Steve Young And Clayton Christensen Sunday Athletics

[ERayR]

Is what Jesus said about this commandment something we shouldn't discuss?

Jesus didn't say it was alright to work on the sabbath. He said it was alright to get something to eat on the sabbath. Note the incident that brought on his response was not someone harvesting their field but a disciple picking a few heads of grain to eat.

[rongo]

Great conversion story (I've used it in illustrating real member missionary work, including not being afraid of "botching" things or saying the wrong thing, awkwardness, etc.)

When Dale was 19, he started to wonder and ponder about spiritual things. Some players he spoke to encouraged him to "get religion," but most treated this as something weird and to be avoided. He attended different church services when and where possible, and this felt good, but he still felt like he was missing something. Answers to his questions (is drinking beer bad? etc.) were all over the map. During this time, an older player named Barry Bonnell was acquired by the Atlanta Braves in a trade, and Dale noticed that he was different from the others ---- more mature, and self-assured. Plus, while traveling, he was always reading a blue paperback with a gold statue on the cover, instead of pornography like many of the others. Players would ask what Barry was reading that was so interesting, and then walk away shaking their heads.

During batting practice, Dale shared with Barry that he had been trying to make some changes in his life, and Barry encouraged him and told him that this was important. That night, on the bus with an all-night ride ahead of them, Barry came and sat by Dale. They were quiet for a while, and then discussed again the changes that he had been making. Barry asked him if he had been baptized, and he told him "no" (he learned afterwards that he had been christened as a baby), and told him he didn't realize that was important. Barry answered that it is very important, and that Jesus had set the example for us by being baptized Himself.

Barry told him that he had always wondered why we didn't have a Moses or Elijah today to guide us, like in the Old Testament times, but had found that there is one today. His name was Spencer W. Kimball. Dale had no idea who Moses and Elijah were, but he felt something special when he mentioned that he had found a prophet today, and knew his name. They talked all night on the bus trip, and Barry asked him how he felt about what he had been taught. Dale answered that he felt good, and Barry asked him if he could bring the missionaries to teach him.

Dale was really nervous at their first appointment, and when the missionaries asked him if he had heard or knew of this or that, he answered no. "What are you talking about?" Barry answered. "We talked about that on the bus" (Barry later told him that he had told him everything he knew on the bus ---- he had only been a member for a year himself). Dale walked the floors in his apartment after the appointment, running over the conversation in his head, and he felt the Spirit. Most of all, though, he wanted what Barry and Stefnie Bonnell had ---- he wanted to be like them.

--------

I find several fundamental principles in this experience.

1) Dale gave indications, hints, etc. to a member friend that he was thinking and open to the message, and the member acted on that.

2) Member example and spirit (aura) is much more important than topical expertise, glibness, articulateness. Dale was drawn to Barry because of his example, and ultimately, it was wanting what Barry and Stefnie had that drove things.

3) Simply reading the scriptures or "conversation piece" Mormon items in public often brings about gospel conversations, and people initiate them instead of us.

4) When Barry knew that he needed to do something, he did the best he knew how, even if it was awkward. Sitting next to him on the bus was out of the ordinary, but needed to be done.

5) "Have you been baptized?" is probably not how most of us envision starting off "our approach." We need to give the Holy Ghost credit in His work, and not worry about how "good" our approach is ---- just try our best and leave the heavy lifting to Him. It's His work.

6) Dale didn't remember specifics from his gospel conversation, he remembered how he felt and the overall impression. We need to not be so uptight about saying the wrong things or saying things better (not that it's not important, but most member fear about opening their mouths stems from this uptightness).

[Freedom]

In the case of LDS athletes, "playing" on Sunday is their career.

Yes, I wasn't clear. I should have said there is a difference between playing sports on a sunday and having a career that requires you to play sports on a sunday. But there is also the issue of career development If you have a talent for gymnastics as was noted, then you will have competitions on Sundays from time to time. Do you forgo your career development? I don't know what the answer is but I will choose my path and let you choose yours.

