Sacrament Meeting Concerns

[Garden Girl]

Hello Antoni...

My personal experience: I had been inactive for over 30 years... the last time I had attended Sacrament Mtg there were what we called "quiet rooms" at one side of the chapel... glassed in rooms with a speaker that parents could take children while still watching/listening to the service.

Fast forward 30 years... new emphasis has been placed on families attending together and sitting together (no more a row of teenagers at the back of the chapel whispering and twittering, and no more quiet rooms). So imagine my surprise upon reactivating to attend my first Sac Mtg at the "noise level" because even minor noise was amplified to me compared to what I was used to... so ther next meeting I just sat closer to the front (3rd row, aisle seat has now been "my" seat for 17 years) and I've become accustomed to the noise... although it is nothing like you describe and quite reverent most of the time. We don't have that many young children and parents seem to be more willing to take them out if they don't quiet down in a few minutes.

Shortly after I started attending, the bishop spoke to the congregation about reverence, and in Rel Soc we were reminded of the importance of reverence. And about once per year we have talks on the importance of reverence. It has made a huge difference... I say you should have a brief chat with your bishop. But above all, please do not stop attending... you are where you are supposed to be. If you absolutely can't come to terms with this issue then by all means try attending a different ward as has been suggested. If someone approaches you as to why you should attend your own, tell them your concerns about the reverence and that when your ward addresses the issue you will return, but until then you will attend elsewhere where reverence and respect are practiced.

That said, do try your own ward for several weeks, sitting near the front, and talk to your bishop if things continue, and then see about attending elsewhere. All good wishes.

from the beach on a rainy, windy day (gusts to 70 MPH)... GG

Edited November 19, 2012 by Garden Girl

[Calm]

the Bishop I was impressed by, he noticed I was new and came over introduced himself and had a brief chat.

I was wondering whether to speak to him, but didn't want to come across as a new upstart, I've no idea if he's just started as a Bishop (he was quite young) and so want to be sensitive to him. Perhaps after my next visit I can have a chat about it.

Perhaps if you were to present it as not as a criticism, but as something you need for your own comfort level and that you would like to help others get the most out of the meetings as well.

[TAO]

Yeah, if it's noisy, talk to the Bishop perhaps. Also, sit closer as advised, it'll help.

On the other hand, do remember, these are children making the noise mostly (or at least it is so in my experience). While it may be annoying... we probably should bear it to some degree. I mean... well... the Savior loved children. I don't think he'd be too harsh on them, if you know what i mean =p. He still might asked them to be taken out into the side rooms (or maybe he might just ask the speakers to speak louder), but he'd do it kindly, if you get what I'm saying.

In any case, I'm sorry if your meeting seemed chaotic. I wish you could come to ours here in Cali; we had a wonderful speaker the other day who talked about the importance of man in God's creations. It was really good. =)

Hope things go well for you =).

-TAO

[Scott Lloyd]

And not all over. My wards in California were not noisy at all. I think going to BYU with the married students, there are so many kids that even if they are mostly reverent it is still noisy and the reality is that they feed off of each other. Once the students leave BYU, they may take the bad habit with them and even think that there is no hope for it or they may think it's much quieter and don't notice how bad it is because children are always around them, unlike those of us who don't have young kids at home any more.

Interestingly, my BYU sacrament meeting experience was in absolute contrast to yours -- the difference being that I never attended married-student wards. I remember how shocked I was the first couple of times I attended sacrament meeting at the total silence that ensued as the sacrament was being passed. I simply wasn't used to it, having grown up attending sacrament meetings where young children were always present.

I do think that while allowance must be made for the inevitability of some disorder among young children, there is no excuse for lack of reverence among adults. I have been in the foyer outside the chapel when adults were there who gabbed and chatted away through the entire meeting, including the prayers and the sacrament service. At the very least, they were being extremely inconsiderate to others who had to be in the foyer for whatever reason yet desired to hear the proceedings of the meeting and partake of what spirit of reverence they could.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Scott Lloyd

[Traela]

I think it does depend on the ward. Our ward tends to be very quiet, in spite of an average number of small children. Compare that to the ward one of our members visited, that seemed to her to be completely out of control. Yes, it was a big ward, but even the adults were talking during the meeting, not just whispering. And while the sacrament was being passed, no less!

I think in such a ward, it could be a good strategy for the Primary to take the lead- spend a month on proper Sacrament Meeting behaviour, including appropriate speaking volume, while making a pitch to the other organizations that "We're trying to emphasize these behaviours, could you please reinforce them?"

[why me]

thanks for the replies folks.

BUT if I literally can't hear the speakers due to noise of kids (and parents yelling at them), I genuinely think a line has been crossed.

