Lamanite Identities

[rodheadlee]

No sorry, not on hand. But I should be able to dig some up when I get my books out of the garage and onto my book shelves.

Yes, definately. There are also corresponding legends from the point of origin in at lest one of the lands from the east.

I have no idea, that is probably a question that should be directed at Lamanite who is Tongan.

Thanks! I appreciate you.

[mfbukowski]

Nope, not correct at all. What tribe, sub-tribe, status in each and qualification for education played a significant role in what one knew about the legends. Oral tradition on these matters varies from tribe to tribe, as does custom, law, lore and even language. Some tribes do indeed have legends that go back that far, their origin has a name and a description of the layout and features of the land as does the first, second and third destinations of their migration - all had long before the British invasion and even longer before the scholars turned up. Descriptions of their original homeland, passed down via oral tradition, played a role in the conversion of many Maori from the East Coast of New Zealand, not so much from the Northern area of New Zealand where the legends are a little different.

This is off topic but I wonder if you or someone else could help me with the correct pronunciation of the word "Maori" We Americans typically pronounce it something like "Mowery" but I notice that New Zealanders, who should know better than we do, pronounce it more like "Maudi" with a nod I think to a rolled "r" tossed into a NZ acccent.

I have also heard it pronounced almost exactly like the name "Mary".

So what is the correct pronunciation? How does a Maori pronounce it?

Edited October 19, 2012 by mfbukowski

[volgadon]

The references to Judah are mainly about the possibly fictional man Judah as a personification of the tribe Judah.

Never been a particularly impressive theory, to be honest.

[CV75]

I'm not going to pretend that the bible doesn't have horrible racist material in it, but these examples aren't among them. There was no racial curse put upon Judah or David. The Jews, and the descendants of David, were not racially distinct from any other Canaanites of their era. The references to Judah are mainly about the possibly fictional man Judah as a personification of the tribe Judah. Thus, it is about politics, rather than race. The curse on David's house was political as well, not racial.

A curse is a curse (of course, or course)--so who is to say which kind is worse (and both are likely to empty the purse)? Or which resentment is worth it to nurse it? I say it's in your head!

(Sing to the tune of "Mr. Ed")

[rodheadlee]

This is off topic but I wonder if you or someone else could help me with the correct pronunciation of the word "Maori" We Americans typically pronounce it something like "Mowery" but I notice that New Zealanders, who should know better than we do, pronounce it more like "Maudi" with a nod I think to a rolled "r" tossed into a NZ acccent.

I have also heard it pronounced almost exactly like the name "Mary".

So what is the correct pronunciation? How does a Maori pronounce it?

I was taught the letters have a Latin ( IE Spanish alphabet) pronuciation and you pronounce all the vowels when attempting to speak a Polynesian language..I could be wrong though, it's been known to happen before

So I would say it Ma-o-ri.

Edited October 19, 2012 by rodheadlee

[mfbukowski]

I was taught the letters have a Latin ( IE Spanish alphabet) pronuciation and you pronounce all the vowels when attempting to speak a Polynesian language..I could be wrong though, it's been known to happen before

So I would say it Ma-o-ri.

I think you are right.

But do you roll the "R" or not? That would give it the "D" sound I hear from some New Zealanders version of it, insofar as those folks speak English anyway

[rodheadlee]

I think you are right.

But do you roll the "R" or not? That would give it the "D" sound I hear from some New Zealanders version of it, insofar as those folks speak English anyway

I believe you give it a minor roll as in Spanish. I've never actually been to NZ. I learned a bit in Nuku Hiva, Tutuila and Tahiti/ Society Islands. They are all different languages or variations. I didn't do well, I kept trying to speak Spanish to everybody as I spent 2 years in Mexico. I believe in (Raiatea Society Islands) you don't roll the R. Sorry I can't find my Polynesian Language Guide. I hope it turns up, we're packing to leave, go sail about. WooooHooooo!

[Bikeemikey]

I think you are right.

But do you roll the "R" or not? That would give it the "D" sound I hear from some New Zealanders version of it, insofar as those folks speak English anyway

Growing up in NZ with a lot of Maori on the in law side of the family we always pronounced it with a little d in there (at the correction of the Maori in laws).

Ended up as "moudy" with an emphasis on a long and heavy oooo in the middle there.

No idea if that is right - I have heard it pronounced so many different ways.

Cheers.

[mfbukowski]

Growing up in NZ with a lot of Maori on the in law side of the family we always pronounced it with a little d in there (at the correction of the Maori in laws).