[rongo]

I think you might be surprised.

I'm fully prepared to walk this back, and knew at the outset that it was a minefield when I "threw it out there."

He tells a story of a certain teammate warning others not to make fun of Steve's garments because of their sacred significance.

I've heard that, too. My concern has always been the fact that he continues to work on Sundays with schedules that make it impossible to attend church, even though he's long-since retired.

My sense, for its minimal worth, is that Steve is every bit as faithful as any LDS you would care to put him up against.

I think there are many (superficially) better examples.

Bob Crockett wrote:

I know Steve Young, somewhat indirectly through one of my law partners. You might be confused by the nonsense over Prop 8, but there's a lot to that story.

Yes, there is that, too. It always seemed to me that it was more Steve's wife than he with the comments, taking signs down, etc. during the Prop 8 campaign. It seemed to me that Steve wasn't guilty of publicly criticizing the Church so much as he was guilty of remaining silent while the impression was given that that was how he felt. He notably waited to say anything until after the election. navigating the "wife minefield" can be tricky and delicate, and he was probably doing the best that he could.

[Rob Osborn]

My bright and shiny two cents-

I am in this very position with my own son. My son, a high school junior, is a gifted athlete in the sport of baseball. Over the years we have been very supportive of supporting him in his God given ability, his art, so to speak. When he got older around high school age, he was asked to play in different travel ball leagues that sometimes played on Sundays. We talked about it and decided that we would support his decision (yes, he does have his agency) to play these few times on Sunday. Certain people in church questioned his decision at church( not sayin who) preaching it as the wrong decision. My son, though torn, decided to play anyway realizing that if he ever does go professional in the sport, would have to play on Sunday eventually anyway. Soon after this, my son has become inactive in large part due to differences between interpretation about keeping the sabbath day holy with certain individuals in our ward.

It brings up several points of special interest to me. Did my son become inactive because he decided to go ahead and sometimes play on Sunday? I don't believe so. In fact, when questioning him one time when all the stars were lined up, he told me that he was somewhat put off by the attitude of certain individuals preaching to him that perhaps it was a bad decision, a decision that was contrary to Gods commandments to play on Sunday. His logical thought process though gives him a conflict though that isnt easily remedied. If he wants to follow his dream, at some point he must play on Sunday. Its a personal decision ultimately between him and God. Son realizes that a person can still observe and worship God when they are able to. Dale Murphy also knew this and substituted his worship time with God around his career choice.

Yes it saddens me to see son falling off into inactivity but I am still going to support his decision to play on Sundays, even to the extent of driving on Sundays to get to games and watching him play on Sundays. Look at BYU baseball, they encourage all their recruits to serve missions. Obviously the church run school doesn't participate in scheduling any sports activities on Sundays. But, student baseball athletes at BYU also would love nothing more than a professional career and it is partially the job of the coaching staff to provide adequate training and recruiting the right players that have good chances of getting drafted or signed to play professional ball. So is BYU in the wrong ship? Absolutely not!

[rongo]

An LDS athlete who has the potential to make a splash as far as missionary effect is Jabari Parker, the #1 basketball recruit in the country.

http://articles.chic...hool-basketball

He shocked people by listing BYU as one of his five final schools he is considering (he hasn't made up his mind about a mission). Here is a detailed report (with picture links) from a fireside the Parker family did in the Bay area. My uncle returned last year after serving as the Lansing Michigan mission president, and he lives in the Bay area. He got this from someone he knows.

-------------

Jabari Parker Fireside Recap

I feel a bit like a Jim Rome clone here, "long time listener, first time caller" which we all hate to hear, but I finally feel I have something of value to share and figured I would finally take the plunge.

I had the chance to attend the Jabari Parker Fireside last night in Oakland, CA and I must say that Jabari is a very special young man from a very special family. If last night is any indication, he has the potential of being a HUGE force for good and for the church around the world.

