Forced Obedience And The Brainwashing Of Our Children

[Rob Osborn]

I keep hearing and seeing this reoccurring trend in our church. Parents of teenagers who basically force their children to go to church. I believe honestly that the majority of parents of teenagers within our church make their kids go to church. Honestly I cant understand why? Our founder of this church, Joseph Smith, wasnt forced into certain beliefs when he was a teenager. In fact, he was raised with correct principles and then left to his own to find out the truth on his own. Why then should we not raise our children to be free also?

[Walden]

It was always understood in our household that if we lived under our parent's roof, then LDS church activity was required; sort of a "when in Rome," kind of rule. Besides regular Sunday services, we had to attend Tuesday night youth group/Mutual, and attend seminary during high school.

I was raised in a very LDS home, where even family vacations were often based on LDS history (visits to Palmyra, NY and surrounding areas, and Nauvoo, IL in our youth), our family had strong LDS heritage ties (descendants of Parley Pratt), where every Sunday was spent in church, every Tuesday at Mutual, every weekday at seminary and every opportunity to go to the temple was embraced. I watched my dad serve in the bishopric and my mom was the seminary teacher as well as the RS president during my teens years. We had what many considered to be a devout, LDS family.

Admittedly I was forced to attend church and had it not been for the forcefulness of my parent's conviction, I am sure that my attendance at church would have been rather scarce were it not for my parents.

In the end, I'm not sure how much difference it made, considering that I am now an atheist. My parents raised me with the correct Mormon principles, but in the end, I still strayed.

[volgadon]

It is hard striking the right balance.

[thesometimesaint]

Parents have a legal and moral responsibility to teach good general morals to their children. IE; Not to lie, cheat, or steal.

Edited November 26, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[CV75]

I keep hearing and seeing this reoccurring trend in our church. Parents of teenagers who basically force their children to go to church. I believe honestly that the majority of parents of teenagers within our church make their kids go to church. Honestly I cant understand why? Our founder of this church, Joseph Smith, wasnt forced into certain beliefs when he was a teenager. In fact, he was raised with correct principles and then left to his own to find out the truth on his own. Why then should we not raise our children to be free also?

How often do see this happening? Does "basically" mean there are degrees of influence? If so, at what point does it become "force?" At what point is it less than force, but still part of the trend you observe? And is it recurring or reocurring?

[Anijen]

My wife and I have taken our children to church with us each Sunday since birth. Overtime it becomes the norm and there was never any forcing them to do so. When they were sick they stayed home. When they just did not feel like going they were allowed to stay home however, in that case they were expected to have dinner ready for us when we got home...

[Duncan]

For my 9yr old son it's hard to get him to go to Church and it's hard for him to leave Church!

[JAHS]

I was never forced to go to church as a teen, I actually wanted to go; probably mostly because of all the pretty girls that were in my ward. ;-)

[Calm]

I keep hearing and seeing this reoccurring trend in our church. Parents of teenagers who basically force their children to go to church. I believe honestly that the majority of parents of teenagers within our church make their kids go to church. Honestly I cant understand why? Our founder of this church, Joseph Smith, wasnt forced into certain beliefs when he was a teenager. In fact, he was raised with correct principles and then left to his own to find out the truth on his own. Why then should we not raise our children to be free also?

Perhaps for the same reason they make their kids go to school. Or do you think parents should allow children to make that decision for themselves.

[Saints Alive]

I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand I don't think we should force our kids to believe as we do if they don't, on the other hand sometimes teens just want to be rebellious. I suppose it depends on the situation, striking a good balance is best. And, as always some parents will do better at it than others.

[mfbukowski]

I agree. We really should not teach our children anything. Let them figure it out for themselves. Why bother with reading? All it does is indoctrinate them into a capitalist culture which is corrupt.

Why morals? Why interfere with their natural selves manifesting themselves into complete fulfillment? After all if they beat up on the little ones then all will understand that this is a tough world to live in and you have to make your way scratching and clawing to the top of the heap!

