Forced Obedience And The Brainwashing Of Our Children

[Rob Osborn]

I hear what you are saying. There are cultural expectations to where children are often over-pressured (helicopter parenting). This is true in almost any culture. I believe that there are many members who are only members due to their cultural upbringing with no real testimony. However, they will eventually have to be tested through the refiner's fire. I don't think that Mormon's brain wash, it is more of a cultural conditioning that happens in every culture. I agree with you that there are parents who WAY over do it.

There is a fine line between protecting and having healthy expectations for your children vs. writing the story of your children's faith for them. They need some wiggle room and trust in order to thrive.

I think that this scripture explains well the role of influence that a parent should have on their children. D&C 121:

41 No ^apower or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the ^bpriesthood, only by ^cpersuasion, by ^dlong-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By ^akindness, and pure ^bknowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the ^csoul without ^dhypocrisy, and without ^eguile—

43 ^aReproving betimes with ^bsharpness, when ^cmoved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of^dlove toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of ^adeath.

I agree. Parents do want what is best for their children. I can understand also that parents can way overdue it and that many often do and preach that way to others as if it is the only option. I honestly believe that we as parents fall into the trap of wanting our children to be the standard- that when we have all our children by our side at church we can look out into the congregation and pride ourselves in our own vanity of how we are viewed by our peers. Why do parents make their children go to church? Is it truly for their salvation and welfare? Are they so afraid their children might choose a different religion or not serve on a mission, or dare I say- marry outside the church and be damned for all eternity?

[Nathair/|\]

OOOO OOOOO

Can we debate the "reality" of Santa Claus now?

He certainly seems to be real in the retail industry! Not including the arguable proposition that he was just re-elected president.

I believe that Santa is An Dagda Mor in Christian clothes,and when we fill our kids stockings, we are acting as his priests.

[Sleeper Cell]

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding. When I was a teenager it was expected of us to go to church, serve a mission, etc. There was pressure placed upon us as if it replaced choice. Of course as a teenager I saw the hypocrisy and pride in the church which partially had an impact on me. I ended up leaving the church for about 10 years because I was in rebellion and because I was tired of these expectations that seemed to ake away my choice. It took a few years before I had a miraculous thing that happened to me. I ended up at an alternative school where we could literally govern ourselves- we could either choose to be at school or choose not to be. No parents would be called, we could do as we pleased. What I found out was that when you remove compulsion you rise to a new level of freedom. It amazed me at just how effective the school was at tting kids to come to school and stay their to learn all on their own free will. Kids that had truency issues at normal high school now were like honor students. It taught me that when children reach a certain age you really should let them govern themselves and the choices they want to make. If parents love and respect them and teach them correct principles they should never depart from them. We dont give our children enough credit on what they are capable of on their own if we but just give them some freedom.

[emphasis added]

Are teenage children who are not sufficiently mature to be held to adult responsibilities (such as paying their own living expenses) or sufficiently mature to face adult consequences for their bad decisions, nevertheless, sufficiently mature to fully govern themselves?

Certainly, as children become older, they should generally be given more freedom. How much freedom varies with each individual child. It depends partly on the individual’s level of maturity. Part of maturity is realizing that as long as you are living with your family at home, you have some obligations to your family. While I agree that being forced (or high pressured) into participating in religious rituals or serving a mission against one‘s will is a violation of agency, sitting quietly through a church meeting is not the same thing as worship. It is hardly unreasonable for parents to require their children to spend three (3) hours a week attending church with their family or doing something else they do not want to do.

If the “oppressed teen” can not accept this “burden” as an obligation he owes to his family, let him think of it as “rent.” When teenagers finally move out (i.e., reach the point where they are able to “govern themselves and the choices, they will want to make”) they will probably find that paying rent in the real world requires them to spends considerably more than 3 hours a week doing things they don’t particularly like.

And if the teenager is bored at church or simply does not believe in God? Well, part of growing up is learning that you sometimes have to do boring things and even politely listen to people express beliefs with which you strongly disagree.

Whether it is wise for a parent to require a particular child to attend church is a different question. I don’t believe there is a “one size fits all” answer. However, prior to WW II, most teenagers were given far less freedom and far greater demands were imposed on their time (e.g., being required to work to help support their families). The result? “The Greatest Generation.” After WW II, this changed. The result? The “Me Generation.”