I am the YM president in my ward and when I found out that Jabari was coming to town I immediately alerted the troops and made it a mandatory activity. I also took my 8 year old son with me. Needless to say Jabari and his family did not disappoint. The meeting was very spiritual, fun and was one of those "so proud to be a Mormon" moments! Here is a quick rundown of the night.

First, it was hosted by the Tongan stake in the bay area and the Oakland stake center was packed, which is no small taks since it seats a few hundred/thousand and even has balcony seats. Jabari's Mom is from Tonga and served her mission there so this was a bit of a homecoming for her and her family. The Tongan stake did an awesome job hosting the event and you could tell they are very proud of Jabari's polynesian descent. Jabari's mom also seemed to know every one in the room. She spoke first and recapped the story of how she met Sonny (similar to what was in the SI article) but shared some other interesting stories. Two that stuck out were when she asked Sonny if raising her family in the church would ever be a concern for him. He said it was not, to which she re-inforced that if there was ever day he told her she could not take her kids to church or raise them in the gospel would be the day her and the kids would leave him. She said it with so much power and conviction that you couldnt help but feel her deep commitment and love for the gospel, it was pretty powerful. She also shared experiences when she was a relief society president in Chicago and how Sonny would accompany her on visits to sisters in the "projects" despite the concerns of the local church leaders for their safety. It was pretty cool to hear how supportive Sonny is of their faith and commitment to the church. The second experience was when Jabari and Chris (Jabari's older brother) where young kids she had a sister in the ward that needed help moving. It turned out that nobody showed up to help so she grabbed her sons from the basketball court and they drove over and helped the sister move her entire apartment up 9 flights of stairs. She really emphasized the importance of service and being an example of service to your children. It was a GREAT talk for the adults in the room.

She did say that she gets calls from coaches constantly but has stopped taking them because it takes time away from her family. She said time with her family is most precious of all and so if need be, she will take 2 weeks to respond to coaches calls. She also said she told Jabari and all of her children that they should use their gifts and talents for one thing and that is to bring people to Christ. She was very humble, but extremely bold and powerful.

Christian, Jabari's brother spoke second and shared some great stories from his mission. He was extremely well spoken and sounded like an EFY speaker. He shared how he and Jabari were talking about how amazing it was that they were doing a fireside and was very humble about the fact that they were the "main event". He then went on to share some great stories and experiences from his mission which was great for our young men that attended. He shared how he was pranked as a new missionary and was told to wear an orange vest and use orange airline light cones everytime his trainer needed to back the car up. He said this happened for more than a month and even in a walmart parking lot. It took him a month before he realized he was being punked by his trainer. It was a really funny story and everyone got a kick out of it. He also shared how important it was for us to honor our commitments and how our agency is weakened or strengthened by the choices we make. His fun and engaging demeanor was a perfect balance between his Mom's more serious tone. He provided a great "warmup" for Jabari.

Christian then showed the ABC feature on Jabari (which Jabari said was the first time he had seen it) and the crowd gave a huge round of applause afterwards (pretty standard for Non-Utah firesides). He then introduces his brother and shared his accomplishments. He was very proud to be "Jabari's brother" and seemed to be a strong influencein Jabari's life.

Jabari was your typical 17 year old, a little awkward because of his size and not too eloquent, but definitely had a humility to him that was very atypical. He only spoke for about ten minutes but shared experiences that anyone who serves with the youth would die for! He basically made it cool to be Mormon, cool to be different, cool to stand up for your beliefs. He shared how Proverbs 3:5-6 helped calm his anxiety before a state championship game. He also shared how we has not giving his best recently in preparation for the U17 world championships and his coach called him out on it. Afterwards he worked super hard in practice to the point that he ended up with a fracture in his big toe. He said this left him in a "very dark place" because he could not play or help his team. While in his hotel he decided to turn to the scriptures and prayer to find happiness (yeah, you cant make this stuff up! ) and shared Ether 12:27 with everyone. He said after reading in his hotel all day he was uplifted, filled with the spirit and ready to cheer on and support his teammates. He also went to the doctor that night and x-rays showed that his foot was miraculously healed and he was able to play in the final few games of the tournament. He also told the youth that "We all need to stick together, because in the end we are all the same" all believers in Jesus Christ which was really cool for our youth to hear.