This is a REAL stumbling block for me, I feel that if the church (admitedly just my local meeting) can't get this right/sorted the rest of it is also shaky.

In Friendship

You may have hit a bad day in the ward. It may not be this way during all sacrament meetings. You can also talk to the bishop about it. I am sure that he would enjoy your comments. It is not easy getting kids ready on a sunday and it is not easy having them quiet at church. And reverence can be a problem with some families. But I wouldn't judge the truth claims of the lds by noisy children. And those parents yelling at their children during sacrament need to control themselves and learn reverence too.

Give it another try and see what happens. Then talk to the bishop or missionaries about it.

[why me]

I do think that while allowance must be made for the inevitability of some disorder among young children, there is no excuse for lack of reverence among adults. I have been in the foyer outside the chapel when adults were there who gabbed and chatted away through the entire meeting, including the prayers and the sacrament service. At the very least, they were being extremely inconsiderate to others who had to be in the foyer for whatever reason yet desired to hear the proceedings of the meeting and partake of what spirit of reverence they could.

Can it be that many members consider the ward their living room? It can seem that way...a sort of all in the family routine where we are all brothers and sisters, gathering as one big happy family.

[rpn]

If the issue is of hearing, consider asking for an amplification device. Every ward has one or more (or are supposed to).

[Scott Lloyd]

Can it be that many members consider the ward their living room? It can seem that way...a sort of all in the family routine where we are all brothers and sisters, gathering as one big happy family.

Perhaps.

But even in our living room at home, there are occasions when we insist on silence/courtesy/reverence.

[Antoni]

Think I just need them to watch this:

[Calm]

Interestingly, my BYU sacrament meeting experience was in absolute contrast to yours -- the difference being that I never attended married-student wards. I remember how shocked I was the first couple of times I attended sacrament meeting at the total silence that ensued as the sacrament was being passed. I simply wasn't used to it, having grown up attending sacrament meetings where young children were always present.

I do think that while allowance must be made for the inevitability of some disorder among young children, there is no excuse for lack of reverence among adults. I have been in the foyer outside the chapel when adults were there who gabbed and chatted away through the entire meeting, including the prayers and the sacrament service. At the very least, they were being extremely inconsiderate to others who had to be in the foyer for whatever reason yet desired to hear the proceedings of the meeting and partake of what spirit of reverence they could.

The single wards were the most reverent/quiet I've ever been to as well. If you have a noisy child, it might be a good way to teach him to be quiet, lol. All I know is our son having spent the first few years as the only child in a singles ward (we'd go for Sacrament to be with Dad who was a counselor in the Branch Presidency) was always been extremely quiet and luckily our daughter picked that up as well (perhaps the 8 years difference helped as it was more like sitting with three adults than two kids).

[mfbukowski]

thanks for the replies folks.

BUT if I literally can't hear the speakers due to noise of kids (and parents yelling at them), I genuinely think a line has been crossed.

I know to some, you'll think I'm just making a mountain out of a molehill but I just find it odd that people seem to justify it. Yes I need to ask for God's grace, but I think respect works both ways, if you're little beloved is too badly behaved to be in church then I think the parent has to address that and maybe they need to make the sacrifice of not attending (by being in another room with speaker on) rather than ruining the meeting for everyone else.

I understand that the Temple will be the place for quiet relection, but if I can only get there by attending sacrament meeting regularly, I think I'm just going to have to wait until beyond this life.

This is a REAL stumbling block for me, I feel that if the church (admitedly just my local meeting) can't get this right/sorted the rest of it is also shaky.

In Friendship

The true gospel is service. Get baptized and get to work and experience what the gospel really is- it is giving, not getting.

[mfbukowski]

It varies a lot by ward. Sit closer to the front, and it will be better. The families with the disruptive children usually try to sit in back so they're less disruptive to the overall meeting.

You may have also just gone on a bad week. I know in our ward, every once in a while we have a week where it's very noisy, but for the most part things are calm and reverent and parents do take their children out when they get too loud.

It's never going to be as quiet as a tomb because, unfortunately, children don't have a "Mute" button. It can vary a lot from week to week and from ward to ward, but my experience is that in general, the atmosphere does allow for quiet reflection and worship.

But many from other faiths are used to being entertained by "great preachers" who put on a good show.

The problem is that sacrament meetings may actually be boring unless you find what is there to be found. Babies cry. Young men bless and pass the sacrament and make mistakes. People bear embarrassing testimonies and say weird things.

It happens and if that is a deal breaker, let the deal be broken- I say. This is a living church made up of human beings, not a rest home for the perfected.

If one sits back and wants to be entertained by great talks on the level of the General Authorities, sacrament meeting is not the place one finds that.