Ended up as "moudy" with an emphasis on a long and heavy oooo in the middle there.

No idea if that is right - I have heard it pronounced so many different ways.

Cheers.

Thanks. Yep that is close to the way I have heard it, but I remember it more like "maudy", but I could be wrong. Anybody else?

[mfbukowski]

I believe you give it a minor roll as in Spanish. I've never actually been to NZ. I learned a bit in Nuku Hiva, Tutuila and Tahiti/ Society Islands. They are all different languages or variations. I didn't do well, I kept trying to speak Spanish to everybody as I spent 2 years in Mexico. I believe in (Raiatea Society Islands) you don't roll the R. Sorry I can't find my Polynesian Language Guide. I hope it turns up, we're packing to leave, go sail about. WooooHooooo!

Dang, I'm jealous! Have a really good one!

Just curious- what kind of provisions do you take with you, foodwise?

[Kemara]

"Mowery", "Maudi", "Mary".

No, no and no. And to everyone else who gave it a go, good try, but no. Have a look at this from 3:33 to 4:40 my Auntie uses the word Maori a few times. She speaks the traditional Moari language and pronounces the word in the traditinal manner and not in the language that is taught today. You will hear many Moari who speak the non-traditional language pronounce the word as "Mardy".

[media=]

Edited October 20, 2012 by Kemara

[why me]

The Book of Mormon (and the bible) is full of improbable and sometimes impossible things. If the Brother of Jared could literally move a mountain with the sound of his voice, then certainly a Lamanite's skin color can suddenly turn white she becomes righteous. If we are going to reject this miraculous change in skin color, lets reject it because it is racist, not because it is improbable.

I would be pretty angry to suddenly wake up and find my skin a different color because I am now righteous. My whole identity would be taken away from me. I think that we can translate their whiteness to pureness. I think that in the book of mormon whiteand pure seem to mesh quite well.

[mfbukowski]

No, no and no. And to everyone else who gave it a go, good try, but no. Have a look at this from 3:33 to 4:40 my Auntie uses the word Maori a few times. She speaks the traditional Moari language and pronounces the word in the traditinal manner and not in the language that is taught today. You will hear many Moari who speak the non-traditional language pronounce the word as "Mardy".

YES! Thanks- that was exactly what I was looking for. Indeed the "R" is rolled into a D sound. And yes, I did not want to say it but I heard "Mardy" from someone who self-identified as a Maori and she was from NZ as well.

Well that settles it.

Let me ask you something here and then if you like we can discuss it by PM. I will have to spell this phonetically since I don't know how to do it better than that, but do you know of any stories about an early Mormon missionary to the Maori known as James Fisher, or among the Maori as something like "Aimee Peehaw?" He is a relative.

Edited October 20, 2012 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

duplicate

Edited October 20, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Kemara]

I would be pretty angry to suddenly wake up and find my skin a different color because I am now righteous. My whole identity would be taken away from me.

Your identity is defined by the colour of your skin? Oh please.

[Kemara]

Let me ask you something here and then if you like we can discuss it by PM. I will have to spell this phonetically since I don't know how to do it better than that, but do you know of any stories about an early Mormon missionary to the Maori known as James Fisher, or among the Maori as something like "Aimee Peehaw?" He is a relative.

Sorry I am not going to be much help to you on this one, but I know some avenues you might want to try, I'll PM you.

[rodheadlee]

Dang, I'm jealous! Have a really good one!

Just curious- what kind of provisions do you take with you, foodwise?

We take rice and pasta, cold ceral, boxed UHT milk, tinned butter when we can find it (they don't require refrigeration until opened). We'll have fresh bread from the bread machine every now and then. We only have fresh veggies and meat for about a week. Our longest run on this trip should be about 7 days.

We make between 100nm ot 150nm per day depending on wind and currents. Plan A is Brunswick, GA to Palm Beach, FL to Key West FL, about 550 nm (nautical miles) total. Then Key West to Grand Cayman Is, about 576nm, then to Isla Providencia, about 400nm then to Panama, about 300nm to the Canal. Then when we get through to the proper ocean we'll decide which way to go, probably north to California. I need to work for a year or so to build up the cruising kitty to go back to Polynesia which is the ultimate goal for me. My wife would prefer to stay in Mexico in the Sea of Cortez

[Stargazer]

Inasmuch as my ancestry includes my full-blood Maidu Konkow great great grandmother, I am one of those who might be regarded as having Lamanite descent. However, my tribe was historically located in Northern California, apparently far from the most likely (IMHO) concentration of Lehite descendants in Meso-America. Sufficiently far from them that I highly doubt we were Lamanites.