He did not mention where he was going to play of course, but I was hoping! He did say that he gets frustrated with people asking him about his mission because in his mind, "Why Can't my mission be right now." This did seem a bit like he was suggesting he didnt need a mission to bring people to Christ, but I dont want to read into it too much. Finally, he encouraged the youth to build their talents and to be the "Diamonds in the rough" and to not fold under the pressure that society brings and to be shining examples of faith.

After the meeting he was swarmed for photos, but given that I am that obnoxious Dad who uses his son as an excuse to fulfill my own desire for autographs and cheesy famous people run-ins, I positioned us perfectly to get the first pic with Jabari. The photo sums up everything!

http://sphotos-b.xx....014275501_n.jpg

You could tell Jabari expected the response, but was till young and naive enough to enjoy it. It could not have been more different than my recent encounter with Jimmer, who could not have seemed more annoyed when we met him! I realize they are on different levels, but I truly hope Jabari never loses this excitement and kindness. I introduce him to my son, told him he loves basketball and that he was just baptized. Jabari congratulated him and then instantly picked him up in his arms. At 6'9" this was pretty cool for my son. I took a pic of him and my son and then took a pic him with my YM group. We were all ecstatic to meet him and the way he made us all feel. Again, as a YM president, not living in Utah, you are constantly fighting the battle that it is cool to be different. Jabari's presence, demeanor and attitude taught this principle far better than any lesson I could have ever prepared or given in Sunday school/Priesthood quorum.

I know this post is way too long, but I seriously have been on cloud 9 since the meeting last night. It was such a great moment and I truly hope Jabari lives up to the hype, no matter where he goes. I am a die hard BYU fan, season ticket holder (out of state), Cougar club member, etc but I can honestly say, after last night, I dont care where he goes, I will be his biggest cheerleader. He made a believer out of me and my son last night! (Of course I am hoping beyond hope that he comes to BYU, dont get me wrong.)

I hope this was helpful and worth the read. I figured it was about time I contribute to the craziness that is the BYU fandom! Cant wait to make the long drive from the bay area to Utah for the home opener against WSU, I have a feeling this is going to be a special season.

PS For those of you who mock the BYU Football firesides, I think it is important to remember how special nights like these are for us not living in Utah. I spent 4 years in Pleasan Grove and recently moved to the bay area. You forget how much those of us outside Utah have to stand up for our religion every day. Nights like last night once again make you so proud to be a member of the church and help you stand strong in your beliefs. I know the football firesides seem like a distraction, but I attended the Ole Miss fireside and can tell you the same spirit of pride and encouragement was there as it was last night here in Oakland. It really does strengthen the members who dont often get access to everything that is in Utah. So next time you dog on Bronco, keep this in mind, it is nice for us outside Utah to feel that connection to the church.

Edited November 16, 2012 by rongo

[ERMD]

Excellent post.

[Deardorff]

It is called being hypocrites. They play both ends against the middle so they can pick and choose examples while getting more tithing money. It is really all about the money.

Guys like Young have a college education and can choose another line of work rather than one that specifically requires their performance on Sunday. They know and understand Temple Teachings well: You can buy anything in this world for Money. That includes Themselves.

[Duncan]

It is called being hypocrites. They play both ends against the middle so they can pick and choose examples while getting more tithing money. It is really all about the money.

