Sacrament Meeting Concerns

[Antoni]

Hi,

as a few know I attended my first sacrament meeting this week. I've had a few PM's with folks here as I thought it best to keep my concerns private, but I really feel I need to share them with the wider group on this board now.

Now as some of you know I've been seriously investigating the faith these last 9 months and so finally felt I needed to make the next step and attend the sacrament meeting.

I have to say I'm totally dissapointed. I could barely concentrate the noise from the children was deafening and there was anything but a reverent attitude as people ambled in and out of the meeting all the time. Children were running up and down the aisle's and I literally only got snippets of the talks, one of which I found was really "speaking to me".

I'd like to go again and sit nearer the front and see if that makes a difference (as I was near the back), but I'm also wondering if I should bother. If this is the main meeting, and it's being treated like this I can't see the point. Now I know it's hard being a parent and I especially sympathise with single parents (I was raised by one myself), but the complete disrespect that was shown to speakers (let alone the Spirit) has left me literally dumfounded.

This is going to sound very selfish, but if I don't get anything from the meeting what's the point in going? There are a great many things I like about the church, but as this is where I'll spend most of my time I really don't think I could stand it every week, I'll end up frustrated and annoyed, hardly a useful place to be.

I know it wasn't going to be like general conference, but I've seen children behave much better in churches of other denominations, I also have no idea why parents didn't take the disobedient children out?

Having spoken to a few others, the general consensus is "that's the way it is", if that is true, I've got a big struggle ahead and to be honest I'm not sure the struggle is worth it.

In Friendship

[volgadon]

I know it wasn't going to be like general conference, but I've seen children behave much better in churches of other denominations, I also have no idea why parents didn't take the disobedient children out?

It is an American thing, by what I've seen. My wife and I are church members originally from overseas, and that is one of the things we noticed here.

I say that it is still worth it, once you put your trust in the Atonement and enter into the covenant of baptism.

[Antoni]

I should add this was in the UK

[Antoni]

found a quote from President Hinkley talking about an experience decades ago:

"We need, every one of us needs, to pause from the hectic pace of our lives and to reflect upon things sacred and divine. I recall that when I was a missionary in London, England, more than fifty years ago, we held our meetings in the Battersea town hall, which we rented. The floors were hard, and we sat on chairs. Every time a chair moved there was a noise. But this was not the worst aspect of the situation. Far worse was the noisy socializing of the members of the branch.

On one occasion we invited a family whom we had met while tracting. With great expectation we as missionaries stood by the door to welcome them. There was the usual convivial spirit in the hall, with the members talking noisily one with another. When this family came into the room, they quietly moved toward some chairs, knelt for a moment, and closed their eyes in a word of prayer. They then sat in an attitude of reverence amidst all the commotion.

Frankly, I was embarrassed. They had come to what they regarded as a worship service, and they behaved themselves accordingly.

At the close of the meeting they left quietly, and when we next met they spoke of their disappointment in what they had experienced. I have never forgotten that."

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&sourceId=969567700817b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____

[volgadon]

I should add this was in the UK

Odd, it certainly wasn't like that when I attended a couple of times.

[CV75]

Having spoken to a few others, the general consensus is "that's the way it is", if that is true, I've got a big struggle ahead and to be honest I'm not sure the struggle is worth it.

In settings that warrant our utmost reverence, we all suffer some form of distraction from the Spirit, whether it is internal due to sin or illness, or external due to noise, movement, etc. This is where we must rely on the Lord’s grace to not be offended by others and instead focus on Him. It is worth the struggle. Imagine what joy and strength are gained by overcoming these distractions with the Lord’s help, whatever form they take. Charitably sharing your concerns with your friends at Church may contribute to their bringing it to the attention of those who can most effectively address the issue, either generally or specifically, as warranted.

[Freedom]

Our services are for families and children are noisy. We do need to be more referent and respectful in our services, but we take from the meeting what be bring. I make a concerted effort not to talk in the chapel before the service begins but we are a very social church and our quiet assemblies take place in the temple.

[Duncan]

it's a hit and miss situation. When my son was a little tyke, he wouldn't keep his yap shut and still doesn't but now he is quieter so he's learning! I resolved then if I get one thing from Church it's all worth it. I felt bad though for people sitting around us. Now, I appreciate noisy kids because I realize that I am not the only parent dealing with it!