[KevinG]

In my experience the dichotomy between children who are struggling with their testimony and those who are strong adherents to the Gospel of Christ once they are on their own is not:

Parents who forced children to attend services vs. parents who allowed their children to choose to attend or not.

It is however-

Parents who made their children attend because they would be embarrassed if the family didn't appear perfect vs. parents who encouraged children to attend because they knew it would be a blessing in their lives.

In fact many parenting practices that appear the same outwardly take on a whole new meaning when the inward motives are loving and generous. Hence D&C 121 (one of my favorite and most challenging to obey scriptures).

[KevinG]

Just so I'm clear:

Because I love you is greater than because I told you so.

Because I care about you is greater than because you are embarrassing me.

Because I want you to learn for yourself is greater than because we've always done it this way.

(you get my drift)

[juliann]

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding. When I was a teenager it was expected of us to go to church, serve a mission, etc. There was pressure placed upon us as if it replaced choice. Of course as a teenager I saw the hypocrisy and pride in the church which partially had an impact on me. I ended up leaving the church for about 10 years because I was in rebellion and because I was tired of these expectations that seemed to ake away my choice. It took a few years before I had a miraculous thing that happened to me. I ended up at an alternative school where we could literally govern ourselves- we could either choose to be at school or choose not to be. No parents would be called, we could do as we pleased. What I found out was that when you remove compulsion you rise to a new level of freedom. It amazed me at just how effective the school was at tting kids to come to school and stay their to learn all on their own free will. Kids that had truency issues at normal high school now were like honor students. It taught me that when children reach a certain age you really should let them govern themselves and the choices they want to make. If parents love and respect them and teach them correct principles they should never depart from them. We dont give our children enough credit on what they are capable of on their own if we but just give them some freedom.

Then what you are really arguing over is the definition correct principles (unless you are associating lack of love and respect to those who do not agree with your definition). Effective teaching methods cannot be measured through anecdotes...and probably can't be measured much at all given the continual revising of them. What may work for troubled teens may have little relevance to others...and vice versa. So what we are left with is a debate regarding church attendance being a correct principle at which point we are left with mere opinion about other people's priorities. We could have the same debate over compulsory music lessons, school attendance, household chores or a myriad of other things.

[Rob Osborn]

Then what you are really arguing over is the definition correct principles (unless you are associating lack of love and respect to those who do not agree with your definition). Effective teaching methods cannot be measured through anecdotes...and probably can't be measured much at all given the continual revising of them. What may work for troubled teens may have little relevance to others...and vice versa. So what we are left with is a debate regarding church attendance being a correct principle at which point we are left with mere opinion about other people's priorities. We could have the same debate over compulsory music lessons, school attendance, household chores or a myriad of other things.

except for the fact that religious views, beliefs, and opinions regarding faith cannot be forcefed to children when they get old enough to seriously question things on their own. Going to school, doing chores, etc. are different matters altogether that do not deal with faith.

[Erin15]

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding. When I was a teenager it was expected of us to go to church, serve a mission, etc. There was pressure placed upon us as if it replaced choice. Of course as a teenager I saw the hypocrisy and pride in the church which partially had an impact on me. I ended up leaving the church for about 10 years because I was in rebellion and because I was tired of these expectations that seemed to ake away my choice.

I want to present to you a couple of possibilities that you may have not considered, but I want you to understand that I am not judging you, and I do not want you to take offence. I merely want to broaden your horizons on this subject.

It is important that you be open enough to consider two things:

1) That it is possible that you would have fallen away regardless of what your parents did. We all learn in different ways and some people have to leave the path and find it again as part of their natrual growth and progression. Your parents may have raised you with a much lighter touch and you still might have fallen away.

2) That many people go through the exact same situation you went through, but never fell away.

I think these two points are very important to consider, because you keep posting about what was done to you, when I want you to reconsider these events in the light of the decisions you made with your own agency.

I hope that you can consider these points without taking offence, because none is intended.

