Calm Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) Just for the record, your meaning is clear and has been from the beginning. I got it instantly and agree with you completely. Some are just dense I guess but it is not due to your manner of presentation- I found it crystal clear.Same here. It brought to mind some Asian demon and Canadian hockey masks, kids outdoing each other on Halloween, biker gangs...at least the way they've been portrayed on TV (remember the Mad Max movies?), fencing scars from duelling and quite a few other things where ugliness and horror are seen as desirable. Edited November 10, 2012 by calmoriah
volgadon Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 It is disturbing that you find these Polynesian displays an expression of "loathsomeness." I don't think you understand what they are doing at all, and frankly, it's rather offensive. These are displays of war-like prowess and domination over their opponents. These people are not trying to show people how ugly and revolting they are. That you seem to think this makes me sad.War-like prowess, what a limp, colourless, and tepid phrase. Great way to obscure a message which essentially says the following. If you touch us, not only will we strike back, not only will we kill you, we'll utterly destroy you and yours in ways so cruel that your blood will curdle at the mere thought of it, a destruction so unimaginable that people will not forget it in a thousand years.Similar to the sentiment expressed by the mutilated and dying Parcy Reid in the old border ballad. "My foes have made me ill to ken (know)." 3
blackstrap Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 Thanks,Kemara,for the insight and evidence you provide. 1
mfbukowski Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 War-like prowess, what a limp, colourless, and tepid phrase. Great way to obscure a message which essentially says the following. If you touch us, not only will we strike back, not only will we kill you, we'll utterly destroy you and yours in ways so cruel that your blood will curdle at the mere thought of it, a destruction so unimaginable that people will not forget it in a thousand years.Similar to the sentiment expressed by the mutilated and dying Parcy Reid in the old border ballad. "My foes have made me ill to ken (know)."Worse yet. "We will EAT you".Somehow, uh, I find that intimidating silly little white boy that I am. 1
volgadon Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 Worse yet. "We will EAT you".Somehow, uh, I find that intimidating silly little white boy that I am. Or drink chicha from your skull... 1
mfbukowski Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 Or drink chicha from your skull...I've heard that gives you a headache, but that's a little more than I think they were talking about.... 1
Kemara Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 Worse yet. "We will EAT you". Worse yet. If only you knew what part gets eaten on some occasions. 1
mfbukowski Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 Worse yet. If only you knew what part gets eaten on some occasions. OwwwweeeyySomehow, uh, I find that intimidating silly little white boy that I am. Somehow that makes me even littler and whiter! 2
blackstrap Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 Hang on, us Viking types were reported to be quite scary at one time. Now,of course,we are to well " socialized ". 1
volgadon Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 Of course, there is also the Mormon missionary Haka, when it isn't being banned from zone conferences.
Calm Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) Any chance there is a vid out there of that one?Never mind, found some on my own. Edited November 10, 2012 by calmoriah
Scott Lloyd Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 Of course, there is also the Mormon missionary Haka, when it isn't being banned from zone conferences.Reminds me of a comment made by a black stake president who was illustrating the cultural diversity of his presidency. Of his first counselor, a Tongan, he said, "He does the haka and I do the hambone, but we both enjoy Motown." 2
volgadon Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 Any chance there is a vid out there of that one?I found this. I think this is even from the mission my friend's brother served in (one of my sources for the story), but after his time.
Calm Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) I've gotten hooked on watching these things. Watched about a half dozen different ones on Youtube. There is something very compelling about them....though I wasn't impressed by an English version done by missionaries. The language just doesn't work as well. Edited November 10, 2012 by calmoriah
mfbukowski Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 I've gotten hooked on watching these things. Watched about a half dozen different ones on Youtube. There is something very compelling about them....I agree. I am not sure what it is. Whatever it is, it really communicates on total gut level which is very unusual in our electronic, cerebral, and hermetically sealed culture. We are so verbal, but this is in-your-face communication on a totally different level.
Calm Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 I finally got to sleep for a few minutes (my grandkids came in to say goodbye after our sleepover has finally come to an end) and I started dreaming about them.
volgadon Posted November 11, 2012 Posted November 11, 2012 I've gotten hooked on watching these things. Watched about a half dozen different ones on Youtube. There is something very compelling about them....though I wasn't impressed by an English version done by missionaries. The language just doesn't work as well.Was it the burning bush one? Couldn't stand more than 1/2 a minute.
