Forced Obedience And The Brainwashing Of Our Children

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I keep hearing and seeing this reoccurring trend in our church. Parents of teenagers who basically force their children to go to church. I believe honestly that the majority of parents of teenagers within our church make their kids go to church. Honestly I cant understand why? Our founder of this church, Joseph Smith, wasnt forced into certain beliefs when he was a teenager. In fact, he was raised with correct principles and then left to his own to find out the truth on his own. Why then should we not raise our children to be free also?

Having your child attend Church is not "forced obedience", anyone who has been a parent for a few years knows you cannot force obedience. We are commanded to teach, this requires us to sometimes keep a child safe from bad decisions as long as possible. We train them up...in hopes...that when they are old they will not depart from it.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

OOOO OOOOO

Can we debate the "reality" of Santa Claus now?

He certainly seems to be real in the retail industry! Not including the arguable proposition that he was just re-elected president.

I am Santa...so choose your words carefully.

[Walden]

So you think we should restrict privileges of children not attending church?

Forgive me if I am incorrect here, but isn't this line of thinking more in line with Lucifer's plan for salvation, rather than Christ's? Doesn't Lucifer's plan include forced obedience and the absence of free will? Wasn't God's plan based on free agency, that no human would have their agency taken away in an attempt to force righteous behavior?

At what age do you think this gift of free agency should be bestowed on children?

[Kenngo1969]

For my 9yr old son it's hard to get him to go to Church and it's hard for him to leave Church!

I'd say that in that case, one outta two ain't bad!

[Rob Osborn]

Having your child attend Church is not "forced obedience", anyone who has been a parent for a few years knows you cannot force obedience. We are commanded to teach, this requires us to sometimes keep a child safe from bad decisions as long as possible. We train them up...in hopes...that when they are old they will not depart from it.

Having your child attend church is different than "making" them go. When a parent places so many punishments on them for not attending then it becomes a type of force that compells them to attend even if they dont want to go. We may not know exactly why children lose interest in church, but if or when it does, we shouldnt make them attend against their wishes.

[Rob Osborn]

Forgive me if I am incorrect here, but isn't this line of thinking more in line with Lucifer's plan for salvation, rather than Christ's? Doesn't Lucifer's plan include forced obedience and the absence of free will? Wasn't God's plan based on free agency, that no human would have their agency taken away in an attempt to force righteous behavior?

At what age do you think this gift of free agency should be bestowed on children?

I see Satans plan a little differently. I dont believe there was ever any plan put forth that would force obedience. Satans plans are to destroy Gods kingdom. Satans plans are to convince man to sin and bring them captive to his will all the while promising salvation for all which of course is his lie.

When children get around the age of teenagers they need to be able to use their agency to decide. how they want to worship.

[wenglund]

Perhaps for the same reason they make their kids go to school.

Exactly. It is the same reason that parents enforce rules regarding what their children at home can eat or not eat, how much they can play or work, what shows they can or can't watch, when they HAVE to go to bed, where and when and with whom they may go or not, etc. etc.

Contrary to what is suggested in the OP, over the years I have seen a growing trend in parents increasingly shirking their parental responsibilities and either neglecting their children or attempting to be their friends.

This is not to suggest that compulsion or coercion is always good parenting. To me, these significant negative motivators should only be employed as a last resort when other more positive strategies have failed.

As mentioned on another thread, the reluctance of children to attend church typically isn't because of a faith crisis, but rather because of a value/interest crises--there are other things that the children would much prefer doing.

The challenge for parents, then, is either help their children increase their value and interests in the Church and/or use the things their children value and interest more to encourage church attendance and to increase their value and interest in the Church.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited November 27, 2012 by wenglund

[wenglund]

Forgive me if I am incorrect here, but isn't this line of thinking more in line with Lucifer's plan for salvation, rather than Christ's?