Edited December 9, 2012 by Erin15

[pogi]

except for the fact that religious views, beliefs, and opinions regarding faith cannot be forcefed to children when they get old enough to seriously question things on their own. Going to school, doing chores, etc. are different matters altogether that do not deal with faith.

Children start believing because their parents teach them to, as you say. This is true wether they teach them to believe in God, or that there is no God, or in Santa Clause. All children grow up and question things. Some like what they were taught, others don't. No brain washing about it. The fact is that children tend to believe whatever you tell them. If you were to tell your child that you do not believe in God, they are likely to believe that themselves. How is that any different?

[juliann]

except for the fact that religious views, beliefs, and opinions regarding faith cannot be forcefed to children when they get old enough to seriously question things on their own. Going to school, doing chores, etc. are different matters altogether that do not deal with faith.

You aren't making sense. Have you never seen a child question the need to go to school? I don't know why faith makes a difference. It takes a similar amount of faith for an uncooperative child to believe the need for school. Some never develop that faith as is evident by a large drop out rate. It is exactly the same thing. You just don't happen to value church.

[Rob Osborn]

I want to present to you a couple of possibilities that you may have not considered, but I want you to understand that I am not judging you, and I do not want you to take offence. I merely want to broaden your horizons on this subject.

It is important that you be open enough to consider two things:

1) That it is possible that you would have fallen away regardless of what your parents did. We all learn in different ways and some people have to leave the path and find it again as part of their natrual growth and progression. Your parents may have raised you with a much lighter touch and you still might have fallen away.

2) That many people go through the exact same situation you went through, but never fell away.

I think these two points are very important to consider, because you keep posting about what was done to you, when I want you to reconsider these events in the light of the decisions you made with your own agency.

I hope that you can consider these points without taking offence, because none is intended.

My time as a youth involved in the church was not exactly a great positive expwrience overall. My fondest memories as a youth involved in church activities were not gospel related. I had good memories with scouts, some mutual activities, etc. My greatest spiritual monents as a youth were those few times of priesthood advancemwnt and the few times that I was ablw to freely exercise. that power.

That said, my worst memories were usualky on Sundays from pushy leaders and adults who felt it was more important to force their opinuobs down the youths throats. I remember once when we as youth were instructed to each bare our testimobies on why we wanted to serve missions. At that time I hadn't even decided on serving a mission. It was certainly a decision I wanted to make between just me and the Lord. There was so much pressure put on us however to go on a mission that it was like being forced or coerced to serve wirh the guilt trip placed forever over our heads. I remember that day vicidly. It was a bad judgment call by the leaders who were not guided by the spurit in my humble opinuon.

Its hard to say "what if". I do know though that the pressure to make them believe what we want them to us still alive and well. There are much more effective ways to teach and influwnce our youth, we just have to have more fairh in them and create more opportunities where they can use their own free will.

[Maidservant]

I just had a lot of random thoughts. So not even sure if I'm replying directly to anything.

I can only discuss my experience as a teenager and my experiences with my children and teenagers.

I was not forced to attend church, but I have no idea what would have happened had I not had my own personal desire to participate. Sundays were my favorite days. I'm not saying everything was full of love and light in our ward (as a Sunday School class, we managed to make more than one teacher cry and/or beg to be released) nor full of love and light in our family, but me, as myself, I had a mind turned to religious and spiritual matters and so this suited me. I always enjoyed Young Women's activities except for the sports, which I did feel pressured to participate in and played basketball quite a bit, hating every minute of it. I did take a stand on softball, though . I know that with some of my younger brothers and sisters, they were not actually forced to go, although I'm sure the disappointment in their choices from our parents and family was palpable to them. But, really, I think this was a learning curve for my parents. Their older children (of which I was one) did all the bits, down the line, and seemd to take to Mormonism like water. When they began to have children with different ideas and struggles, I think it was a bit disconcerting and they had to learn how to realize that, hey, every one figures out their own life, and now I think relations between us all are a lot better (we are all adults now) even though we all have different relationships to the gospel and the church (speaking of my parents and the seven of their kids). I should also mention that my father was an example to me of someone who hated Mormonism (my mom remarried to my stepfather and we went to church every week) and he would have loved to share his viewpoint with me (he was a very loving man, but just had deep problems with the church based on his own experiences), so I had that example to follow if I wanted, but it never occurred to me I don't think. I am simply a person who every thing is about God to me, everything. My ability to be completely atheist is nil, although my ideas about the nature of God change. I honestly think I "came" this way--NOT necessarily a byproduct of "nurture".