Guys like Young have a college education and can choose another line of work rather than one that specifically requires their performance on Sunday. They know and understand Temple Teachings well: You can buy anything in this world for Money. That includes Themselves.

I take it then you weren't a 49ers fan?

Edited November 16, 2012 by Duncan

[Calm]

Yes, I wasn't clear. I should have said there is a difference between playing sports on a sunday and having a career that requires you to play sports on a sunday. But there is also the issue of career development If you have a talent for gymnastics as was noted, then you will have competitions on Sundays from time to time. Do you forgo your career development? I don't know what the answer is but I will choose my path and let you choose yours.

Sometimes our choices aren't between good and bad, but good and better or best (as maybe has been referred to). I don't think that one should assume that just because they think someone's choice was wrong, that there was a better way of doing things, that makes their actual choice bad. It might have been a great choice and thus worthy of praise, but there may have been a better choice worthy of exaltation.

[Calm]

Studies have been done showing that those who know a Mormon or at least of Mormons are much more likely to be positive towards Mormons overall than those who aren't aware of the LDS around them.

There are few careers or opportunities that draw the public's attention more or at least as much as high profile sports. Music, movies and politics and being astronauts are the ones I can think of. Maybe someone else can come up with others. Besides going into space, each of those careers are hard on personal spiritual development and morality due to not only the demands they place on the individual, but even just the overall general environment so none of them look to me like 'good' choices if one wants to live a life in the world, but not of it with relative ease.

OTOH, few other life choices allows someone to reach out with a message better, at least in terms of numbers. The groundwork can be laid to allow others to yield a wider harvest of investigators. I remember when the Osmonds were big, it is astonishing to me how they managed just by their existence to raise the interest in their faith and bring others into it. My first roommate at BYU was converted because of them making an impression on her. It shocked me at the time, I thought that kind of impact was just a faith promoting story.

Different people have different missions in life, which may require different sacrifices. I would never encourage someone to chose a path that prevents them from fully fulfilling a commandment to the best of their ability, but if they have sincerely prayed about it and received a positive answer, I am not the one to tell them it is not what the Lord wants for them.

[Duncan]

Studies have been done showing that those who know a Mormon or at least of Mormons are much more likely to be positive towards Mormons overall than those who aren't aware of the LDS around them.

There are few careers or opportunities that draw the public's attention more or at least as much as high profile sports. Music, movies and politics and being astronauts are the ones I can think of. Maybe someone else can come up with others. Besides going into space, each of those careers are hard on personal spiritual development and morality due to not only the demands they place on the individual, but even just the overall general environment so none of them look to me like 'good' choices if one wants to live a life in the world, but not of it with relative ease.

OTOH, few other life choices allows someone to reach out with a message better, at least in terms of numbers. The groundwork can be laid to allow others to yield a wider harvest of investigators. I remember when the Osmonds were big, it is astonishing to me how they managed just by their existence to raise the interest in their faith and bring others into it. My first roommate at BYU was converted because of them making an impression on her. It shocked me at the time, I thought that kind of impact was just a faith promoting story.

Different people have different missions in life, which may require different sacrifices. I would never encourage someone to chose a path that prevents them from fully fulfilling a commandment to the best of their ability, but if they have sincerely prayed about it and received a positive answer, I am not the one to tell them it is not what the Lord wants for them.

true, I think of Kresimir Cosic of BYOU Basketball fame

[rongo]

Cosic is *huge* in and around Yugoslavia. The branch president in Wilhelmshaven (on the North Sea) was Croatian, and he was delighted that I knew a lot about Cosic. He translated the Book of Mormon into Croatian when he went back home (after joining the Church here) and continued to have a big effect in the Church there. He is a Church hero in that region.

[telnetd]

Why is one held up to be a good example yet the other isn't? Why don't we hear about Steve Young in Conference?

Don't only focus on those who play football. Also consider those who watch sports on Sunday.

"Our prophets have told us that we should not shop, hunt, fish, attend sports events, or

participate in similar activities on that day" (Gospel Principles).