Quite the contrary. Unlike with Christ, Lucifer's plan didn't vary the degree or type of law and enforcement depending upon people's level of development and maturity. Lucifer offered a one-size-fits-all approach (i.e. no agency for anyone), whereas Christ offered different levels of laws and different levels of free agency and enforcement tailored to our specific needs (see in particular the difference between the Old and New Testaments).

Lucifer's plan was intended to prevent sin at the expense of personal growth (though he now advocates for sin at the expense of personal growth), whereas Christ's plan was intended to facilitate personal growth at the expense of sin (though decreasing in sin through personal growth).

Studies in child development tend to echo Christ's approach, and suggest that in the early stages of development children may be impeded in their growth by the absence of authoritarian control, and later in their development they may be impeded in their growth by the presence of authoritarian control. This means that if we, like Christ, intend for our children to grow, we ought not take Lucifer's planned approach of sustained authoritarian control, or his current plan of removal of all authoritarian control, but rather we should take Christ's approach of greater authoritarian control to begin with and tapering off as the child matures.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[canard78]

Did you really believe or just want to believe? I know a lot of kids who just play along with the idea because it's fun.

No, I really did. I may have 'wondered/speculated' by 9-10 but I was still fully bought into the fantasy at 9. I know because we moved houses just after my 9th birthday and remember genuine concern that my dad had someone cap the chimney (like an umbrella, smoke gets out, rain and bird stuff stays out) and asked how Father Christmas would fit in.

[canard78]

I don't know any eight year old that believes in Santa or the Tooth Fairy, not growing up and not with my kids and not now. There may be some somewhere, but unlikely to be many IMO.

Walden has kindly covered any 'CFR'. The intention of the conversation isn't the ethics of santa belief, but to understand whether there's a real decision happening.

Walden's reference presents an interesting scenario. If 8 is the age when children start to speculate or wonder and stretch the boundaries of their personal reality them baptism serves a purpose.

The sceptic would say we are defining their frame of reference as a baptised member. In essense, forcing a limited view by having them make a commitment to a God they have been taught to believe in.

As Elder Packer said, the skeptic can say what they like. http://www.lds.org/ensign/print/1983/01/the-candle-of-the-lord?lang=eng&clang=eng

I guess the other way I could consider it is to see baptism as a gift to my 8yo child. If it does give them a frame of reference and sense of commitment as they begin their journey of discovery. Maybe that's the way God intended it. But I don't think we can say the 8yo is genuinely independent decision, which given they're making a covenant with eternal consequences is still a challenging issue for me.

[Bob Crockett]

Fortunately, this thread is purely hypothetical, since most judges in most family courts in the United States seem to opine that church attendance is a good thing for children. Children aren't going to get there on their own; I'm not going to leave my 9 year old alone, and my 15 year old won't get there unless an adult in the household drives him. So, practically speaking, in nearly all faiths where a family is a regular church attender, the community expects that the children will be there with he parents, and there is nothing unethical or illegal about it.

The only ones making this argument seem to be atheists and agnostics, and they have their own compulsory education techniques, whether it be dragging their kids out to ball games (my kids don't always want to go to Lakers games with me), a community clean-up, a Lilith Fair, or whatever.

[Calm]

No, I really did. I may have 'wondered/speculated' by 9-10 but I was still fully bought into the fantasy at 9. I know because we moved houses just after my 9th birthday and remember genuine concern that my dad had someone cap the chimney (like an umbrella, smoke gets out, rain and bird stuff stays out) and asked how Father Christmas would fit in.

Perhaps it is a cultural thing.

[pogi]

I haven't read all of the posts yet, so I don't know if this has been mentioned,

Once a child starts believing that it is not that he did bad, but that he is bad, then you have bigger problems than not going to church. There are so many ways that parents shame their kids into going to church, it is simply wrong! You are doing your child much more harm than good if they are going out of shame.