With my children, I am the one who stays home from Sunday School and Relief Society (I attend Sacrament Meeting). I also attend Primary because I am the piano player there, and I LOVE this, I much prefer this childlike teaching than being in a Gospel Doctrine class. I even had an experience with my 12 year old son recently. I was having a tough day, and my son, with a very understanding tone said, "Mom, you don't HAVE to be Mormon if you don't want to. But I'm still going to be!" Ha ha. So while it is impossible to predict what he future challenges will be, it is very clear to me that he has already made his own decisions about his gospel participation for the present anyway, and I think it would be an insult to him and my other children to assume that they are being forced because no one of that age could possibly want to participate in Mormonism of their own mind? Five out of six of my children are examples to ME. They handle their quorum and class duties, they read scriptures daily, etc. I don't really think they got this from me (I am a single mom, so I can't speak on their father's influence at this point). I do have one son who comes up with wierd questions about the doctrine or history of the Church and I think he has started to get a little disillusionment bug, which I think is fine, because I know all people have to wrestle with this stuff and I'm actually glad he's starting now. BUT, again, he doesn't need any prodding to do his duties and to participate as a human being, a son, a priest--he makes these choices on his own.

My youngest son, who is 7 presently, is a different story. I honestly have been raising him differently, ha ha, and I sometimes say I am raising a little heathen. I haven't taken the time to teach him in childhood gospel things like I used to do with the olders (there is a 5 year gap between baby and his next older brother). However, lately we have been reading preach my gospel and Book of Mormon together and now he is the age to finally absorb the words, so we will see. He also has social challenges that have made it difficult for him to even realize what is going on in Primary. Anyway, bottom line is, he hates church and when he was 3 and 4 he literally screamed bloody murder to be taken to the Primary room. So I haven't actually taken him to church a lot. He comes home with me a lot after Sacrament Meeting, but like someone mentioned, he is not permitted to use that as an opportunity to catch up on his latest tv shows. For my son, I know that it is not about the gospel, because he doesn't understand that yet. For him, it is his need to have his own choice and control about what kind of social situation he is in, and to not feel over whelmed and trapped into something he can't handle. I respect that and I NEVER want him to feel that way, because that has been a major experience of my life too, and I know it is hell. But there have been times, too, when I have just told him, "Our family goes to church. You are part of our family. You need to come with us. It's what we do." So I am sure he experienced that as force, but I'm not sure what else I could have done, especially at his age.

I don't force my children (I think), but I do raise my children by strong expectations. And that is exactly how I phrase things, "I expect you to . . . [fill in the blank]." For the teenagers, there is very little I tell them what to do, nor would they listen. But it just depends on the entire situation.

One thing I do probably get close to forcing on is things like family prayer and scripture study. I require that my children participate. Again, the olders this is never a problem, never came up. With the 7 year old, he in the past or at times has run away down the hall and hides under the bed, and then I go and get him and sit him on my lap and he at times has physically struggled to leave. This doesn't happen all the time, but it has. Again, it has nothing to do with the gospel content, but with his idea that he would rather play and not have to sit still. I am sure I could learn a better way to handle it, but my thinking on why I cannot permit him to leave is that I cannot permit him to leave the family circle. I cannot permit him to think that he is outside the family. I cannot permit myself to act as if his presence isn't essential. I expect him to know that he is part of us, and he has duties to us, and we cannot BEGIN to have a family prayer is he is NOT IN THE CIRCLE, because the family is not complete without him. He is INDISPENSIBLE.

I have no idea what I would do if a child of mine in their teenage years said to me, "I don't want to go to church and/or I don't really believe," because it hasn't happened yet. But I'd like to think I would assess the entire situation of where they were coming from before deciding what my actions in the situation would be.