Edited November 19, 2012 by Duncan

[Antoni]

thanks for the replies folks.

BUT if I literally can't hear the speakers due to noise of kids (and parents yelling at them), I genuinely think a line has been crossed.

I know to some, you'll think I'm just making a mountain out of a molehill but I just find it odd that people seem to justify it. Yes I need to ask for God's grace, but I think respect works both ways, if you're little beloved is too badly behaved to be in church then I think the parent has to address that and maybe they need to make the sacrifice of not attending (by being in another room with speaker on) rather than ruining the meeting for everyone else.

I understand that the Temple will be the place for quiet relection, but if I can only get there by attending sacrament meeting regularly, I think I'm just going to have to wait until beyond this life.

This is a REAL stumbling block for me, I feel that if the church (admitedly just my local meeting) can't get this right/sorted the rest of it is also shaky.

In Friendship

[Calm]

It is an American thing, by what I've seen. My wife and I are church members originally from overseas, and that is one of the things we noticed here.

I say that it is still worth it, once you put your trust in the Atonement and enter into the covenant of baptism.

And not all over. My wards in California were not noisy at all. I think going to BYU with the married students, there are so many kids that even if they are mostly reverent it is still noisy and the reality is that they feed off of each other. Once the students leave BYU, they may take the bad habit with them and even think that there is no hope for it or they may think it's much quieter and don't notice how bad it is because children are always around them, unlike those of us who don't have young kids at home any more.

I noticed with my son that because my husband was called to a singles ward and we went with him for the first three years or so, my son has always been very quiet and reverent. When you are the only little kid in the entire chapel, any little noise you make is heard by all, poor kid and he was always very much aware of others and trying to be good.

There was a time I couldn't handle the noise due to my anxiety disorder at the time, but I still went for the Sacrament, enjoyed singing the two hymns and then had a very pleasant walk home. It was worth it just for that.

[Duncan]

thanks for the replies folks.

BUT if I literally can't hear the speakers due to noise of kids (and parents yelling at them), I genuinely think a line has been crossed.

I know to some, you'll think I'm just making a mountain out of a molehill but I just find it odd that people seem to justify it. Yes I need to ask for God's grace, but I think respect works both ways, if you're little beloved is too badly behaved to be in church then I think the parent has to address that and maybe they need to make the sacrifice of not attending (by being in another room with speaker on) rather than ruining the meeting for everyone else.

I understand that the Temple will be the place for quiet relection, but if I can only get there by attending sacrament meeting regularly, I think I'm just going to have to wait until beyond this life.

This is a REAL stumbling block for me, I feel that if the church (admitedly just my local meeting) can't get this right/sorted the rest of it is also shaky.

In Friendship

if it's ridiculous as you say, just say something to the Bishop

[Calm]

thanks for the replies folks.

BUT if I literally can't hear the speakers due to noise of kids (and parents yelling at them), I genuinely think a line has been crossed.

I know to some, you'll think I'm just making a mountain out of a molehill but I just find it odd that people seem to justify it. Yes I need to ask for God's grace, but I think respect works both ways, if you're little beloved is too badly behaved to be in church then I think the parent has to address that and maybe they need to make the sacrifice of not attending (by being in another room with speaker on) rather than ruining the meeting for everyone else.

I understand that the Temple will be the place for quiet relection, but if I can only get there by attending sacrament meeting regularly, I think I'm just going to have to wait until beyond this life.

This is a REAL stumbling block for me, I feel that if the church (admitedly just my local meeting) can't get this right/sorted the rest of it is also shaky.

In Friendship

You should talk to the Bishop about your concerns, perhaps this may motivate him to try some new things. In my grandson's ward which is almost as bad as a married student ward with the number of kids they have, they have two kids stand up at the front as reverence examples, quiet and with their hands folded. I think it helps kids to see others their own age behaving rather than being told by parents. Parents also need to be aware that it isn't social time prior to Sacrament Meeting, that if people come in and sit down and are quiet at the beginning, it sets a more reverent tone for the rest of the meeting. This is something the Bishop can really help with.

Is there an older ward that you could attend with less kids that meets in the same building or not too far away?

[rchorse]

It varies a lot by ward. Sit closer to the front, and it will be better. The families with the disruptive children usually try to sit in back so they're less disruptive to the overall meeting.