I hate all these namby -pamby people who teach their kids to be kind to each other. All they do is raise weaklings! They are not ready for the real world when they get kicked out at 18. Those stupid kids want to go to college and further the goals of the corrupt capitalist culture they are raised in.

We gotta teach kids to learn how to fight and not worry about killing those alleged "humans" who don't know how to take care of themselves and who would place things like education and their false "civilization" over and above the unfolding of our natural human instincts.

Only the strong survive! We have to teach our kids to be strong! Arbeit macht frei!

Edit: For the sarcasm impaired, this is an example.

Edited November 26, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Freedom]

I have never faced this challenge as a parent, but we do battle to get them to go to other church activities. We teach correct principles and let them govern themselves to a degree, but there are certain practices that they must follow: they must join us for prayer, scripture study, and family home evening. We go to church as a family, and we provide service as a family. None of my children have ever disputed these but if I had one that did I don`t know how long I could continue to force them to do something they do not want to do.

I have a friend whose daughters are now inactive but they understood that, so long as they were at home and dependent upon their father, they had to go to church. They were not forced, it was a matter of respect. When ever they come to visit, they go to church willingly. He did not use church as blackmail, but he made it clear that if they wanted him to respect their wishes, they needed to respect his. I have the same rules - there are family commitments that must be kept. Once an adult, they can make what ever choices they wish, but they will have learned that you don`t just stop doing something because it is not fun.

[cinepro]

My son has had "unbelief issues" almost his entire life (which I attribute at least partly to some social trauma he faced in primary when he was 6 or 7). But we have always made him go to Church. Now that he has friends in the ward, he doesn't protest much. I don't make him go to Seminary (my wife does), and we definitely won't be pressuring him to go on a mission.

Back when he did protest much about going to Church (around age 10 or 11), I explained to him that he wouldn't be staying home by himself watching TV and eating Captain Crunch. If he didn't want to go to our ward, he needed to find another activity that would help him grow spiritually, whether it was another church service, or volunteering at a soup kitchen or something. Being the lazy boy he was at the time, I figured he'd just take the easy road and keep going with us, and he did.

Edited November 26, 2012 by cinepro

[brainburn]

I think I'm lucky to have parents that eventually realized punishing me for missing even a single early morning seminary (while home schooled) was a bad idea for me in particular. I can't be simply motivated to make such commitments, I need to be convinced of it's value or it just won't click with me. I did attend for probably a total of 2 years. I was the most rebellious (and skeptical) of the family, so while the punishments pretty much failed to motivate me, my less rebellious siblings were more easily persuaded and never questioned in any significant sense.

It's funny that now I'm more willing to study scripture than I ever was in high school.

[Walden]

I agree. We really should not teach our children anything. Let them figure it out for themselves. Why bother with reading? All it does is indoctrinate them into a capitalist culture which is corrupt.

Why morals? Why interfere with their natural selves manifesting themselves into complete fulfillment? After all if they beat up on the little ones then all will understand that this is a tough world to live in and you have to make your way scratching and clawing to the top of the heap!

I hate all these namby -pamby people who teach their kids to be kind to each other. All they do is raise weaklings! They are not ready for the real world when they get kicked out at 18. Those stupid kids want to go to college and further the goals of the corrupt capitalist culture they are raised in.

We gotta teach kids to learn how to fight and not worry about killing those alleged "humans" who don't know how to take care of themselves and who would place things like education and their false "civilization" over and above the unfolding of our natural human instincts.

Only the strong survive! We have to teach our kids to be strong! Arbeit macht frei!

Edit: For the sarcasm impaired, this is an example.

Yes, because church services are absolutely the only venue/practice where one can learn morals, learn to be kind to one another, learn to be peaceful and loving, etc.

Edit: For the sarcasm impaired, this is an example.

[changed]

Our bishop has an inactive teenager, he does not force him to come to church. I'm sure a few people in the ward criticize him for that, but to each their own. Every parent hopefully knows their children and knows what will help them out the most.