Calm Posted November 11, 2012 Posted November 11, 2012 Was it the burning bush one? Couldn't stand more than 1/2 a minute.No, it was a very short one that used a Book of Mormon. It wasn't creative and didn't have anything of real meaning being conveyed that struck me like the orignal haka Kemara posted where they are talking about ancestors and their connection to them, the purpose of life and embracing it and stuff like that. It came across of more of a checklist. The movements were showing reading the book, praying, that kind of stuff, which seemed very awkward and forced. I understand they were going for humour and it wasn't supposed to be an actual spiritual ritual but rather just goofing, but it just didn't work imo. Humour at least needs to show some effort of thought.I am being way too harsh. I have to remember that filming oneself these days doesn't mean one thinks one is doing something significant, that the most trivial of things are being put up on Youtube and people are posting what they eat for breakfast so it is not really appropriate to judge it like it was supposed to be some Broadway production or academic discourse.
bcuzbcuz Posted November 11, 2012 Posted November 11, 2012 You did not watch the first video clip did you?I watched the first clip now, I'm assuming you mean the one with your auntie. I've heard similar discussions amongst the Tl'azt'enne, the Nak'azdli nation and the Yekooche all of which I worked and lived amongst for 8 years. My foster child is Tl'azt'enne and I raised her with as full interaction with her mother's band as physically possible. We have attended potlatches over a 20 year period and a wide variety of national and international PowWows. My oldest son is married into the Haida Gwai nation and I worked amonst the non-reserve youth of the Snuneymuxw nation for eight years, as well as on reserve for the Ahousat Nuu-chah-nulth nation. None of this makes me native but i have a lot more understanding now. The most telling lessons I learned were while sitted round a glowing hot, pot belly, stove drinking tea in the middle of winter with the tribal elders. I was considered fairly smart for a nado-san since I listened more than I talked. And I never heard any elders describe themselves in negative or derogatory terms. They had little respect, though, for apples...red on the outside but white on the inside...for people who abandoned the traditional ways both in language and beliefs.My opposition to the terminology of "dark and loathsome people" comes from these experiences.
Kemara Posted November 11, 2012 Posted November 11, 2012 (edited) I watched the first clip now, I'm assuming you mean the one with your auntie.No.Please watch the following video clip. I would recommend watching from at least 0:28 and pay particular attention to what is being said from 1:16.[media=] Edited November 11, 2012 by Kemara
volgadon Posted November 11, 2012 Posted November 11, 2012 I watched the first clip now, I'm assuming you mean the one with your auntie. I've heard similar discussions amongst the Tl'azt'enne, the Nak'azdli nation and the Yekooche all of which I worked and lived amongst for 8 years. My foster child is Tl'azt'enne and I raised her with as full interaction with her mother's band as physically possible. We have attended potlatches over a 20 year period and a wide variety of national and international PowWows. My oldest son is married into theHaida Gwai nation and I worked amonst the non-reserve youth of the Snuneymuxw nation for eight years, as well as on reserve for the Ahousat Nuu-chah-nulth nation.None of this makes me native but i have a lot more understanding now. The most telling lessons I learned were while sitted round a glowing hot, pot belly, stove drinking tea in the middle of winter with the tribal elders. I was considered fairly smart for a nado-san since I listened more than I talked. And I never heard any elders describe themselves in negative or derogatory terms. They had little respect, though, for apples...red on the outside but white on the inside...for people who abandoned the traditional ways both in language and beliefs.My opposition to the terminology of "dark and loathsome people" comes from these experiences.Look for the Dances of Life clip. "The ugliest man..."
Kemara Posted November 11, 2012 Posted November 11, 2012 I was considered fairly smart for a nado-san since I listened more than I talked. And I never heard any elders describe themselves in negative or derogatory terms.My opposition to the terminology of "dark and loathsome people" comes from these experiences. What on earth does this have to do with how the Maori view the world? You wont hear Maori describe themselves in negative or derogatory terms either. Maori dont view those terms as negative or derogatory in certain contexts. It is you who is placing a negative connotation on the words, it is not how Maori see it. They view those terms as postive and favorable, as something to be admired, something to obtain, something of immense value. My appreciation of the terminology comes from these experiences. 1
bcuzbcuz Posted November 11, 2012 Posted November 11, 2012 Look for the Dances of Life clip. "The ugliest man..."One ugly does not a theory make.
Kemara Posted November 11, 2012 Posted November 11, 2012 One ugly does not a theory make. LOLOLOL, bcuzbcuz you are so funny!!! :rofl: Thanks, that bit of humourous entertainment has given me a great laugh and made my day. :rofl: 1
Deardorff Posted November 11, 2012 Posted November 11, 2012 I am still waiting for the Brethren to produce a verifiable "Lamanite".A population of two distinct groups who warred and had periods of piece and intermixing with great cities, industries and agriculture finally ending when one exterminated the other would leave a lot of evidence. Nothing from them has been found and church leadership apparently won't or can't address the reality of this. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and even Spencer Kimball spoke about who these people were but today no one can find any of them as they back off from anything definitive when asked.One does that when they are covering things up or to avoid being caught in lies.
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