[Calm]

I haven't read all of the posts yet, so I don't know if this has been mentioned,

Once a child starts believing that it is not that he did bad, but that he is bad, then you have bigger problems than not going to church. There are so many ways that parents shame their kids into going to church, it is simply wrong! You are doing your child much more harm than good if they are going out of shame.

There are few things as evil imo as teaching a child they are bad. It is a wound that only God can heal and in many cases I have seen the child is convinced even as an adult that s/he cannot accept that healing for the very reason they need that healing. Thankfully they will receive greater understanding in the next life if they cannot fully accept God's gift in this life.

[canard78]

Perhaps it is a cultural thing.

I'm guessing we're still talking about Santa and not getting baptised

[Calm]

I'm guessing we're still talking about Santa and not getting baptised

Yes.

[canard78]

Yes.

Indeed, sorry, I was just being facetious.

Ultimately, I love my kids. I love the spiritual gifts that being LDS has given me. Taking them to church is simply me wanting to share those spiritual gifts with them. I should worry less about their spiritual ability to fully appreciate the gifts at the age of 7, 8 or 9 and worry more about helping them independently embrace those gifts. My parents did as much for me.

Edited November 28, 2012 by canard78

[Calm]

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Having your child attend church is different than "making" them go.

When teenagers it is often both.

[Lightbearer]

I keep hearing and seeing this reoccurring trend in our church. Parents of teenagers who basically force their children to go to church. I believe honestly that the majority of parents of teenagers within our church make their kids go to church. Honestly I cant understand why? Our founder of this church, Joseph Smith, wasnt forced into certain beliefs when he was a teenager. In fact, he was raised with correct principles and then left to his own to find out the truth on his own. Why then should we not raise our children to be free also?

Who do you hear this from? The parents? The children? Maybe I was different but I was never "forced" to go to church or "brainwashed" (that is an Anti-Mormon term applied to all faithful LDS) I had a faith in the restored Gospel from a very early age (under 5 years old) when I attended church in a branch that met in a members home and included 13 members (which included my parents, my two sisters and myself) and at that early age I felt the spirit of God and recognized it. I also recognized the power of the priesthood and saw and experienced healings. While I did not totally understand the history of the church (I thought as a young kid that the gold plates were something you ate off of) even when I got in Primary when we moved to a Ward, I still understood reverence for God and sacred things. I added to these feelings knowledge and line upon line I comprehended the importance of the Church, the Prophet and the restoration of the Gospel. So I naturally grew into the knowledge of God and Christ not by force, but by love and honor, and duty. When I reached the age of accountability I chose to be baptized because that was what my father and mother had done and I wanted to follow them because I loved and respected and wanted to honor them. My father baptized me and I remember the love and peace of that day. I did not know every doctrine of the church or even every commandment. But I had faith, the faith of a child who trusts and loves a tender parent who believed their religion and wanted me to share in the joy and peace they had. I have never regretted that day and thanks be to God for it. I shudder to think if my parents did not teach me to believe the words of living prophets and to have faith in the Son of God. It would have been an offence against God and against me if my parents had said, go try these other churches out for yourself and see if you want to stay in the Church or not! Good God man, that would've been a disaster, I would have wondered if my parents loved me or not. My parents bore a fervent testimony not just in words but in their lives, by their fruits I could tell the Gospel was true. I did not have to get off to myself and search for a testimony, I like Nephi believed all the words of my father and mother. Only once did I ever tell my Dad that I did not want to go to church, it was a priesthood meeting when I was a deacon, and at that time preisthood meeting was held early in the morning (before the block program was instituted) and my Dad did not demand that I get up and go, instead he said: "Okay, but if the Lord comes today I will let Him know where you are... I then got out of bed, got dressed and never wanted to stay home again! Of course I had a trial of fire in the 8th grade when I had to attend a private Baptist school and was persecuted because I was a Mormon. I was told I was a devil worshipper and that I was following a false prophet... but by then I knew that was a damned lie of Satan. I resisted their attempts to make me deny what I knew was true. Around this time I along with my sister were sealed to my parents in the Salt Lake Temple and I thought that was the most glorious experience of my life up to that time. By the time I reached the age to serve a mission I wanted to go. In fact my Mother begged me to not go while my family dropped me off at the MTC... she said I did not have to go... but I told her I wanted to go to serve the Lord. During my Mission I was assailed by Anti-Mormons and religionists and Anti-Christs of all kinds trying to tear down my faith. But I had already seen and heard too much for such antics to have any effect on me. I taught many people, some were baptized and some were not, but through it all my faith remained and after my mission when I was no longer "controlled" by my parents I still faithfully attended church and lived the Gospel to the best of my ability and endured 21 years of life as a single LDS struggling to find an eternal companion. When I finally found her we were sealed in the Orlando Temple for all eternity and later when we adopted our son we had him sealed to us in that very Temple. I vowed that I would raise him up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. I baptized him last March at the age of 8 years old. I do not regret it, I do not want Satan to have a "fighting chance" of dragging him down to hell. I thank God that he can have the gift of the Holy Ghost to guide him into all truth so that he might raise up to be a mighty son of God, a royal generation, one who will follow me as I follow Christ. I would be a faithless idiot it I thought I needed to give him "agency" to choose the abominations of the world. He only has 10 years to prepare for his mission and having the Holy Ghost and the testimony and teachings of his father and mother is the only way to protect him from the enemy of all righteousness. That is not a long time and as his parent it is my right, my obligation, to teach him the truth as I understand it and help him any way I can to develop his faith and righteousness. I choose to follow this admonition of the Lord:

