works of the Law", but obedience to the atonement agreement that we made with the Lord. Don't conflate "works of the Mosiac law" with obedience to the commandments. When we have "faith" we are willing to keep the commandments, and repent when we violate them.

[Vance]

This issue is not "works of the Law", but obedience to the atonement agreement that we made with the Lord.

Agreed

Don't conflate "works of the Mosiac law" with obedience to the commandments.

I wasn't. That is what the evangelical anti-mormons do, unknowingly of course.

When we have "faith" we are willing to keep the commandments, and repent when we violate them.

Agreed.

[Monster]

Maybe it is just that churches in general have not delivered on what they promised. Lots of rules and stuff to live by but all the rewards are not tangible and are for the hereafter. I think the healthy thing for any religion to survive in a free society is to listen to what the needs of the current members are and stop paying homage to the rules of the past. Religion in general always has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern era. This has always been the case. Mormonism is no different.

[cdowis]

I having difficulty understanding how the "modern rules" will save man. Perhaps these churches who follow after the latest trend will be more successful, but I believe that we built upon a rock, and not on the blowing wind of modern man.

Let the prophets tell us what we should be doing, and not the latest fad of the "modern era", and not the rudderless ship blown by every wind of doctrine.

Edited December 26, 2012 by cdowis

[Monster]

I having difficulty understanding how the "modern rules" will save man. Perhaps these churches who follow after the latest trend will be more successful, but I believe that we built upon a rock, and not on the blowing wind of modern man.

Let the prophets tell us what we should be doing, and not the latest fad of the "modern era", and not the rudderless ship blown by every wind of doctrine.

You assume that because the information and rules are old that they superior. They may be at times but they may just as easily not be. To insist that something is good because my great great grandfather adhered to it is not reason enough to follow any rule or procedure. It has to make sense for the current era. Things change, people change, not to acknowledge this simply means current individuals will lose interest in old ideas. The organization will dwindle all the while the members wondering what went wrong. Problem with most religions Evangelicals included is they are so sure they have God on their side and therefore could not possibly be in error. The organizations over time will just become irrelevant unless they keep current. You can only threaten people in a free society with hell fire for so long before they realize it is not so.

If your belief is that we do only what prophets tell us what to do well then that would mean zero progression. I see nothing forward thinking in what most religious leaders say. It is all backwards trying to bring everyone back to some ideal of they way they perceived the past to be. As if that is somehow better.

[coolrok7]

cdowis, on 18 December 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

I believe that the rise of the TV evangelist has had a profound effect, where church goers have become church watchers. You watch TV and occasionally call an 800 number and give your credit card number. I remember how the Tabernacle Choir was a regular part of religious programming, but now religious broadcasters are willing to pay large sums to appear on TV, and those unwilling or unable to pay are crowded out.

Some actually teach that Christians can sit back and "watch God do His work", without direct participation.

(Vance responded): I think that that attitude stems from the belief that they don't have to (or cannot) do anything to affect their salvation. "God does it all" is their mantra. They fully expect God to change them without any effort on their part.

Perhaps not all are like that, but far to many are. (post #4)

In the discussion of the thread op—the, “Imminent Death of Evangelical Christianity” the above is stated. It is already officially taught in Mormonism that (which is not true as there was already pagan worship and Greek philosophy which Paul, who became an advocate of Christianity as a Jew, dealt with in part on Mars Hill in Athens):

Following the death of the apostles, revelation ceased. The authority of God was no longer among men. Christianity sickened and died. In time, a new religion grew up in its place—a religion that professed to be Jesus Christ’s Church, but which in reality was a conglomerate of pagan worship and Greek philosophy, “having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.”. . .that eventually led to the complete apostasy of the true church and the eventual creation of an apostate religion that has been responsible for the extermination of the Messiah’s true followers and the persecution of his chosen people, the Jews. . . . (APOSTASY AND RESTORATION pamphlet, p.9)

Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, he seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. (Acts 17:16-19, 31-32)

We can in a way, “watch God do His work” in the lives of other believers as well as our own while still directly participating as the result of having faith.

While it might be expressed by the “Some” in that way, it is not accurate in portraying what is actually Biblically taught:

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, that the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Romans 10:4-11)

[followerofemmanuel]

I think that that attitude stems from the belief that they don't have to (or cannot) do anything to affect their salvation. "God does it all" is their mantra. They fully expect God to change them without any effort on their part.

Perhaps not all are like that, but far to many are.

No, not all are I'm glad you recognize that and also the false teachings too! Faith without works is dead. Without true faith how can anyone hold fast and continue to live out their faith that bears good fruit consistently.

John 2-14-24 reminds me that someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your^[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my^[b] works. ¹⁹ You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! ²⁰ But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?^{[c] 21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? ²² Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? ²³ And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”^[d] And he was called the friend of God. ²⁴ You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

I also believe though that Christ's true Church will always stand until His coming. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Math 16:18 But sadly, I believe many are mislead, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Math 7:14. Christ did not come to set up denominations, but to find the lost and offer to lead them. That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. Romans 10:9

In Math 7:16 we are reminded that Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? There are many on tv who clearly bear no fruit. Many are counterfeits. "Send me your money and we will pray for you or send you miracle water"...GARBAGE! So many are hungry for truth and are led astray. But there is great judgement for those who mislead people and preach false truths so we can leave that up to God. But there is much work to be done, "The fields are ripe and the workers are few". So I don't want to waste too much time trying to figure out what's happening with various denominations and trust that God is bigger than all the falsehoods in this world.