Like Lamanite says of himself, I am OK with that.

By the way, the tribal website features a picture of my great great grandmother. Go to http://maidu.com/ and scroll down to the montage of portraits just above the link to Ghost Indians of California. The rather dignified elderly lady in the top half of the montage, second from the right, is Yo-he-ma, also known as Katie Clark, my ancestor.

But who knows? Maybe some Lehites came north far enough to make me a Lamanite.

[canard78]

I may have missed it as the thread has more splinters than a bad carpenter... But did anyone address the question earlier about why Hagoth (a Nephite) made the Polynesians Lamanites?

If he is (one of) their ancestors then why Lamanites not Nephits? When you read about the migrations in Alma 63, three things strike me. First, some of the migrations seem fairly local (at least local enough that the boats returns for a second trip and Corianton set out to take them extra provisions, vv. 6 & 10).

Second, v7, Hagoth didn't go on the first expedition. He was still making boats. He went on the second trip, which went to the land northward... Not the Islands south-westward. In v8 it says they were never heard of again so maybe when setting out North they got caught in some rip current that dumped them in Polynesia.

Third, the people in chapter 63 that went (from central America?) to populate the land northward and the western isles of the sea share one key characteristic: they are Nephites.

If the children of Hagoth and the migratory Nephites are the ancestors why do we have decades of GAs talking about Lamanites in Polynesia/North America? (Editing my own post: we don't... see note and then second post later)

Is 'Lamanite' simply a label of covenience for all indiginous people of Polynesia and North/South America. Is another aspect of the gospel that is taught literally but meant symbolically?

Edit: I think I (and many like me) have made the connection about Polynesia and Lamanites through various quotes and misquotes about Hagoth. Having tried to dig further in this, all of the quotes I can find by GAs (usually in sources like temple dedications or area conferences) say 'Lehites' or 'Hagoth' - they don't actually call Polynesians Lamanites, with the exception of President Kimball's statement of all Indians (polynisia/american) are Lamanites.

Edited October 21, 2012 by canard78

[CV75]

I may have missed it as the thread has more splinters than a bad carpenter... But did anyone address the question earlier about why Hagoth (a Nephite) made the Polynesians Lamanites?

If he is (one of) their ancestors then why Lamanites not Nephits? When you read about the migrations in Alma 63, three things strike me. First, some of the migrations seem fairly local (at least local enough that the boats returns for a second trip and Corianton set out to take them extra provisions, vv. 6 & 10).

Second, v7, Hagoth didn't go on the first expedition. He was still making boats. He went on the second trip, which went to the land northward... Not the Islands south-westward. In v8 it says they were never heard of again so maybe when setting out North they got caught in some rip current that dumped them in Polynesia.

Third, the people in chapter 63 that went (from central America?) to populate the land northward and the western isles of the sea share one key characteristic: they are Nephites.

If the children of Hagoth and the migratory Nephites are the ancestors why do we have decades of GAs talking about Lamanites in Polynesia/North America?

Is 'Lamanite' simply a label of covenience for all indiginous people of Polynesia and North/South America. Is another aspect of the gospel that is taught literally but meant symbolically?

This is interesting because I always heard "descendants of Hagoth" without specifying which group he belonged to. Hagoth was certainly a Nephite, but perhaps due to the universal apostasy all Lehites get casually labeled "Lamanites." I personally use the term "Lehites" myself. Perhaps Hagoth and others who left the Book or Mormon lands kept a record that will someday confirm that the Lord visited them as well, as might have been the case as indicated in the Book of Mormon.

[canard78]

This is interesting because I always heard "descendants of Hagoth" without specifying which group he belonged to. Hagoth was certainly a Nephite, but perhaps due to the universal apostasy all Lehites get casually labeled "Lamanites." I personally use the term "Lehites" myself. Perhaps Hagoth and others who left the Book or Mormon lands kept a record that will someday confirm that the Lord visited them as well, as might have been the case as indicated in the Book of Mormon.

Thanks, you make a valid point. Most of the quotes about Polynesians are about 'Children of Lehi' and 'Hagoth.' Like this one:

You brethren and sisters from New Zealand, I want you to know that you are from the people of Hagoth. (New Zealand Area Conference Report, 20–22 Feb. 1976, p. 3)

(assuming this one genuine... I've not been able to find this on a more official church site... just repeated a few times on personal sites/blogs.