Elder Bednar taught that church is a "learning laboratory" where we all work together and literally experiment on each other.

A Latter-Day Learning Laboratory

The capacity to conquer offense may seem beyond our reach. This capability, however, is not reserved for or restricted to prominent leaders in the Church like Brigham Young. The very nature of the Redeemer’s Atonement and the purpose of the restored Church are intended to help us receive precisely this kind of spiritual strength.

Paul taught the Saints in Ephesus that the Savior established His Church “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

“Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:12–13).

Please note the use of the active word perfecting. As described by Elder Neal A. Maxwell, the Church is not “a well-provisioned rest home for the already perfected” (“A Brother Offended,” Ensign, May 1982, 38). Rather, the Church is a learning laboratory and a workshop in which we gain experience as we practice on each other in the ongoing process of “perfecting the Saints.”

Elder Maxwell also insightfully explained that in this latter-day learning laboratory known as the restored Church, the members constitute the “clinical material” (see “Jesus, the Perfect Mentor,” Ensign, Feb. 2001, 13) that is essential for growth and development. A visiting teacher learns her duty as she serves and loves her Relief Society sisters. An inexperienced teacher learns valuable lessons as he teaches both supportive and inattentive learners and thereby becomes a more effective teacher. And a new bishop learns how to be a bishop through inspiration and by working with ward members who wholeheartedly sustain him, even while recognizing his human frailties.

Understanding that the Church is a learning laboratory helps us to prepare for an inevitable reality. In some way and at some time, someone in this Church will do or say something that could be considered offensive. Such an event will surely happen to each and every one of us—and it certainly will occur more than once. Though people may not intend to injure or offend us, they nonetheless can be inconsiderate and tactless.

You and I cannot control the intentions or behavior of other people. However, we do determine how we will act. Please remember that you and I are agents endowed with moral agency, and we can choose not to be offended.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2006/10/and-nothing-shall-offend-them?lang=eng

[mfbukowski]

Think I just need them to watch this:

[media=]

Great video! That's exactly what we used to do- but we made the kids sit on our laps if they got taken out. Inside they could color quietly and munch cheerios- outside fergetaboutit.

It worked. Three or so trips outside was about all it took for each child then poof- no more problems!!

[Antoni]

I'm well aware that a meeting is a place for those not perfected.

I also am aware of the need to sustain those outside their comfort zones.

I'm not after being entertained, I can get that anywhere, I was hoping to enter a reverent meeting where we could all in reverence focus on the sacrament and the teachings thos asked to teach had taken time to prepare.

I don't think expecting parents and children to behave any better than if they were at a restaurant, on a bus, doctors waiting room etc. is a huge ask on the road to perfection.

anyway we'll see what it's like next time.

[mfbukowski]

Can it be that many members consider the ward their living room? It can seem that way...a sort of all in the family routine where we are all brothers and sisters, gathering as one big happy family.

I think that is exactly it. Having a Catholic background I think I was looking for a Mass-like sacrament meeting and boy- was I wrong! We are a family church of participants- not a top-down-priest-does-everything kind of church.

Many times church for LDS is more like a weekly family reunion than it is a Catholic Mass. It is Family Home Evening on a more formal scale.

You are a bishop for a while while your family life goes on and while you go to work every day and probably work twice as hard on Sunday as you do during the week, and then you are released. We are not professional preachers or orators or entertainers, our bishops are family men who are volunteers. Just plain regular people who are dedicated to the Lord and serving other plain regular people who love God.

Bishops are dads first, so are stake presidents and general authorities. As a people, we are used to having kids underfoot all day long and after a while when you live with multiple small children you don't even hear it - during college I used to live in the flight path of a major airport and at first the plane noise drove me crazy, but after a while I didn't even hear it. Same thing with little kids.

But clearly we need to be more attentive to reverence for folks not used to little kids. Clearly we need to work on it. But on the other hand, the reality is that this is a living family oriented church, and that is NOT going to change.

[mfbukowski]

I'm well aware that a meeting is a place for those not perfected.

I also am aware of the need to sustain those outside their comfort zones.

I'm not after being entertained, I can get that anywhere, I was hoping to enter a reverent meeting where we could all in reverence focus on the sacrament and the teachings thos asked to teach had taken time to prepare.

I don't think expecting parents and children to behave any better than if they were at a restaurant, on a bus, doctors waiting room etc. is a huge ask on the road to perfection.

anyway we'll see what it's like next time.

Agreed, and it should be all those things and more. And certainly clearly you are right that the bare minimum is that the children should be well-behaved in public and especially at church.

Speak to the bishop as has been suggested because clearly he has a problem with reverence. I am sure all it would take is a mention or two over the pulpit for things to turn around quickly.