I do have a son who has sometimes implied a reluctance to go on a mission. But I think this is more his fear of the mission experience than any testimony issues. I do present a strong expectation to him that he will serve a mission, and this is exactly how I express it to him: "You will regret it if you don't. You will be 40 years old, the realization that you should have gone on a mission will hit you. And then you will not be able to go back and fix that. So realize it now instead of when you are 40." And I remind them that my father who now hates Mormonism even went on a mission to Japan (lost his testimony while there), but it still remained the high light of his life in terms of loving the people and learning Japanese culture. This son is now 18 and is actively preparing for a mission (still in school), so whatever reluctance he may have had does not seem to be with him now. But if one of my sons out and out said, "I will not go," I think it would be sad, hard time and yes he would feel my disappointment, but we would get over it and go forward.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Maidservant

[Nathair/|\]

I just had a lot of random thoughts. So not even sure if I'm replying directly to anything.

I can only discuss my experience as a teenager and my experiences with my children and teenagers.

I was not forced to attend church, but I have no idea what would have happened had I not had my own personal desire to participate. Sundays were my favorite days. I'm not saying everything was full of love and light in our ward (as a Sunday School class, we managed to make more than one teacher cry and/or beg to be released) nor full of love and light in our family, but me, as myself, I had a mind turned to religious and spiritual matters and so this suited me. I always enjoyed Young Women's activities except for the sports, which I did feel pressured to participate in and played basketball quite a bit, hating every minute of it. I did take a stand on softball, though . I know that with some of my younger brothers and sisters, they were not actually forced to go, although I'm sure the disappointment in their choices from our parents and family was palpable to them. But, really, I think this was a learning curve for my parents. Their older children (of which I was one) did all the bits, down the line, and seemd to take to Mormonism like water. When they began to have children with different ideas and struggles, I think it was a bit disconcerting and they had to learn how to realize that, hey, every one figures out their own life, and now I think relations between us all are a lot better (we are all adults now) even though we all have different relationships to the gospel and the church (speaking of my parents and the seven of their kids). I should also mention that my father was an example to me of someone who hated Mormonism (my mom remarried to my stepfather and we went to church every week) and he would have loved to share his viewpoint with me (he was a very loving man, but just had deep problems with the church based on his own experiences), so I had that example to follow if I wanted, but it never occurred to me I don't think. I am simply a person who every thing is about God to me, everything. My ability to be completely atheist is nil, although my ideas about the nature of God change. I honestly think I "came" this way--NOT necessarily a byproduct of "nurture".

With my children, I am the one who stays home from Sunday School and Relief Society (I attend Sacrament Meeting). I also attend Primary because I am the piano player there, and I LOVE this, I much prefer this childlike teaching than being in a Gospel Doctrine class. I even had an experience with my 12 year old son recently. I was having a tough day, and my son, with a very understanding tone said, "Mom, you don't HAVE to be Mormon if you don't want to. But I'm still going to be!" Ha ha. So while it is impossible to predict what he future challenges will be, it is very clear to me that he has already made his own decisions about his gospel participation for the present anyway, and I think it would be an insult to him and my other children to assume that they are being forced because no one of that age could possibly want to participate in Mormonism of their own mind? Five out of six of my children are examples to ME. They handle their quorum and class duties, they read scriptures daily, etc. I don't really think they got this from me (I am a single mom, so I can't speak on their father's influence at this point). I do have one son who comes up with wierd questions about the doctrine or history of the Church and I think he has started to get a little disillusionment bug, which I think is fine, because I know all people have to wrestle with this stuff and I'm actually glad he's starting now. BUT, again, he doesn't need any prodding to do his duties and to participate as a human being, a son, a priest--he makes these choices on his own.