"And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands, when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents. For this shall be a law unto the inhabitants of Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized. And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands. And they shall also teach their children to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord." (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 68:25-28)

These are the commandments of God, not a "policy on men" and as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. This is not optional, if we are true and faithful to God we will keep His law. It is juvenile to think that parents are restricting their children's agency by raising them and teaching them the truth. In fact to do otherwise according to the above reference is a sin. Why would I pretend to be blind and ignorant of the truth on the pretex that he should have his agency? How can he really have agency if the truth is witheld from him and I demand that he must find his own answers. What good is a parent if not to teach their children the way of truth. If God took that attitude He would never reveal His will for fear it would hinder His children's agency?

[Senator]

I did not have to get off to myself and search for a testimony,

Are you saying, then, that you've never received one?

I like Nephi believed all the words of my father and mother.

Yet Nephi needed something more.

I would be a faithless idiot it I thought I needed to give him "agency" to choose the abominations of the world.

Careful now, you're beginning to sound like someone else in a bygone existence.

It is juvenile to think that parents are restricting their children's agency by raising them and teaching them the truth.

Lightbearer, I don't think anyone has argued against "raising our kids and teaching them the truth." The question at hand is in how much compulsion or forced should be wielded in the process.

How can he really have agency if the truth is witheld from him and I demand that he must find his own answers.

Not much.

But how can he really have agency if he is told the truth but resticted from verifying it? Again, hearken back to what we know of the discussions in the pre-existence.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Senator

[Rob Osborn]