It won't be perfect, but I am confident that would make it significantly better!

[willie]

Our ward has a noise problem during the prelude music. I would be overjoyed if it was only the children making the noise. Unfortunately that is not the case. The adults are the noisy ones. During the prelude music I overhear yesterday's BYU score, or what they did the past week, or "Do you wanna go Home Teaching soon?", etc. I try to sit in quiet prayer and preparation, with my head bowed, but even that does not stop someone from interrupting me with a "Hello" or "Can we visit you this week?". I have spoken to the Bishop(s) over the past years and nothing seems to change.

I say "If the prelude music is playing and you are talking to someone other than God,,,,,Stop!" If you really need to talk to me, let's take it into the hallway.

[rodheadlee]

We get to experience a lot of different wards being transients. When I can't hear I just put my hands over my ears and read my scriptures. i have very bad hearing so it happens a lot. My favorite class is Sunday School, it's much more quiet with some great lessons and discussions. Antoni I do hope you find what you need and stay.

[Bikeemikey]

That is pretty much the way it is... Hope you are able to find a way to make it work.

On the bright side, what we lack in quality (reverence) we make up for in quantity. You get three hours of it :-).

[Vanguard]

Hi,

as a few know I attended my first sacrament meeting this week. I've had a few PM's with folks here as I thought it best to keep my concerns private, but I really feel I need to share them with the wider group on this board now.

Now as some of you know I've been seriously investigating the faith these last 9 months and so finally felt I needed to make the next step and attend the sacrament meeting.

I have to say I'm totally dissapointed. I could barely concentrate the noise from the children was deafening and there was anything but a reverent attitude as people ambled in and out of the meeting all the time. Children were running up and down the aisle's and I literally only got snippets of the talks, one of which I found was really "speaking to me".

I'd like to go again and sit nearer the front and see if that makes a difference (as I was near the back), but I'm also wondering if I should bother. If this is the main meeting, and it's being treated like this I can't see the point. Now I know it's hard being a parent and I especially sympathise with single parents (I was raised by one myself), but the complete disrespect that was shown to speakers (let alone the Spirit) has left me literally dumfounded.

This is going to sound very selfish, but if I don't get anything from the meeting what's the point in going? There are a great many things I like about the church, but as this is where I'll spend most of my time I really don't think I could stand it every week, I'll end up frustrated and annoyed, hardly a useful place to be.

I know it wasn't going to be like general conference, but I've seen children behave much better in churches of other denominations, I also have no idea why parents didn't take the disobedient children out?

Having spoken to a few others, the general consensus is "that's the way it is", if that is true, I've got a big struggle ahead and to be honest I'm not sure the struggle is worth it.

In Friendship

Welcome to the church where "everyman" is not only in charge of everything but everyone is expected to participate - children included. LDS Sacrament Mtgs are not nearly the polished performances that you might find in other denominations. Our Sacrament Mtg is more like an extended Mormon family dinner time where prayer is conducted - abeit while Sally giggles or burbs. I too struggle virtually every week in sensing the spirit while in Sacrament Mtg. If my "reallty" is an appropriate gauge and if you're seeking communion during this mtg wth your God in the typical "mystical" sense of the word, you'll be disappointed more often than satisfied. Granted, we should always expect more from our children during the most sacred parts of the mtg but the reality is that we don't want to run the risk of shunning any particular family because little Carrie won't stop throwing her rattle at others while the selected speaker bears their testimony. Better to appreciate the crucible for what it is than to pine for something better. Besides, the best inspiriational power does not emanate from Sacrament Mtg but rather from your own quiet communications with your God either in the solace of your closet or in our temples.

Bottom line is that we lose everytime when compared to other denominational mtgs in other chapels. And regardless of whether children are causing too much of a fuss, you'll still find yourself bored with the speakers more often than not. Celebrate the "communal struggle" at this meeting or fall on your sword railing against it. Ironically, such railing will preclude you from catching the best spirit that our Sacrament Mtgs offer - that is, learning to tolerate and work with the shortcomings of this one, big family-like organization we call an LDS brotherhood and the unsurpassed blessing that go with this.

Peace and longsuffering.

[cdowis]

Now as some of you know I've been seriously investigating the faith these last 9 months and so finally felt I needed to make the next step and attend the sacrament meeting.

Bishop,

I need your help. Do you have a set of earphones I could use during Sacrament meeting? I can't hear the speakers and sacrament prayer over the noise.

(some wards have earphones for the hard of hearing)

Anyway, our ward has a great system. Just five minutes prior to the start of Sacrament meeting, someone in the bishopric stands up and reminds everyone that the meeting is about to begin and to please be reverent. Also, we do not have announcements until after the meeting is over, so we start the meeting with a great level of reverence.