My youngest son, who is 7 presently, is a different story. I honestly have been raising him differently, ha ha, and I sometimes say I am raising a little heathen. I haven't taken the time to teach him in childhood gospel things like I used to do with the olders (there is a 5 year gap between baby and his next older brother). However, lately we have been reading preach my gospel and Book of Mormon together and now he is the age to finally absorb the words, so we will see. He also has social challenges that have made it difficult for him to even realize what is going on in Primary. Anyway, bottom line is, he hates church and when he was 3 and 4 he literally screamed bloody murder to be taken to the Primary room. So I haven't actually taken him to church a lot. He comes home with me a lot after Sacrament Meeting, but like someone mentioned, he is not permitted to use that as an opportunity to catch up on his latest tv shows. For my son, I know that it is not about the gospel, because he doesn't understand that yet. For him, it is his need to have his own choice and control about what kind of social situation he is in, and to not feel over whelmed and trapped into something he can't handle. I respect that and I NEVER want him to feel that way, because that has been a major experience of my life too, and I know it is hell. But there have been times, too, when I have just told him, "Our family goes to church. You are part of our family. You need to come with us. It's what we do." So I am sure he experienced that as force, but I'm not sure what else I could have done, especially at his age.

I don't force my children (I think), but I do raise my children by strong expectations. And that is exactly how I phrase things, "I expect you to . . . [fill in the blank]." For the teenagers, there is very little I tell them what to do, nor would they listen. But it just depends on the entire situation.

One thing I do probably get close to forcing on is things like family prayer and scripture study. I require that my children participate. Again, the olders this is never a problem, never came up. With the 7 year old, he in the past or at times has run away down the hall and hides under the bed, and then I go and get him and sit him on my lap and he at times has physically struggled to leave. This doesn't happen all the time, but it has. Again, it has nothing to do with the gospel content, but with his idea that he would rather play and not have to sit still. I am sure I could learn a better way to handle it, but my thinking on why I cannot permit him to leave is that I cannot permit him to leave the family circle. I cannot permit him to think that he is outside the family. I cannot permit myself to act as if his presence isn't essential. I expect him to know that he is part of us, and he has duties to us, and we cannot BEGIN to have a family prayer is he is NOT IN THE CIRCLE, because the family is not complete without him. He is INDISPENSIBLE.

I have no idea what I would do if a child of mine in their teenage years said to me, "I don't want to go to church and/or I don't really believe," because it hasn't happened yet. But I'd like to think I would assess the entire situation of where they were coming from before deciding what my actions in the situation would be.

I do have a son who has sometimes implied a reluctance to go on a mission. But I think this is more his fear of the mission experience than any testimony issues. I do present a strong expectation to him that he will serve a mission, and this is exactly how I express it to him: "You will regret it if you don't. You will be 40 years old, the realization that you should have gone on a mission will hit you. And then you will not be able to go back and fix that. So realize it now instead of when you are 40." And I remind them that my father who now hates Mormonism even went on a mission to Japan (lost his testimony while there), but it still remained the high light of his life in terms of loving the people and learning Japanese culture. This son is now 18 and is actively preparing for a mission (still in school), so whatever reluctance he may have had does not seem to be with him now. But if one of my sons out and out said, "I will not go," I think it would be sad, hard time and yes he would feel my disappointment, but we would get over it and go forward.

I think I understand how your seven-year old feels. Being packed in a chapel with 100 other people who would just as soon not have to be aware of my existence can be very stressful. I'd like to hide under the bed or run screaming down the hall too.

[caudicus]

Forcing your children to do anything is ridiculous and counterproductive, in this day and age. If you can't convince them through rational dialogue, you are already kind of a failure, as a parent. If you find yourself getting angry and making ultimatums, it means you simply weren't smart enough to confront the issue like a mature, rational human being, in the first place. Kids respond much better when you treat them like you would treat any other adult. It also molds their own self-image in the appropriate direction.

I was not a believer at a young age. I was still brought to church. I was convinced that it was in my best interest for a number of reasons... social aspect, staying out of trouble, being surrounded by (somewhat) responsible people who would be a positive influence, etc. There were times when it felt forced, sure, but I simply devised a system with my fellow non-believers to show up at events briefly, and then go do our own thing.

As to brainwashing... it happens everywhere. Did they teach you that the Russians won WW2 in school? about the sacrifices made at Kursk? No. We have a very one-sided spin in our education system. WMD's in Iraq? They weren't selling that one to just the kiddies, either. George Washington and the cherry tree? Myth. Turkeys are the original bird of Thanksgiving? Christmas is actually a Christian holiday? Myths.

Despite the fact that we fail miserably in a lot of quality of life statistics, many still consider the USA the best place to live. Well.. it is, if you have money. Most people don't have that luxury. Brainwashing happens everywhere. It is called culture and it is the reason you should be cynical of people who claim to have found the truth.