Gail

[Tacenda]

Don't only focus on those who play football. Also consider those who watch sports on Sunday.

"Our prophets have told us that we should not shop, hunt, fish, attend sports events, or

participate in similar activities on that day" (Gospel Principles).

Gail

Or be a slouch and not reach out to the sick and lonely. See how all of this talk is useless? What would the Lord think of Steve Young if he stops by a cancer ward at a hospital right after work on Sunday vs. the slouch!?

[Duncan]

Don't only focus on those who play football. Also consider those who watch sports on Sunday.

"Our prophets have told us that we should not shop, hunt, fish, attend sports events, or

participate in similar activities on that day" (Gospel Principles).

Gail

see, it pays spiritually not to be interested in sports! That's why when the NHL wasn't on strike on whatever, HNIC is on Saturday night!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It isn't a topic worth judging people about. I suppose I could have picked a profession long ago which didn't require me to work an occasional Sunday and miss my meetings. I could have been letter carrier instead of a lawyer. But I picked the profession I picked and to keep it I must work on a few Sundays.

I think the New Testament view is correct: ""The Sabbath was made to meet the needs of people, and not people to meet the requirements of the Sabbath."

But I am guessing you chose a profession that was geared toward helping others, like healthcare, not entertainment and as such treated by the Church as a VIP, or a model for how to live.

[thesometimesaint]

Most professional sport games have a limited season. Attend church as often as you can in the off season. It's a different story with those in profession like policemen, firemen, hospital works, and the like.

[Judd]

Or be a slouch and not reach out to the sick and lonely. See how all of this talk is useless? What would the Lord think of Steve Young if he stops by a cancer ward at a hospital right after work on Sunday vs. the slouch!?

False dichotomy.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Most professional sport games have a limited season. Attend church as often as you can in the off season. It's a different story with those in profession like policemen, firemen, hospital works, and the like.

Police, nurses, hospitals are more noble.

[thesometimesaint]

I tend to agree. I'm not a big fan of professional sports(Before I became disabled I'd rather have played a game of pickup baseball, or flag (American style)football)) than watch any game on the TV, but I'm not the judge of anyone's nobility let alone righteousness.

Edited November 18, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I tend to agree. I'm not a big fan of professional sports(Before I became disabled I'd rather have played a game of pickup baseball, or flag (American style)football)) than watch any game on the TV, but I'm not the judge of anyone's nobility let alone righteousness.

I love Football, it is just sad it is only played (for the most part) on Sunday.

[telnetd]

Or be a slouch and not reach out to the sick and lonely. See how all of this talk is useless? What would the Lord think of Steve Young if he stops by a cancer ward at a hospital right after work on Sunday vs. the slouch!?

I think the Lord would approve of Steve's actions in this case and disapprove of

the slouch.

But on the topic of the church's teaching - "Our prophets have told us that we

should not shop, hunt, fish, attend sports events, or participate in similar activities

on that day".

Is this a sign of the legalism that might have been created by the Sadducees or

Pharisees if they had the entertainment we have today? What do you think?

Gail

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Or be a slouch and not reach out to the sick and lonely. See how all of this talk is useless? What would the Lord think of Steve Young if he stops by a cancer ward at a hospital right after work on Sunday vs. the slouch!?

Not sure of your point...could you expand? No harm intended, just wondering.

[Tacenda]

Not sure of your point...could you expand? No harm intended, just wondering.

I can honestly say I'm the slouch in this scenario more often than I'd like to admit. I was also thinking we can do more even if we do our obligatory church attendance. Maybe some of us think we're doing enough just by going to church only. Where the Lord looks on the hearts of people it might not be enough. And I'm sure most of us here have seen those lists on things we can do on the Sabbath such as write a missionary, write in our journals, visit the lonely, and on and on. Does this make sense? Edited November 19, 2012 by Tacenda