[Erin15]

Why then should we not raise our children to be free also?

The short answer is because the children will destroy themselves mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually, and their parents will not be held blameless at the final judgement.

The long answer is because when your children are first born they are completely dependant on you, and when they are adults, they are completely independent (at least in theory).

In between those two extremes is a slow gradual process of giving your child more and more freedom as they become responsible enough to manage it. At first you do not let them touch sharp snives, but at a certain point you teach them how to do it safely and superive them until at a certain point you allow them to use them freely when preparing food.

That is just an example. There are thousands of such restrictions that you, as a parent, slowly remove as your child grows and approaches adulthood. Each of these must be considered very carefully, because the consequences of doing it too soon or without proper supervision can be lethal.

The question you pose is when should a child be free to choose for themselves whether or not they want to attend church. I can only say that such an important decision must be made between the parents, the child, and The Lord. It is inappropriate for outsiders like you or I have to voice an opinion unless it is within our own stewardship.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Erin15

[Rob Osborn]

Perhaps for the same reason they make their kids go to school. Or do you think parents should allow children to make that decision for themselves.

Big difference. Religion deals with faith and beliefs- basic religious freedom. I believe in all sorts of strange stuff but that doesn't mean I force those strange beliefs as facts upon my children. Now math and english...thats a different matter altogether. Suppose my child who is say- 15 years old, went with a friend to a Catholic church service and saw Jesus Christ that day and decided to become a Catholic and start attending their services?

My point is that at some point, dependent on circumstances and inspiration, but before they turn 18, they need to choose for themsleves what they believe and how they go about believing in those things regarding faith and religion. Its not proper to make children go to church or force beliefs on them when they are old enough to decide for themselves.

[Duncan]

Our bishop has an inactive teenager, he does not force him to come to church. I'm sure a few people in the ward criticize him for that, but to each their own. Every parent hopefully knows their children and knows what will help them out the most.

Every single one of the Stake Pres. has an inactive child, one of whom is in a Mental health facility. Our last stake president's son killed someone while he fell asleep at the wheel and his life spiralled out of control from there, it's so incredibly sad

not to one up you by any means just sharing my thoughts!

Edited November 26, 2012 by Duncan

[Erin15]

Its not proper to make children go to church or force beliefs on them when they are old enough to decide for themselves.

That is the real heart of the issue. At what age are they old enough? Nine? Twelve? Fifteen? Seventen?

Having several children of my own, I can tell you that the differences in temper, intelligence, maturity, and capability are extremely varied from child to child. It would be impossible and irresponsible to create a one-size-fits-all answer to the question. Like all things, you have to tailor your approach to the individual needs and capabilities of each child.

For some children, the appropriate age might be fifteen. For others, it might be eighteen. It is really impossible for someone on the outside who does not know the child in question to make a good and accurate determination.

From the pejoritive language you are using both in the title and in your subsequent posts, it is obvious that you are judging the decision of other parents in regards to their children. I would point out to you that this is wholly inappropriate. You do not have the necessary information to make that judgement intellectually, and in a gospel sense it is immoral of you to do so because you do not have stewardship over them.

[Rob Osborn]

The short answer is because the children will destroy themselves mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually, and their parents will not be held blameless at the final judgement.

The long answer is because when your children are first born they are completely dependant on you, and when they are adults, they are completely independent (at least in theory).

In between those two extremes is a slow gradual process of giving your child more and more freedom as they become responsible enough to manage it. At first you do not let them touch sharp snives, but at a certain point you teach them how to do it safely and superive them until at a certain point you allow them to use them freely when preparing food.

That is just an example. There are thousands of such restrictions that you, as a parent, slowly remove as your child grows and approaches adulthood. Each of these must be considered very carefully, because the consequences of doing it too soon or without proper supervision can be lethal.

The question you pose is when should a child be free to choose for themselves whether or not they want to attend church. I can only say that such an important decision must be made between the parents, the child, and The Lord. It is inappropriate for outsiders like you or I have to voice an opinion unless it is with our own children.