I'm simply a Christian whose hope remains in the Saviour Jesus Christ whose death and resurrection covers a multitude of sins. And I have cried out to Him to save me and I testify that Jesus is Lord. I will continue to work out my faith in fear and trembling by reverently seeking to obey His teachings and commands and I will pray that I may contiue to die to myself in order that I may better love God with all of my being and to always grow and work towards loving my neighbours as myself to bring Glory to Him who saves me.

Romans 8

⁵ Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. ⁶ The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. ⁷ The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. ⁸ Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

⁹ You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. ¹⁰ But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life^[d] because of righteousness. ¹¹ And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of^[e] his Spirit who lives in you. ¹² Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. ¹³ For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

¹⁴ For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. ¹⁵ The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.^[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,^[g] Father.” ¹⁶ The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. ¹⁷ Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

[Damien the Leper]

See T.U.L.I.P.

Ew, yuck!

[Damien the Leper]

Ah, just more of the false dichotomy stupidity on display.

A reward is a gift. A gift is a reward. Attempting to create a false dichotomy between the two is asinine.

I gave my mother a gift a few months back only because I love her. She didn't do anything to earn or merit the gift. I gave it freely with no expectations on my part.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Valentinus

[Damien the Leper]

This issue is not "works of the Law", but obedience to the atonement agreement that we made with the Lord. Don't conflate "works of the Mosiac law" with obedience to the commandments. When we have "faith" we are willing to keep the commandments, and repent when we violate them.

I don't see evidence that this letter is alluding to the Law, especially not within the context of the entire letter rather than just the 2nd chapter.

[Damien the Leper]

No, not all are I'm glad you recognize that and also the false teachings too! Faith without works is dead. Without true faith how can anyone hold fast and continue to live out their faith that bears good fruit consistently.

John 2-14-24 reminds me that someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your^[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my^[b] works. ¹⁹ You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! ²⁰ But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?^{[c] 21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? ²² Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? ²³ And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”^[d] And he was called the friend of God. ²⁴ You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

I also believe though that Christ's true Church will always stand until His coming. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Math 16:18 But sadly, I believe many are mislead, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Math 7:14. Christ did not come to set up denominations, but to find the lost and offer to lead them. That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. Romans 10:9

In Math 7:16 we are reminded that Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? There are many on tv who clearly bear no fruit. Many are counterfeits. "Send me your money and we will pray for you or send you miracle water"...GARBAGE! So many are hungry for truth and are led astray. But there is great judgement for those who mislead people and preach false truths so we can leave that up to God. But there is much work to be done, "The fields are ripe and the workers are few". So I don't want to waste too much time trying to figure out what's happening with various denominations and trust that God is bigger than all the falsehoods in this world.

I'm simply a Christian whose hope remains in the Saviour Jesus Christ whose death and resurrection covers a multitude of sins. And I have cried out to Him to save me and I testify that Jesus is Lord. I will continue to work out my faith in fear and trembling by reverently seeking to obey His teachings and commands and I will pray that I may contiue to die to myself in order that I may better love God with all of my being and to always grow and work towards loving my neighbours as myself to bring Glory to Him who saves me.

Romans 8

⁵ Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. ⁶ The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. ⁷ The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. ⁸ Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

⁹ You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. ¹⁰ But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life^[d] because of righteousness. ¹¹ And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of^[e] his Spirit who lives in you. ¹² Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. ¹³ For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

¹⁴ For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. ¹⁵ The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.^[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,^[g] Father.” ¹⁶ The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. ¹⁷ Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Absolutely beautiful! Well put.

[Vance]

I gave my mother a gift a few months back only because I love her. She didn't do anything to earn or merit the gift. I gave it freely with no expectations on my part.

Besides giving birth to you, you mean.

[cdowis]

I don't see evidence that this letter is alluding to the Law, especially not within the context of the entire letter rather than just the 2nd chapter.

I appreciate the fact that we see things very differently. The context of his letter is that he is writing to the Judaizers, those who think that salvation is thru the works of the law, including circumcision. This was a constant theme for Paul, as he was the apostle for the gentiles.

This discussion has been going on for over a thousand years, and only was resolved with the calling of a modern prophet and the Restoration of the Gospel.

Edited December 31, 2012 by cdowis

[coolrok7]

It is a Biblical truth that we can do nothing to effect our salvation in which, “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done” (as that is the work of God, our primary Justification) we can and do affect the practical application of our salvation (those that believe) in our Sanctification (being set apart for works of service and becoming mature in our actions), by participating in the truth God would have us to know/do:

The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God (Acts 1:1-3)

Now I say, that the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Galatians 4:1-6)

But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:4-7)

Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:29-30)

God does His work through those who believe (even at times through those who don’t believe). Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost (Zaccheus here being an example):

And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” (Luke 19:9-10)

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” . . .And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:28-29, 35-40)

[Vance]

There you go again, accepting the misinterpreted words of Paul over the clear and plain words of Jesus.

Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Sounds like we have to do something to be saved.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Vance

[ERayR]

Maybe it is just that churches in general have not delivered on what they promised. Lots of rules and stuff to live by but all the rewards are not tangible and are for the hereafter. I think the healthy thing for any religion to survive in a free society is to listen to what the needs of the current members are and stop paying homage to the rules of the past. Religion in general always has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern era. This has always been the case. Mormonism is no different.

Rebellion from God is the same whether or not it is in the drab dress of the past or the colorful garb of the present or in the intriguing wraps of the future.