You may have also just gone on a bad week. I know in our ward, every once in a while we have a week where it's very noisy, but for the most part things are calm and reverent and parents do take their children out when they get too loud.

It's never going to be as quiet as a tomb because, unfortunately, children don't have a "Mute" button. It can vary a lot from week to week and from ward to ward, but my experience is that in general, the atmosphere does allow for quiet reflection and worship.

[Storm Rider]

I think Antoni has make some excellent points. I may sound like an old crank, but I do think that reverence begins at home. We seldom if ever had problems with our children at church because they were accustomed to being reverent at home at specific time periods. Yes, our church is for families and no, our meetings are not necessarily noisy. Our meetings may be noisy because we have families that have a wide range of parenting skills. Some think that noisy children are the norm and that when they come to church their children are allowed to run pell-mell throughout the meeting. Others feel that discipline is not really conducive to young children (these are the people that should commit themselves to raising their children in barns because that is the best place for them)....now, I will get off that soap box. We each have a responsibility to be reverent and expect reverence in meetings. If you children have a problem with reverence then teach them how it is done at home. It does not begin at church and never has. We can learn a great deal from other groups about reverence.

[bluebell]

Antoni, it really depends on the ward. Some wards have a culture of just not getting it. They have forgotten what they are there for. They have lost the spirit and don't even realize it.

Not all wards are like that.

Yes, we all sacrifice in sacrament meeting sometimes. God has commanded that children be present, and so, sometimes you don't hear everything the speaker says. It's the small price we pay for having them there. That doesn't mean that kids get a run of the place though and get to behave like little tyrants-when that begins to happen, its because parents are either being lazy, or have never been taught that it's inappropriate, and the local leaders have not done their duty in safe-keeping the spirit of the meeting as much as possible.

My advice to you, is-go visit some other wards if possible. A ward is like a family-no two are exactly the same. Some are disfunctional, most are not, though none are perfect. If your testimony is not at the place right now where it can weather a disfunctional ward, then see if you can find one that's less work right now, until you are at a place where you feel you can be a strength and a help to a ward that might be struggling.

Don't give up after one bad experience. If you have felt the Spirit speaking to you in learning about the Gospel as taught by the LDS church, then that witness is no less true after one bad experience. Being a member of this church isn't for the faint of heart.

[Antoni]

Thanks,

I will try again and sit nearer the front. There is another meeting a bit further away, but I was under the impression that you should only go to your local one?

I'm not being overly dramatic with regards the volume, you couldn't hear the speakers alot of the time. One of which was the Stake President, I was more surpised at the lack of respect to the speakers more than anything else.

I was also bemused that so many adult ambled in and out throughout the meeting too. It just felt like chaos and a free for all. I know it'll not be silent, but a bit of common courtesy seems like a big ask, which seems strange to me.

[Calm]

You should try to go, but if the only way you can go is to go to a different ward, then I don't see it as a problem. I have a real hard time with the earlier meetings so when my ward is first on Sunday mornings, I often go to partake of the Sacrament in a later meeting.

[thesometimesaint]

Antoni:

We're a family friendly church. So I expect some noise before the meetings start. We should be more reverent not only for others, but so we can hear that still small voice of the Spirit. I agree with Duncan. Say something to the Bishop.

[Antoni]

I think Antoni has make some excellent points. I may sound like an old crank, but I do think that reverence begins at home. We seldom if ever had problems with our children at church because they were accustomed to being reverent at home at specific time periods. Yes, our church is for families and no, our meetings are not necessarily noisy. Our meetings may be noisy because we have families that have a wide range of parenting skills. Some think that noisy children are the norm and that when they come to church their children are allowed to run pell-mell throughout the meeting. Others feel that discipline is not really conducive to young children (these are the people that should commit themselves to raising their children in barns because that is the best place for them)....now, I will get off that soap box. We each have a responsibility to be reverent and expect reverence in meetings. If you children have a problem with reverence then teach them how it is done at home. It does not begin at church and never has. We can learn a great deal from other groups about reverence.

My thoughts too.

[Calm]

Thanks,

I will try again and sit nearer the front. There is another meeting a bit further away, but I was under the impression that you should only go to your local one?

I'm not being overly dramatic with regards the volume, you couldn't hear the speakers alot of the time. One of which was the Stake President, I was more surpised at the lack of respect to the speakers more than anything else.