I wholly agree! AS parents we know, or have access to that knowledge through divine inspiration and wisdom, above any other as to when and how that takes place. Circumstances arise sometimes when suddenly things dont go as once planned and corrections to how goals are achieved happens instead. Its definately a play by play. I do feel that in the end, all good hearted people will be saved and enjoy the same blessings in eternity. I also believe that God places us in different circumstances here on earth in a wide array of different situations for His purposes. Some children go to strong Jewish homes and others go to strong Catholic homes. Some are born into circumstances where they will have no real opportunity for organized religion in their mortal lives while others are born into very organized religious communities. I can't help but to think that in the end all good things, including religion, all funnel or get funneled into one that everyone chooses in the ultimate end and all enjoy eternally alike.

I am also sure God manifests Himself in all good religions and his spiritual gifts are had by all good aspiring religions that seek after Him. I do not see a biased God where only his spiritual things are manifest in that one religion or belief.

[thesometimesaint]

Legally it is 18. But raised my children giving them as much freedom as they could handle.

[Erin15]

I am also sure God manifests Himself in all good religions and his spiritual gifts are had by all good aspiring religions that seek after Him. I do not see a biased God where only his spiritual things are manifest in that one religion or belief.

All religions have a measure of truth which benefits and enlightens its members, and God rewards true faith wherever it manifests. However, that measure of truth and light is mingled with falsehoods and darkness, which impedes spiritual growth, and creates confusion.

We cannot fully worship something we do not understand, and we cannot fully follow the gospel without it having been taught to us.

As Joseph Smith said, we cannot be saved in ignorance. Eventually every soul must learn the restored gospel and partake in the saving ordinances preformed by an authorized servant to be exalted. We are repeatedly told that there is no other way.

God may tolerate the existence of other churches, and they do indeed provide some benefit to their members, but the good hearted members of those churches will have to go through the same process as everyone else before they can return to His presence.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Erin15

[Rob Osborn]

That is the real heart of the issue. At what age are they old enough? Nine? Twelve? Fifteen? Seventen?

Having several children of my own, I can tell you that the differences in temper, intelligence, maturity, and capability are extremely varied from child to child. It would be impossible and irresponsible to create a one-size-fits-all answer to the question. Like all things, you have to tailor your approach to the individual needs and capabilities of each child.

For some children, the appropriate age might be fifteen. For others, it might be eighteen. It is really impossible for someone on the outside who does not know the child in question to make a good and accurate determination.

From the pejoritive language you are using both in the title and in your subsequent posts, it is obvious that you are judging the decision of other parents in regards to their children. I would point out to you that this is wholly inappropriate. You do not have the necessary information to make that judgement intellectually, and in a gospel sense it is immoral of you to do so because you do not have stewardship over them.

I have always taught the youth, including my own that it is wholly up to them how they believe and what they believe in. It is up to them. I can gently persuade (and I do) them into my beliefe system but I cannot force them to choose it. I can lead a horse to water but I cant make it drink... I have never supported the false teaching or belief that teenagers have no choice in church attendance or what or how they should believe. The youth need, or should be guided and persuaded, as the spirit prompts us to help them find and establish their own testimonies and their own real desires on those matters including coming to church on their own free will. I have never been prompted with agreeing with a parents choice in the forcing of their childrens religious beliefs. All I have been prompted to do is to stand by them in their trials. I have never been prompted by the spirit to make any of my children attend church.

[pmccombs1]

I agree. We really should not teach our children anything. Let them figure it out for themselves. Why bother with reading? All it does is indoctrinate them into a capitalist culture which is corrupt.

It seems that the point of the question had more to do with when the teaching ends. Of course we teach our children when they are young; nobody is suggesting that we ought not do this. At some point, however, they grow up and become emancipated. The law puts an age on this event, but the mind often does not. Eventually, the teen begins to grow restless. Typically parents begin to give their older children more freedom in certain areas. Is church attendance one of those areas? Probably there is no universally applicable answer to that.