How does the saying go? Trust those who seek truth but not those who claim to have found it?

If you teach your kids how to think, learn to present several sides of each subject, then you, whether you inadvertently brainwash them or not, at least you are doing your best. If you belligerently insist that the world is only a thousands of years old and not billions, you might have a problem. I don't know, though... are there Mormons that would be brave enough to teach their children that there is little to no evidence that the Israelites were enslaved in Egypt, as an entire race?

[volgadon]

Forcing your children to do anything is ridiculous and counterproductive, in this day and age. If you can't convince them through rational dialogue, you are already kind of a failure, as a parent. If you find yourself getting angry and making ultimatums, it means you simply weren't smart enough to confront the issue like a mature, rational human being, in the first place. Kids respond much better when you treat them like you would treat any other adult. It also molds their own self-image in the appropriate direction.

[volgadon]

are there Mormons that would be brave enough to teach their children that there is little to no evidence that the Israelites were enslaved in Egypt, as an entire race?

My parents.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Forcing your children to do anything is ridiculous and counterproductive, in this day and age. If you can't convince them through rational dialogue, you are already kind of a failure, as a parent.

I agree broadly, though in addition to 'rational dialogue', there's the very effective tool of personal experience. Children who've repeatedly experienced the practical realities of the restored gospel for themselves will overwhelmingly persist with what has so richly blessed their lives and the lives of those around them, though one can always find a few here and there who don't really care for things like prophecy, revelation, visions, healings, the minstering of angels, clear answers to prayers, love, peace, joy, etc.

[Calm]

Forcing your children to do anything is ridiculous and counterproductive, in this day and age. If you can't convince them through rational dialogue, you are already kind of a failure, as a parent

Because five year olds are so rational, of course they will be convinced.

[bluebell]

Forcing your children to do anything is ridiculous and counterproductive, in this day and age. If you can't convince them through rational dialogue, you are already kind of a failure, as a parent.

How many kids do you have? (Sincere question)

[Sleeper Cell]

Forcing your children to do anything is ridiculous and counterproductive, in this day and age. If you can't convince them through rational dialogue, you are already kind of a failure, as a parent.

Suppose the child makes irrational decisions despite the rational dialogue, or simply refuses to engage in rational dialogue in the first place?

If you find yourself getting angry and making ultimatums, it means you simply weren't smart enough to confront the issue like a mature, rational human being, in the first place. Kids respond much better when you treat them like you would treat any other adult. It also molds their own self-image in the appropriate direction.

“Any other adult?“ Kids are not adults. That is why we call them ”kids.” If your really believe that parents should treat their kids like any other adult, perhaps they should start by charging them room and board.

I was not a believer at a young age. I was still brought to church. I was convinced that it was in my best interest for a number of reasons... social aspect, staying out of trouble, being surrounded by (somewhat) responsible people who would be a positive influence, etc. There were times when it felt forced, sure, but I simply devised a system with my fellow non-believers to show up at events briefly, and then go do our own thing.

As to brainwashing... it happens everywhere. Did they teach you that the Russians won WW2 in school? about the sacrifices made at Kursk? No. We have a very one-sided spin in our education system. WMD's in Iraq? They weren't selling that one to just the kiddies, either. George Washington and the cherry tree? Myth. Turkeys are the original bird of Thanksgiving? Christmas is actually a Christian holiday? Myths.

Despite the fact that we fail miserably in a lot of quality of life statistics, many still consider the USA the best place to live. Well.. it is, if you have money. Most people don't have that luxury. Brainwashing happens everywhere. It is called culture and it is the reason you should be cynical of people who claim to have found the truth.

How does the saying go? Trust those who seek truth but not those who claim to have found it?

You seem to be asserting quite a number of truth claims for someone who says that one shouldn't trust those who claim to have found truth.

I

[Senator]

[Deleted]

Edited December 13, 2012 by Senator

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

How many kids do you have? (Sincere question)

I am sure he has about 5. I mean, I can tell he is speaking from personal experiance on the matter.

Doesnt he believe the earth is over populated?