Who do you hear this from? The parents? The children? Maybe I was different but I was never "forced" to go to church or "brainwashed" (that is an Anti-Mormon term applied to all faithful LDS) I had a faith in the restored Gospel from a very early age (under 5 years old) when I attended church in a branch that met in a members home and included 13 members (which included my parents, my two sisters and myself) and at that early age I felt the spirit of God and recognized it. I also recognized the power of the priesthood and saw and experienced healings. While I did not totally understand the history of the church (I thought as a young kid that the gold plates were something you ate off of) even when I got in Primary when we moved to a Ward, I still understood reverence for God and sacred things. I added to these feelings knowledge and line upon line I comprehended the importance of the Church, the Prophet and the restoration of the Gospel. So I naturally grew into the knowledge of God and Christ not by force, but by love and honor, and duty. When I reached the age of accountability I chose to be baptized because that was what my father and mother had done and I wanted to follow them because I loved and respected and wanted to honor them. My father baptized me and I remember the love and peace of that day. I did not know every doctrine of the church or even every commandment. But I had faith, the faith of a child who trusts and loves a tender parent who believed their religion and wanted me to share in the joy and peace they had. I have never regretted that day and thanks be to God for it. I shudder to think if my parents did not teach me to believe the words of living prophets and to have faith in the Son of God. It would have been an offence against God and against me if my parents had said, go try these other churches out for yourself and see if you want to stay in the Church or not! Good God man, that would've been a disaster, I would have wondered if my parents loved me or not. My parents bore a fervent testimony not just in words but in their lives, by their fruits I could tell the Gospel was true. I did not have to get off to myself and search for a testimony, I like Nephi believed all the words of my father and mother. Only once did I ever tell my Dad that I did not want to go to church, it was a priesthood meeting when I was a deacon, and at that time preisthood meeting was held early in the morning (before the block program was instituted) and my Dad did not demand that I get up and go, instead he said: "Okay, but if the Lord comes today I will let Him know where you are... I then got out of bed, got dressed and never wanted to stay home again! Of course I had a trial of fire in the 8th grade when I had to attend a private Baptist school and was persecuted because I was a Mormon. I was told I was a devil worshipper and that I was following a false prophet... but by then I knew that was a damned lie of Satan. I resisted their attempts to make me deny what I knew was true. Around this time I along with my sister were sealed to my parents in the Salt Lake Temple and I thought that was the most glorious experience of my life up to that time. By the time I reached the age to serve a mission I wanted to go. In fact my Mother begged me to not go while my family dropped me off at the MTC... she said I did not have to go... but I told her I wanted to go to serve the Lord. During my Mission I was assailed by Anti-Mormons and religionists and Anti-Christs of all kinds trying to tear down my faith. But I had already seen and heard too much for such antics to have any effect on me. I taught many people, some were baptized and some were not, but through it all my faith remained and after my mission when I was no longer "controlled" by my parents I still faithfully attended church and lived the Gospel to the best of my ability and endured 21 years of life as a single LDS struggling to find an eternal companion. When I finally found her we were sealed in the Orlando Temple for all eternity and later when we adopted our son we had him sealed to us in that very Temple. I vowed that I would raise him up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. I baptized him last March at the age of 8 years old. I do not regret it, I do not want Satan to have a "fighting chance" of dragging him down to hell. I thank God that he can have the gift of the Holy Ghost to guide him into all truth so that he might raise up to be a mighty son of God, a royal generation, one who will follow me as I follow Christ. I would be a faithless idiot it I thought I needed to give him "agency" to choose the abominations of the world. He only has 10 years to prepare for his mission and having the Holy Ghost and the testimony and teachings of his father and mother is the only way to protect him from the enemy of all righteousness. That is not a long time and as his parent it is my right, my obligation, to teach him the truth as I understand it and help him any way I can to develop his faith and righteousness. I choose to follow this admonition of the Lord:

These are the commandments of God, not a "policy on men" and as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. This is not optional, if we are true and faithful to God we will keep His law. It is juvenile to think that parents are restricting their children's agency by raising them and teaching them the truth. In fact to do otherwise according to the above reference is a sin. Why would I pretend to be blind and ignorant of the truth on the pretex that he should have his agency? How can he really have agency if the truth is witheld from him and I demand that he must find his own answers. What good is a parent if not to teach their children the way of truth. If God took that attitude He would never reveal His will for fear it would hinder His children's agency?