This statement though is more specific (still on lds.org and in the Ensign):

With pride I tell those who come to my office that a Lamanite is a descendant of one Lehi who left Jerusalem some 600 years before Christ and with his family crossed the mighty deep and landed in America. And Lehi and his family became the ancestors of all of the Indian and Mestizo tribes in North and South and Central America and in the islands of the sea, for in the middle of their history there were those who left America in ships of their making and went to the islands of the sea…they are in nearly all the islands of the sea from Hawaii south to southern New Zealand…Today we have many Lamanite leaders in the Church. For example, in Tonga, where 20 percent of all the people in the islands belong to the Church, we have three large stakes. Two of them are presided over wholly by Lamanites and the other almost wholly by them. There are three stakes in Samoa and another is to be organized in those small Samoan islands. Four more stakes with Lamanite leaders!... The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people . . . . There are no blessings, of all the imaginable ones, to which you are not entitled–you, the Lamanites–when you are righteous. You are of royal blood, the children of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Lehi

I imagine that's the quote that's triggered a generation of Mormon self-designated Lamanites, especially given its prominence in a church publication, rather than a dedicatory prayer or area conference.

When I read the quote above, I can't help but read it as a 'catch-all' expression. It sounds like quite a literal definition, but I wonder whether it's more of a symbolic message, a message of inclusiveness. We know that President Kimball was one of the people keen to seek a resolution to Blacks and the priesthood. I wonder whether this was another form of racial inclusiveness. By 'labelling' all North/Central/South American natives, plus the Polynesians as children of Lehi, that instantly gave them special status within the church and encouraged acceptance.

[Calm]

I think it was more likely originally a result of the commonly believed hemispheric geography theory. With the more limited geographies becoming more popular, the concept that a man living 2000 or more years ago if he had children, would be a common ancestor of millions of people currently living, similar to the concept that pretty much all Europeans are descendants of Charlemagne even if there isn't some genetic marker that identifies them as such so there is no reason to change the belief that Lamanites (descendants of the Lehite party) are all over the Westren Hemisphere.

Just because an ancestor may not have contributed any identifiable genes to his descendants, it does no somehow mystically or scientifically cause him to cease being their ancestor or them his down the line children.

And with the tradition of migration firmly established among the Lehites, it should hardly be surprising if their descendants were found all over the place.

As far as labelling the descendants as Lamanites rather than Nephites, that likely comes from two ideas from the BoM itself, Nephi's prophecy that his descendants would be destroyed/absorbed into the Lamanites and Moroni's witness this was happening on his local level with no further information/revelation of believers that might have possibly identified themselves as Nehphites due to the tradition existing after Moroni's death, by which time Lamanites and Nephites had devolved into less of a lineage designation and more of a political one.

Edited October 21, 2012 by calmoriah

[telnetd]

The Lamanites are the heirs of the prophetic promises of the Book of Mormon. Perhaps you might try reading it sometime. Those promises are well worth inheriting.

Regards,

Pahoran

The term "Lamanites" is mentioned a few times in the Doctrine and Covenants,

specifically section 28:8-9 and 54:8.

"And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and

preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings

thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt

have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment. And now,

behold, I say unto you that it is not revealed, and no man knoweth where

the city Zion shall be built, but it shall be given hereafter. Behold, I say unto

you that it shall be on the borders by the Lamanites".

"And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the

land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites".

If these Lamanites are the Native American Indians and not some other group,

how did Joseph Smith know their identity?

Gail

[Lamanite]

I wonder whether it's more of a symbolic message, a message of inclusiveness.

I've considered this before and as an idea it has some merit, but in my opinion he meant exactly what he said.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[CV75]

I imagine that's the quote that's triggered a generation of Mormon self-designated Lamanites, especially given its prominence in a church publication ...It sounds like quite a literal definition

Let’s say the Church’s definition allows that the term “Lehite/Lamanite descendant” applies to those found on the American continent(s), Oceania, and even eastward and elsewhere. That would be fulfillment of prophesy in 1 Nephi 13 and 14.

1 Nephi 13: 34 says the seed of Lehi is a remnant of Israel even though it is destroyed as a distinct people (verse 35). 1 Nephi 14:1-2 says that the Gentiles “shall be numbered among the seed of thy father.” So these adopted Lehites may be among those across the Western Hemisphere and into Asia where the Church grew (and will grow) so quickly, since “blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day (verse 37).”