I was also bemused that so many adult ambled in and out throughout the meeting too. It just felt like chaos and a free for all. I know it'll not be silent, but a bit of common courtesy seems like a big ask, which seems strange to me.

With the adults wandering about (I am assuming they are not just taking care of the kids), it does sound like a ward that needs some work on being quiet....though I have to admit I can be a wanderer...go to the back of the Church and stand up or walk up and down in the foyer when my movement disorder acts up.

[RBoylan]

Thanks,

I will try again and sit nearer the front. There is another meeting a bit further away, but I was under the impression that you should only go to your local one?

I'm not being overly dramatic with regards the volume, you couldn't hear the speakers alot of the time. One of which was the Stake President, I was more surpised at the lack of respect to the speakers more than anything else.

I was also bemused that so many adult ambled in and out throughout the meeting too. It just felt like chaos and a free for all. I know it'll not be silent, but a bit of common courtesy seems like a big ask, which seems strange to me.

Hi Antoni,

From my experience in the Church in Ireland (and to a lesser extent, the UK), while children are loud (babies crying; the usual), it is not as bad as your experience on a "normal" Sunday. I do echo the advice to try maybe a different ward, or perhaps this was just a "once-off" in the ward you attended.

Nice to see another one in the Ireland/UK region here, btw.

[Antoni]

Antoni:

We're a family friendly church. So I expect some noise before the meetings start. We should be more reverent not only for others, but so we can hear that still small voice of the Spirit. I agree with Duncan. Say something to the Bishop.

the Bishop I was impressed by, he noticed I was new and came over introduced himself and had a brief chat.

I was wondering whether to speak to him, but didn't want to come across as a new upstart, I've no idea if he's just started as a Bishop (he was quite young) and so want to be sensitive to him. Perhaps after my next visit I can have a chat about it.

[CV75]

thanks for the replies folks.

BUT if I literally can't hear the speakers due to noise of kids (and parents yelling at them), I genuinely think a line has been crossed.

I know to some, you'll think I'm just making a mountain out of a molehill but I just find it odd that people seem to justify it. Yes I need to ask for God's grace, but I think respect works both ways, if you're little beloved is too badly behaved to be in church then I think the parent has to address that and maybe they need to make the sacrifice of not attending (by being in another room with speaker on) rather than ruining the meeting for everyone else.

I understand that the Temple will be the place for quiet relection, but if I can only get there by attending sacrament meeting regularly, I think I'm just going to have to wait until beyond this life.

This is a REAL stumbling block for me, I feel that if the church (admitedly just my local meeting) can't get this right/sorted the rest of it is also shaky.

In Friendship

The #1 purpsoe for the meeting is to partake of the Lord's Supper; listening to speakers is secondary. Most meeting houses have intercom systems if you need to listen from another room, or earphones if that helps.

Unfortunately, you cannot control what other people do, only your own reaction/response to them and with the Lord's help. As we know from the Savior's example, respect does not go both ways, and expecting it from others at the risk of losing the greater benefit of the Sacrament would be a tragedy.

I encourage you to hang in there, because He will strengthen you. He is not shaky, the keys He has restored are not shaky, and the covenants you make with Him are not shaky.

[bluebell]

I remember being a member of a ward that had a lot of youth, who seemed to have issues staying in sacrament meeting the whole time. One day (and i don't remember if it was in testmony meeting or in a talk) one of the more outspoken sisters in the ward mentioned that there was no reason someone needed to leave sacrament meeting more than once and if you needed to go to the bathroom that much, then you need to go to the doctor because there is something wrong with you.

Though she wasn't talking about parents leaving with kids (there are times when a person might legitimately need to get up multiple times during a meeting), her words sure put an end to the constant up and down of the teenagers in the ward (something their parents should have done a long time before). After someone made a point of highlighting that something would be wrong with a person who was up and down that much, none of the teenagers wanted that stigma attached to them!

I'm not saying publicly rebuking the congregation is a good idea, but sometimes i think people do need to be reminded that they are not behaving appropriately and that people are noticing. It's too easy for behavior to just be accepted until it begins to appear acceptable.

[Antoni]

Having had a look, there are a couple of other of wards I can try out too.

So we may spend the next few weeks trying them out too.