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding. When I was a teenager it was expected of us to go to church, serve a mission, etc. There was pressure placed upon us as if it replaced choice. Of course as a teenager I saw the hypocrisy and pride in the church which partially had an impact on me. I ended up leaving the church for about 10 years because I was in rebellion and because I was tired of these expectations that seemed to ake away my choice. It took a few years before I had a miraculous thing that happened to me. I ended up at an alternative school where we could literally govern ourselves- we could either choose to be at school or choose not to be. No parents would be called, we could do as we pleased. What I found out was that when you remove compulsion you rise to a new level of freedom. It amazed me at just how effective the school was at tting kids to come to school and stay their to learn all on their own free will. Kids that had truency issues at normal high school now were like honor students. It taught me that when children reach a certain age you really should let them govern themselves and the choices they want to make. If parents love and respect them and teach them correct principles they should never depart from them. We dont give our children enough credit on what they are capable of on their own if we but just give them some freedom.

[Lightbearer]

I do not why I bother posting here, all I get is mockery, but for the record yes Senator I do have a testimony and I realize that neither you or Rob have a clue about what I am talking about. So next time I will not bother to share my own personal sacred experiences. Just believe whatever you want and just let you kids do whatever they want and I will teach my family the way I see fit. Oh and there should not be any need for compulsion or force if a child is raised correctly in love and with the spirit.

[Pahoran]

I keep hearing and seeing this reoccurring trend in our church. Parents of teenagers who basically force their children to go to church. I believe honestly that the majority of parents of teenagers within our church make their kids go to church. Honestly I cant understand why? Our founder of this church, Joseph Smith, wasnt forced into certain beliefs when he was a teenager. In fact, he was raised with correct principles and then left to his own to find out the truth on his own. Why then should we not raise our children to be free also?

I wonder just how objective and/or measurable your observation is? Is everyone who encourages their children to attend Church more than you a control freak intent on "brainwashing" their children? And what, if anything, does "brainwashing" even mean? What is "forced obedience?" Do you "force" your children to attend school, brush their teeth, wash their hands before eating?

Since we are sharing anecdotes: I have observed that most of the parents I hear insisting that children should not be "forced" (i.e. affirmatively taught) to attend Church are either "forcing" their children to behave according to societal expectations in other areas of their lives, in which case they are being hypocrites, or else they are not, in which case they are unfit parents.

Regards,

Pahoran

[pogi]

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding. When I was a teenager it was expected of us to go to church, serve a mission, etc. There was pressure placed upon us as if it replaced choice. Of course as a teenager I saw the hypocrisy and pride in the church which partially had an impact on me. I ended up leaving the church for about 10 years because I was in rebellion and because I was tired of these expectations that seemed to ake away my choice. It took a few years before I had a miraculous thing that happened to me. I ended up at an alternative school where we could literally govern ourselves- we could either choose to be at school or choose not to be. No parents would be called, we could do as we pleased. What I found out was that when you remove compulsion you rise to a new level of freedom. It amazed me at just how effective the school was at tting kids to come to school and stay their to learn all on their own free will. Kids that had truency issues at normal high school now were like honor students. It taught me that when children reach a certain age you really should let them govern themselves and the choices they want to make. If parents love and respect them and teach them correct principles they should never depart from them. We dont give our children enough credit on what they are capable of on their own if we but just give them some freedom.

I hear what you are saying. There are cultural expectations to where children are often over-pressured (helicopter parenting). This is true in almost any culture. I believe that there are many members who are only members due to their cultural upbringing with no real testimony. However, they will eventually have to be tested through the refiner's fire. I don't think that Mormon's brain wash, it is more of a cultural conditioning that happens in every culture. I agree with you that there are parents who WAY over do it.

There is a fine line between protecting and having healthy expectations for your children vs. writing the story of your children's faith for them. They need some wiggle room and trust in order to thrive.

I think that this scripture explains well the role of influence that a parent should have on their children. D&C 121:

41 No ^apower or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the ^bpriesthood, only by ^cpersuasion, by ^dlong-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By ^akindness, and pure ^bknowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the ^csoul without ^dhypocrisy, and without ^eguile—

43 ^aReproving betimes with ^bsharpness, when ^cmoved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of^dlove toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of ^adeath.